The good, the bad, and the Willow

[SuperPsiPower]

So I know that for a very long time that Willow has remained a fragile topic in Don't Starve Together, and I also know that many people are sick of hearing about this topic; however I feel that it's really important to discuss this. 

A couple years ago, Willow remained as she was when converted from Singleplayer to Multiplayer, but her potential in PvP and such was fanominal. However, since her changes - She remained the undisputed least usable character in the game up till now. Some people had even said they'd prefer playing Wes over Willow. 

I'm here to remedy this - Please remove her Sanity debuff and Willow won't be a liability anymore. I know some of you people will say "Well, her teddy bear helps with Sanity issues!" or even "Just carry a thermal stone and you won't freeze!". That's not the point. Why make a character who used to be so much fun to play, be nerfed so badly? It's just so unfortunate that even Wes, who was highly regarded as "Hard-mode" is more played then Willow, simply because her debuffs make her annoying to play as, and provides no real benefit. Naturally this was a huge blow to anyone who consistently played Willow and even loved her character. I'm not asking to add some special perk or add a new balance, but please just do us all a favor and make Willow a good character again by removing her sanity debuff. 

[WillowCrocker]

You've beckoned me! Don't you people know by now these topics always rattle my cage?

Anyway, I agree. It's like people can't grief with any other character just as easily as with Willow - the immunity is so weak at this point that it's basically useless, and a torch is the cheapest thing to make in a game. You can do that with literally any character just as easily as with Willow, so I see no issue with giving her fire immunity back. I feel like the sanity level is more story-based than gameplay based, if you want to know, but it was fine in Don't Starve - she just needs that special immunity to fire back to make her really stand out again. 

[AnonymousKoala]

Willow's shtick was immunity to fire, thus being able to use it in ways others couldn't. She could regain full sanity in seconds(only sacrifice was your framerate), burn things in inventory for extra dps(without needing a scalemail, allowing you to do this with an armor that doesnt set things on fire), fire farm for sanity as well as the other reasons(though that wont work in dst), etc. etc.

 

Honestly, for lighter I think it should've stayed infinite(since as it stands there's no reason really to take it over a torch once it runs out), but if its too far away from willow for too long, it just despawns and jumps into her inventory. 

For fires, I don't really get the nerf with fire immunity(outside of pvp, but fire isn't the big killer in pvp is it? Anything that puts you to sleep is, wolfgang being wolfgang, wicker, etc.). 

 

If you'd have to stay with fire "resistance", at least have her regain a lot more sanity from fire, at least that. In fact it would even offer a cool benefit, controlling your temprature via your sanity level(Willow still is decent for late joiners, since in winter with the lighter you can warm up as you go by burning stuff, and in summer find ways to reduce sanity to cool down) and fire. If the lighter must stay craftable and such, make it so that you can't regain sanity from a torch in inventory, but you can from the lighter.

[Grunko64]

This has been my biggest disappointment with DST... the character nerfing. Maybe I'm just really lucky, but I've only ever encountered one griefer in 100+ hours of DST. I mostly avid public servers but still, all the nerfs to characters to prevent griefing and balance pvp not only ruin the characters for me, but have almost no effect.

If people want to grief, they will still grief, and honestly only about 2% fo servers are pvp. Even with pvp on, it's pointless to try to balance the characters for pvp - the problem with woodie was that werebeaver would be too strong in pvp, but have they nerfed wigfrid or wolfgang? The characters are inherently good at different things and not completely balanced so it makes me really sad to see characters changed so much. I can't play woodie anymore because I hate the new woodie, and the willow situation is just so obviously stupid and ****** because you only need 2 grass and 2 twigs to make a torch.

