The Beaver Needs A Buff

[Axehilt]

4 hours ago, DarkXero said:

Well I wouldn't enjoy that masochism knowing that I could have done it with anybody else.

Perhaps masochists are already enjoying Wes, which was the intended end.

Also,

REMOVE BEAVER SANITY DRAIN

That's all for this thread.

There is absolutely no reason you couldn't enjoy a masochistically difficult survival game just because it offered multiple balanced characters. It would all be playstyle variations on the same brutal, doomed experience.  Why are you disagreeing simply for disagreement's sake?  There's clearly room for more than just one flavor of masochistically difficult experience in DST.

Removing the sanity drain would be excessive.  Calm and measured balanced changes are better than giant knee-jerk reactions. A small reduction to his sanity drain in Werebeaver form would be fine.  The sanity drain is there as the reason to not just stay in that form clearing an entire forest.

7 hours ago, GiddyGuy said:

Yeah but I didn't go on and on, and I was referring to the both of you, anyway I have better things to do than talk about satire so I bid thee adieu

Are you suggesting my 3 off-topic posts are "on and on" and your 3 off-topic posts aren't?  What's with the hypocrisy?

[rezecib]

11 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

There is absolutely no reason you couldn't enjoy a masochistically difficult survival game just because it offered multiple balanced characters.

It does offer multiple balanced characters, kind of. If you assume the non-Wes characters are balanced, which they aren't, but they should... which is what this thread is about. There is absolutely no reason you couldn't enjoy a difficult game that happens to have one very weak character. See "The Deprived" in the Dark Souls series, for example.

[DarkXero]

25 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

There is absolutely no reason you couldn't enjoy a masochistically difficult survival game just because it offered multiple balanced characters. It would all be playstyle variations on the same brutal, doomed experience.  Why are you disagreeing simply for disagreement's sake?  There's clearly room for more than just one flavor of masochistically difficult experience in DST.

If you removed the Deprived, or introduced new bosses as Soul Level checks in DS, many people would throw a fit too.

Not because it's new, but because of what they had and then lost.

People gimping themselves is nothing new.

1 hour ago, Axehilt said:

Removing the sanity drain would be excessive.  Calm and measured balanced changes are better than giant knee-jerk reactions. A small reduction to his sanity drain in Werebeaver form would be fine.  The sanity drain is there as the reason to not just stay in that form clearing an entire forest.

Maybe.

I can clear a forest all by myself without being in the werebeaver form.

Instead of going chop -> beaver -> chop -> eat -> pinecone -> chop -> repeat, I would rather chop.

Or remove the drain, and then drain all your sanity at once.

So I only plant pinecones at the end, instead of every 2 minutes.

[JohaneBrote]

Let me help you guys out there, you seem to be lost.

 

[Mario384]

9 hours ago, nome said:

I'm not a designer, no point getting me in a thread about changes you want unless it's about latency to core services.  

Damn.  Hey though, if you're in the office, maybe toss something at the guys working at DST and tell them to read?  Maybe a... potato cup?  If you want me to stop with the potato cup I will.

[Axehilt]

10 hours ago, rezecib said:

It does offer multiple balanced characters, kind of. If you assume the non-Wes characters are balanced, which they aren't, but they should... which is what this thread is about. There is absolutely no reason you couldn't enjoy a difficult game that happens to have one very weak character. See "The Deprived" in the Dark Souls series, for example.

It was the other guy saying he wouldn't enjoy a balanced Wes, implying that if Klei implemented a second underpowered character that somehow that would prevent him from enjoying Wes.  So it's exactly as ridiculous as you thought it was when you thought I "couldn't enjoy a difficult game that happens to have one very weak character."

I can enjoy the game this way, it's just more interesting with more viable playstyles.

The reason why is server settings determine overall difficulty.  So with my suggestion (all characters balanced) you choose masochistic server settings and EVERY character offers you a different flavor of that masochistic experienced.  But with keeping Wes weak, you're always stuck with that same one playstyle when you want something masochistic.  So whether you're a newbie or a total expert choosing the hardest possible settings, you simply get more viable options to choose from when characters are balanced.  Literally everyone benefits this way, whereas there's no real benefit to having an underpowered character.