[Arlesienne]

I hear you, ladies and gentlemen. And join your chorus.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

I'll just summarise my stance in points:

* Willow is immune to fire again

* Bernie damages nightmares upon being bitten (deals the same amount of damage to them as they deal to him)

* Willow's Lighter is exclusive to her, no longer has durability and cannot be crafted

* Upon putting a torch in hand slot, the torch will switch places with the Lighter for Willow players

* Willow's Lighter will slip out of other characters' inventory or equip slots if they have it/have picked it up and same goes to Willows who have more than one lighter

* Willow's temperature will gradually decrease based on her sanity level and she will fully start to freeze to a point of losing health only when her sanity is at 0

[GiddyGuy]

12 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Willow's Lighter is exclusive to her

12 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Willow's Lighter will slip out of other characters' inventory or equip slots if they have it/have picked it up and same goes to Willows who have more than one lighter

Well if you think about it the only item that players can't pick unless they're a certain character would be Lucy who is sentient, is Willow's lighter sentient? No.

[Arlesienne]

8 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said:

Well if you think about it the only item that players can't pick unless they're a certain character would be Lucy who is sentient, is Willow's lighter sentient? No.

Willow actually sounds very logical. I have a hard time picturing her while believing in a little pixie living in the lighter. Please don't hurt me.

[SuperPsiPower]

2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

*Willow's Lighter is exclusive to her, no longer has durability and cannot be crafted

* Upon putting a torch in hand slot, the torch will switch places with the Lighter for Willow players

2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Willow's Lighter will slip out of other characters' inventory or equip slots if they have it/have picked it up and same goes to Willows who have more than one lighter

These ideas are similar to what I was thinking, however it would be asking too much of Klei to code in all of that,and have Willow completely changed. All I asked was for her sanity debuff to be removed, then she would be less bad, even fun to use again. But yes, having a willow lighter transform into a torch after being abandoned would be a better change. Or even make it infinite use in Willow's hands and only lose durability when a non-willow picked it up and uses it.

Her immunity was probably removed because griefers and other players received no consequence by freely burning everything and running amok. 

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

13 minutes ago, SuperPsiPower said:

These ideas are similar to what I was thinking, however it would be asking too much of Klei to code in all of that,and have Willow completely changed. All I asked was for her sanity debuff to be removed, then she would be less bad, even fun to use again. But yes, having a willow lighter transform into a torch after being abandoned would be a better change. Or even make it infinite use in Willow's hands and only lose durability when a non-willow picked it up and uses it.

Her immunity was probably removed because griefers and other players received no consequence by freely burning everything and running amok. 

What? That's like a few lines of code to implement all that! It might take maximum... A day for them to implement these changes.

I would say that without most/all of what I've listed, she would be an interesting turn of a character, but kind of lame. Also, having Bernie follow her would be great (a running animation?). People might not like this, but I would rather if Bernie would only trigger upon a Willow's sanity going down. This way, it wouldn't be that people would simply want the bear and hate the Willow herself. And it's really her being useful too and not just the bear.

Losing hp from burning things... Well, most griefers don't care too much as they will burn down things anyway and then leave a few sevonds later, most likely. And seeing that removing her immunity didn't actually deal with griefing at all... Why not bring it back?

[Joachim]

28 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

What? That's like a few lines of code to implement all that! It might take maximum... A day for them to implement these changes.

I think you are underestimating the amount of work that it will take. It is not just coding, but also involves a lot of discussions and tests. They are not simply modders at Klei. They can't throw in a few things and release it just like that. They will have to ensure quality and balance. This takes time.

Either way, it is unlikely that Willow's old perks will be brought back.

[Frosty_Mentos]

I would rather have 2 changes for Willow: 1) Not freezing due to sanity 2) having her Bernie break when he is at 0% durability, because it becomes too common and too many, also can be stored in chests. Tho the thing that he breaks after a while being on ground should be removed, it's like someone goes insane, an abandoned (or something) Bernie is nearby goes to protect the newbie as long as he can, would be a fun thing if that would save a newbies life by Willow's teddybear

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

2 hours ago, Joachim said:

I think you are underestimating the amount of work that it will take. It is not just coding, but also involves a lot of discussions and tests. They are not simply modders at Klei. They can't throw in a few things and release it just like that. They will have to ensure quality and balance. This takes time.