[GuyNamedChris]

35 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

It was the other guy saying he wouldn't enjoy a balanced Wes, implying that if Klei implemented a second underpowered character that somehow that would prevent him from enjoying Wes.  So it's exactly as ridiculous as you thought it was when you thought I "couldn't enjoy a difficult game that happens to have one very weak character."

I can enjoy the game this way, it's just more interesting with more viable playstyles.

The reason why is server settings determine overall difficulty.  So with my suggestion (all characters balanced) you choose masochistic server settings and EVERY character offers you a different flavor of that masochistic experienced.  But with keeping Wes weak, you're always stuck with that same one playstyle when you want something masochistic.  So whether you're a newbie or a total expert choosing the hardest possible settings, you simply get more viable options to choose from when characters are balanced.  Literally everyone benefits this way, whereas there's no real benefit to having an underpowered character.

Can you guys take this to another thread if you're gonna keep discussing Wes? This thread was made for discussing buffing the beaver...

[thesamon]

Beaver woodie should atleast be able to craft a custom Hockey club!

[Soto8969]

1 hour ago, Axehilt said:

It was the other guy saying he wouldn't enjoy a balanced Wes, implying that if Klei implemented a second underpowered character that somehow that would prevent him from enjoying Wes.  So it's exactly as ridiculous as you thought it was when you thought I "couldn't enjoy a difficult game that happens to have one very weak character."

I can enjoy the game this way, it's just more interesting with more viable playstyles.

The reason why is server settings determine overall difficulty.  So with my suggestion (all characters balanced) you choose masochistic server settings and EVERY character offers you a different flavor of that masochistic experienced.  But with keeping Wes weak, you're always stuck with that same one playstyle when you want something masochistic.  So whether you're a newbie or a total expert choosing the hardest possible settings, you simply get more viable options to choose from when characters are balanced.  Literally everyone benefits this way, whereas there's no real benefit to having an underpowered character.

Why is the argue of destroying Wes only purpuse discussion here?

[DVGMedia]

just think of the lost and the keeper in the recent binding of issac update. the lost used to be the hard mode of that game and now with that updated the lost is fair game while the keeper became the new hard mode so why buff the hard mode character (wes) if that is what they are ment to be. also wes is op cause he is of the few characters that can go insane at will

 

and ive already posted my thoughts on the beaver just higher dmg and armor protection would be good for me

[or1239]

Guys seriously stop discussing Wes here thanks.

[GuyNamedChris]

1 hour ago, EsaiXD said:

just think of the lost and the keeper in the recent binding of issac update. the lost used to be the hard mode of that game and now with that updated the lost is fair game while the keeper became the new hard mode so why buff the hard mode character (wes) if that is what they are ment to be. also wes is op cause he is of the few characters that can go insane at will

 

and ive already posted my thoughts on the beaver just higher dmg and armor protection would be good for me

STOP TALKING ABOUT WES

[Mario384]

Guys, please.

 

This topic was to discuss buffing the Werebeaver, because it's not fun as is.  I know the topic has basically already been argued and whatnot, but I ask please don't get this thread closed yet.  It can get closed when it's purpose is served, which is for it to be seen by the Klei devs.  Thanks.

[hyiltiz]

Can we come up with possible creative ways on how the beaver can be buffed?

[Mario384]

2 hours ago, hyiltiz said:

Can we come up with possible creative ways on how the beaver can be buffed?

I mean, we already listed off tons of ideas for it to work.  We just need someone actually working on DST to come and talk to us now.  (AKA apparently not a nome)

[hyiltiz]

25 minutes ago, Mario384 said:

I mean, we already listed off tons of ideas for it to work.  We just need someone actually working on DST to come and talk to us now.  (AKA apparently not a nome)

I don't think they are tons. They are not even tens.

[Mario384]

2 minutes ago, hyiltiz said:

I don't think they are tons. They are not even tens.

Well, it's something, mind you, the ones in the first post arent the only ones.  Also, we don't know what's possible until a dev says what they'd be open to doing.

[Axehilt]

9 hours ago, Chris1488 said:

Can you guys take this to another thread if you're gonna keep discussing Wes? This thread was made for discussing buffing the beaver...

The logical solution for Woodie has already been suggested (slightly reduce the sanity penalty in Beaver form.)  So the main topic of the thread is basically over. There's no need to get strung out of shape when conversation naturally moves onto other topics.

8 hours ago, Soto8969 said:

Why is the argue of destroying Wes only purpuse discussion here?

What?

5 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

just think of the lost and the keeper in the recent binding of issac update. the lost used to be the hard mode of that game and now with that updated the lost is fair game while the keeper became the new hard mode so why buff the hard mode character (wes) if that is what they are ment to be. also wes is op cause he is of the few characters that can go insane at will

and ive already posted my thoughts on the beaver just higher dmg and armor protection would be good for me

I've explained why.  Variety.

• For regular players, a balanced Wes takes the viable character count from 10 to 11 (10% more viable playstyles!)
• For masochistic players, a balanced Wes takes the viable character count from 1 to 11 (1100% more viable playstyles!)

It's way more interesting to have 11 different playstyles with which to enjoy a very difficult game, than when there is only 1 way.

It's not opposites day, so calling an objectively underpowered character "op" makes no sense.

Werebeaver couldn't be for combat in the current system.  Combat challenges scale throughout the game, and it just wouldn't make sense for him to shotcut past early challenges but still be useless lategame. Personally I think Beaver is probably fine if it's just amazing at gathering resources (ie just slightly reduce the sanity drain of beaver), but if you went the combat route then you'd want it to scale over the course of the game.  Something like this:

• Werebeaver starts with weak innate armor (grass suit) and weak damage (axe)
• Eating logs very gradually upgrades these traits, taking quite a while to max out.

[GuyNamedChris]

8 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

There's no need to get strung out of shape when conversation naturally moves onto other topics.

It's off-topic. This thread is to discuss Woodie. If you'd like to discuss Wes, move it to another topic. Please.

[ImDaMisterL]

I understand when a thread slips from a topic to another and people start to discuss this new topic, but there are already enough threads made to discuss about Wes, and they were all linked by @JohaneBrote in this same page.

It would be nice to start making the comments about Wes in those threads, and leaving this one solely for the Werebeaver discussion.

[DVGMedia]

one thing i dont get is why people are arguing the sanity aspect of the beaver tbh its fine the way it is you can get that log meter filled up from work alone even before you lose a quarter of your max sanity so why increse the duration of the beaver in the sanity aspect if you are still going to be doing the same amount of work?  and besides sanity isnt even a bad downside to it as mentioned earlier. i would just say up his survivability so people dont forget the beaver is an option. The beaver is just more than a resource gathering machine

just saying this if survivability was buffed dmg and armor you wouldnt need to lower the sanity drain rate or any of that cause you could just deal with the dam shadows and besides free nightmarefuel right. Also who says you have to get your sanity back up when chopping a large forest just keep at it you cant lose what isn't there to lose

so stop with the sanity buff talk

[GuyNamedChris]

6 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

one thing i dont get is why people are arguing the sanity aspect of the beaver tbh its fine the way it is you can get that log meter filled up from work alone even before you lose a quarter of your max sanity so why increse the duration of the beaver in the sanity aspect if you are still going to be doing the same amount of work?  and besides sanity isnt even a bad downside to it as mentioned earlier. i would just say up his survivability so people dont forget the beaver is an option. The beaver is just more than a resource gathering machine

just saying this if survivability was buffed dmg and armor you wouldnt need to lower the sanity drain rate or any of that cause you could just deal with the dam shadows and besides free nightmarefuel right. Also who says you have to get your sanity back up when chopping a large forest just keep at it you cant lose what isn't there to lose

so stop with the sanity buff talk

Yeah but what happens when you're trying to chop trees and the like but you suddenly get swarmed by 2 terrorbeaks? The sanity drain gets in the way of the resource gathering side of the beaver...