Either way, it is unlikely that Willow's old perks will be brought back.

What? Hahaha! The current mechanics pretty much suck ass. How would they have collectively decided upon such rbbish? It's more like devs saw the complaints and then one of them quickly threw some random ideas in and hoped it would work. I'm serious though, this is how the current changes seem to have been implemented because of how badly they worked out.

[GuyNamedChris]

5 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

* Willow is immune to fire again Yes. The change to make Willow's fire resistance last (3 or 5, can't remember) seconds didn't seem that necessary.

* Bernie damages nightmares upon being bitten (deals the same amount of damage to them as they deal to him) No. Bernie was meant to be a distraction for insane people, and that's what he should stay as in my opinion.

* Willow's Lighter is exclusive to her, no longer has durability and cannot be crafted No. If you plan on having Willow keep her lighter cooking mechanic while scrapping durability, it would be completely overpowered. And in non-caves worlds, a lighter is equivalent to a lantern, as it could be easily recrafted by the Willow and gives a long lasting light, albeit not a lot of light radius, but it's renewable in a non-caves world, unlike the miners hat, which can only be refueled with nonrenewable fireflies.

* Upon putting a torch in hand slot, the torch will switch places with the Lighter for Willow players Why? It just seems like a so out-of-the-way change, maybe some Willow players want to use a torch for a larger light radius. Or maybe the Willow wants to save her lighter to cook some food on-the-go.

* Willow's Lighter will slip out of other characters' inventory or equip slots if they have it/have picked it up and same goes to Willows who have more than one lighter No. Like some others said, a lighter is not sentient like Lucy and would just make no sense that a normal everyday lighter would slip out of someone's hands. 

* Willow's temperature will gradually decrease based on her sanity level and she will fully start to freeze to a point of losing health only when her sanity is at 0 Yes. It would make Willow actually be able to farm nightmare fuel as long as her sanity is above zero,, but still in the insanity zone. The only time I can see this being a problem is in winter when you have the sanity freeze, and the winter freeze beating down on you at once. 

 

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

1 hour ago, Chris1488 said:

* Willow is immune to fire again Yes. The change to make Willow's fire resistance last (3 or 5, can't remember) seconds didn't seem that necessary.

* Bernie damages nightmares upon being bitten (deals the same amount of damage to them as they deal to him) No. Bernie was meant to be a distraction for insane people, and that's what he should stay as in my opinion.

* Willow's Lighter is exclusive to her, no longer has durability and cannot be crafted No. If you plan on having Willow keep her lighter cooking mechanic while scrapping durability, it would be completely overpowered. And in non-caves worlds, a lighter is equivalent to a lantern, as it could be easily recrafted by the Willow and gives a long lasting light, albeit not a lot of light radius, but it's renewable in a non-caves world, unlike the miners hat, which can only be refueled with nonrenewable fireflies.

* Upon putting a torch in hand slot, the torch will switch places with the Lighter for Willow players Why? It just seems like a so out-of-the-way change, maybe some Willow players want to use a torch for a larger light radius. Or maybe the Willow wants to save her lighter to cook some food on-the-go.

* Willow's Lighter will slip out of other characters' inventory or equip slots if they have it/have picked it up and same goes to Willows who have more than one lighter No. Like some others said, a lighter is not sentient like Lucy and would just make no sense that a normal everyday lighter would slip out of someone's hands. 

* Willow's temperature will gradually decrease based on her sanity level and she will fully start to freeze to a point of losing health only when her sanity is at 0 Yes. It would make Willow actually be able to farm nightmare fuel as long as her sanity is above zero,, but still in the insanity zone. The only time I can see this being a problem is in winter when you have the sanity freeze, and the winter freeze beating down on you at once. 

No.2 - Well, he isn't good enough to make Willow useful to others by being just a distraction, unless you're somewhere extremely early game, everyone is a complete noob or you're screwed, but a willow with a Bernie just happens to be nearby to "save" the day. You know what's a better "distraction" in general? Wes' goddamn balloons! Wes OP  !

No.3 - How would it be overpowered? If it's NOT CRAFTABLE and only Willow exclusive, it would give a good variation to playing as her. Besides, the current lighter mechanics make it completely not worth crafting nor using.

No.4 - Perhpas, but perhaps some Woodies want to use axes and golden axes or pick-axes? Perhaps the larger light radius has a point, though most people would probably resort to using lanterns and torches anyway, even if the old lighter mechanics were implemented, merely due to light radius.

No.5 - It's not just A Lighter, it's WILLOW's Lighter  plus this is a magical world and I doubt that initially the idea was that Willow crafted her lighter herself somehow, but more likely that it was given or gifted to her/she found it/bought it or something.

No.6 - Perhaps. Though, would it really be that hard to get your sanity just up to one for a brief few moments? And it would give her a challenge, considering that some with the suggestions I've presented consider her as OP for whatever reason. Having a crappy, but infinite light source, a teddy bear that farms nightmare fuel for you and having full fire immunity (but not heat immunity) is mainly just some conveniences that would too make Willow usable and wantable again (not just play-wise but group-help-wise as well). Like, consider how OP some other characters are. WX with lightning and gears? Wickerbottom with books? Wolfgang with damage, which only requires food that you're getting a bagillion of anyway, Wigfrid with her helmets and also a tad bit higher damage output. Each has some great buffs and has some great cons. Implement what I've suggested and Willow seems to fit more in with a lot of other characters; has some niche buffs, but also some disadvantages that you might wanna think about twice before choosing her as the character to play as. I mean, I would certainly play her with these changes, unless somebody else is playing as her. But right now, I'm just like... seriously, Klei? Seriously?

[GuyNamedChris]

33 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

No.2 - Well, he isn't good enough to make Willow useful to others by being just a distraction, unless you're somewhere extremely early game, everyone is a complete noob or you're screwed, but a willow with a Bernie just happens to be nearby to "save" the day. You know what's a better "distraction" in general? Wes' goddamn balloons! Wes OP  !

I don't think Bernie's that bad when you're being hounded by like, 2-3 terrorbeaks.

33 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

No.3 - How would it be overpowered? If it's NOT CRAFTABLE and only Willow exclusive, it would give a good variation to playing as her. Besides, the current lighter mechanics make it completely not worth crafting nor using.

It would be op because you can cook anything you want on the go, whilst having infinite light. What would you use for light in a non-caves world? Lanterns aren't a thing and miners hats are non-renewable. Torches would just swallow your materials on long nights.

33 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

No.4 - Perhpas, but perhaps some Woodies want to use axes and golden axes or pick-axes?

 He can  You just need to have Lucy in your inventory and it won't switch out.

Quote

No.5 - It's not just A Lighter, it's WILLOW's Lighter  plus this is a magical world and I doubt that initially the idea was that Willow crafted her lighter herself somehow, but more likely that it was given or gifted to her/she found it/bought it or something.

Sharing is caring. 

 

[Frosty_Mentos]

26 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

 

 a teddy bear that farms nightmare fuel for you 

This is a good feature that he distracts anyone's nightmares

 

29 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

 Having a crappy, but infinite light source

It's maybe crappy, but I don't like it being infinite, i like the idea that I can cook on it, also it's maybe not super good for others, but it's a nice lighter still. I don't like it being infinite cause it isn't super usable, but it is a nice longer torch and nice for joining late game, it comes in handy for me when I gotta cook things for me and friends, and it's enough light for some journeys 

[Frosty_Mentos]

14 minutes ago, Chris1488 said:

Sharing is caring. 

 

I like that

[PanAzej]

Lemme get on dat topic.

The entire concept of Willow is flawed.