[Axehilt]

7 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

one thing i dont get is why people are arguing the sanity aspect of the beaver tbh its fine the way it is you can get that log meter filled up from work alone even before you lose a quarter of your max sanity so why increse the duration of the beaver in the sanity aspect if you are still going to be doing the same amount of work?  and besides sanity isnt even a bad downside to it as mentioned earlier. i would just say up his survivability so people dont forget the beaver is an option. The beaver is just more than a resource gathering machine

just saying this if survivability was buffed dmg and armor you wouldnt need to lower the sanity drain rate or any of that cause you could just deal with the dam shadows and besides free nightmarefuel right. Also who says you have to get your sanity back up when chopping a large forest just keep at it you cant lose what isn't there to lose

so stop with the sanity buff talk

If you're not in an immediate position to deal with sanity, the sanity drain means "get out of Beaver ASAP".  While that's not the end of the world (it's a curse and supposed to be his downside, not necessarily turn him into Superman) the sanity-enforced time limit is a bit too brutal.

But since Werebeaver is the most interesting thing about Woodie it'd be interesting to get him alternating more between the two states. This would require some new disadvantage to his character, but might work something like this:

• Woodie (human form) cannot eat logs, but the hunger for them still curses him.
  • Woodie's hunger drain starts off normal, but after two days without eating a log it begins gradually increasing.  The multiplier can surpass 1.5 if you stay out of Beaver very long (Wolfgang is 1.25 hunger multiplier, for reference)
  • Woodie and Lucy both comment on the hunger as the multiplier passes certain milestones.
• Werebeaver can eat logs
  • This immediately resets the hunger multiplier (which Woodie comments on,) and fills his stomach to a max of 10 (enough to get you out of starvation and sustain you during beaver form, but not enough for logs to be a real source of food)
  • Werebeaver's sanity drain is slightly lighter than it is now.

[Mario384]

Only thing is if you just make the Beaver Insanity take less time, you still don't fix the issue.  Beaver once again is still rushed, and even if you slow it down what happens if you're not at full sanity?  Once again, I say the beaver shouldn't affected, mainly because it's logical.  If the beaver is a creature with the same level intelligence to say, a pig or Mactusk, why would the Nightmares target him?  It'd make more sense if they were looking for an insane human being to kill and getting confused when they don't find one.  Here's a possible way to fix this:

 

- Beaver still spawns Nightmare Creatures when insane, but they don't stalk him or attack him initially, but after a short period of time has passed they'll realize who's the insane person and go to their target.  Beaver can still attack them prior, and when he does, they'll aggro.  This allows the Werebeaver to actually run away from them to avoid the fight, or he can choose to farm Nightmare Fuel.

- Beaver gets some small healing when eating wooden food items.  Not big number, most likely the best of them would be a Living Log at a high number.

- The beaver will not lose Woodie's hat on transformation, rather the Beaver will wear it.  If the Beaver is wearing a item that gives sanity, it'll cancel out the Beaver Sanity Drain, no matter what.  This also means if Woodie was wearing a Football Helmet or a Crown he'll keep it on, allowing the beaver to be potenially better at combat providing Woodie procures the items for it.  This essentially allows players to choose how they want to play Beaver based on their selection in hats.  If they don't want sanity drain, wear a Top Hat or Garland.  If they want to fight with the Beaver, they can use combat hats.  They want the Beaver to avoid the temperature issues?  Give the beaver a hat for it.

 

EDIT:  Actually, now that I think about it, if you implement the whole third idea, you don't really need the first.

[FractalBrot]

If you let the werebeaver wear hats, I'd want the grass suit damage reduction removed, otherwise that's just getting annoying again. I actually think that'd be somewhat interesting.