Willow, The Firestarter - right from the start you can see a problem. It's like they made a character: The Destroyer. Starts with a hammer, gets sanity for each structure destroyed. Griefing is in the name.

She was fine in singleplayer, but doesn't work at all in multiplayer. Let's nerf her then, yeah?

No. That won't work.

Willow's freeze on low sanity - bad design. With other character you can see their cons - Wolfgang can see his Hunger Meter, Woodie can see his Log Meter. Willow starts freezing depending on her sanity value AND temperature of the environment, which you can't see. Her body temperature is a mystery (unless you use a mod, but that doesn't count). You know you're going to freeze about 3 seconds before it actually happens, that's bad and annoying.

Willow's fire immunity - basically removed. It's like Woodie would chop trees like all other characters, but does the job with one axe swing less. Wow, truly amazing. It doesn't even matter anymore.

Willow's sanity gain from fire buffed - it's still bad. Don't make mechanics that require to just stand in one place and wait, it's NOT FUN. And not interesting at all. It's boring.

Willow is pure crap, but she still has her items, right?

Bernie - I can see what they wanted to do here. Put a bear on the ground, make a fire and stand around until your sanity goes up, no need to worry about Nightmare Creatures. He's fine... I guess... just... why? Why would this thing even exist? He can be useful, sometimes. It's an item for bad players. Nothing more.

Willow's Lighter - nerfed. Now it has durability. But hey, Willow can cook on it! Which can be achieved with 2 logs and 3 grass. But hey, it's a light source! Inferior to Lantern, which lights a lot bigger area and inferior to a Torch, because it still lights a bigger area than Lighter and costs just 2 grass and 2 twigs... Yeah, Willow can't cook on it, whopp-de-doo. Other characters don't really need this item, so it's used only by Willows.

Willow needs to be re-purposed. Make her 'the fire master' or something. Let her not only make fires, but remove them or control the fire in some way. She's the worst character currently, and not in a good way, like Wes.

Oh, also let's not forget how Woodie doesn't need to exist anymore, since we have Maxwell that does his job like x10 better.

[Frosty_Mentos]

9 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

Willow, The Firestarter - right from the start you can see a problem. It's like they made a character: The Destroyer. Starts with a hammer, gets sanity for each structure destroyed. Griefing is in the name.

 

She likes fire, not Hammer Time

 

11 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

Willow's sanity gain from fire buffed - it's still bad. Don't make mechanics that require to just stand in one place and wait, it's NOT FUN. And not interesting at all. It's boring.

It is horrible, even tho she is mean to burn many things, but I wouldn't burn 9 logs for about 15 sanity and might get burned in the process

 

15 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

Willows Lighter - nerfed. Now it has durability. But hey, Willow can cook on it! Which can be achieved with 2 logs and 3 grass. But hey, it's a light source! Inferior to Lantern, which lights a lot bigger area and inferior to a Torch, because it still lights a bigger area than Lighter and costs just 2 grass and 2 twigs... Yeah, Willow can't cook on it, whopp-de-doo. Other characters don't really need this item, so it's used only by Willows.

Putting a fire everytime is just a waste of materials and time, I rather travel and cook, which is super useful

 

19 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

Bernie - I can see what they wanted to do here. Put a bear on the ground, make a fire and stand around until your sanity goes up, no need to worry about Nightmare Creatures. He's fine... I guess... just... why? Why would this thing even exist? He can be useful, sometimes. It's an item for bad players. Nothing more.

He was a part of a picture anyway, and we at least know that she was never alone :3

 

21 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

Willow needs to be re-purposed. Make her 'the fire master' or something. Let her not only make fires, but remove them or control the fire in some way. She's the worst character currently, and not in a good way, like Wes.

She ain't worst, but not that great. Wes is nice, he can make cute balloons which doesn't need that much purpose, it's also apparently a "distraction" which I dunno how it works.

Let's focus more on the fire immunity and the sanity freezing parts, which are MAJOR DOWNSIDES!

[Joachim]

3 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

What? Hahaha! The current mechanics pretty much suck ass. How would they have collectively decided upon such rbbish? It's more like devs saw the complaints and then one of them quickly threw some random ideas in and hoped it would work. I'm serious though, this is how the current changes seem to have been implemented because of how badly they worked out.

Nothing is perfect. The mechanics are not that bad. Perhaps Willow could use a small boost, but the game and the character are certainly not rubbish. You are clearly exaggerating here.

[Frosty_Mentos]

16 minutes ago, Joachim said:

Nothing is perfect. The mechanics are not that bad.

Yep. Btw, REMEMBER THAT THE GAME IS STILL IN DEVELOPMENT! Nothing will be perfect for quite a while because things needs to be created and tested. Also it feels like the whole dst thing is a huge social experiment or something xD. We wanted this, people are trying to think what else to add for us, they are trying THEIR BEST! That's why there are forums, we discuss things here and basically helping them to make this game evolved into something. This went off topic now. My point still stands on adding immunity to fire or making willow not freeze due to sanity problems OR both 

[PanAzej]

7 minutes ago, Mantas said:

She likes fire, not Hammer Time

It's a comparison. See, she's the firestarter. She starts fires. Fires can't be easily stopped in Don't Starve. Most of player's creations are flammable.

If Willow could stop fires more easily, that would make her actually useful, since there's no easy way to stop a fire. You either need a special item achievable only from Mosquitos (spawn only after the sunset and not possible to meet during the winter) or build a special machine with limited range.

14 minutes ago, Mantas said:

It is horrible, even tho she is mean to burn many things, but I wouldn't burn 9 logs for about 15 sanity and might get burned in the process

Yeah. Why would anybody bother, when you can just pick some Green Mushrooms or Cacti and not be tied to your Firepit a whole night?

19 minutes ago, Mantas said:

She ain't worst, but not that great. Wes is nice, he can make cute balloons which doesn't need that much purpose, it's also apparently a "distraction" which I dunno how it works.

Wes is bad on purpose, but even he doesn't have an invisible stat that can kill him/stop him from doing anything.

Balloons are 'a distraction', because they can be targeted by hostile enemies and if a Balloon is closer to your enemy than you, enemy will most probably attack a Balloon before you.

14 minutes ago, Joachim said:

Nothing is perfect. The mechanics are not that bad. Perhaps Willow could use a small boost, but the game and the character are certainly not rubbish. You are clearly exaggerating here.

They are pretty bad, I think. Also, introducing all the changes isn't that hard and time-consuming as you think. You're exaggerating. Seriously, have you tried modding? If you know what you're doing then things don't take forever. And even if something needs to be adjusted, it can be patched right away.

[Arlesienne]

19 minutes ago, Joachim said:

Nothing is perfect. The mechanics are not that bad. Perhaps Willow could use a small boost, but the game and the character are certainly not rubbish. You are clearly exaggerating here.

Agreed. Willow is not strong or very useful in DST, but I like her most for that snarky personality... And she can examine things unlike my other favourite Wes.

On my servers, I used to have Willow the Firestarter. But I prefer to code her perks through the LUA these days. I only make Bernie more durable, her fire immunity longer, and less damage from fire otherwise.

As useful as the lighter is, I wouldn't like it to be infinite. First, I craft them for all players. Secondly, it's sufficiently crazy to have an infinite TALKING axe. One wacky Lucy is enough. Lighters need fuel, making it lose durability makes sense. It COULD have a bigger radius, but it's a COULD, not a MUST.

[PanAzej]

13 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

As useful as the lighter is, I wouldn't like it to be infinite. First, I craft them for all players. Secondly, it's sufficiently crazy to have an infinite TALKING axe. One wacky Lucy is enough. Lighters need fuel, making it lose durability makes sense. It COULD have a bigger radius, but it's a COULD, not a MUST.

Make the lighter not use durability only for Willows then. Onequip if Willow removes finiteuses component, but the % gets saved in a variable. Done.