[Bug] Possible to attack guard from square with destroyed drone but not to drop it

[LeChuck]

Hi,

 

I came across this inconsistent behavior:

 

- I am standing on a square with a destroyed drone

- From this square, I can OK a guard so that guard is lying on the same square as the drone.

- However, after picking up the guard to drag him/her, I can't drop the guard on that square anymore.

 

Seems weird and inconsistent to me. Also pretty surprising and it took me a while to figure our why I can't drop the guard even though I didn't move at all.

[bobthe]

 

...OK a guard...

 

"Ok guard, go lay down over there and take a nap. Thanks!" (Sorry, couldn't help myself!)

 

You'll notice the same behavior if you manage to get multiple guards downed on the same tile. It doesn't matter if they are drones or guards or if they are KOed or killed/destroyed. Any number can stack up on a tile but you cannot drop a dragged guard on top of a downed drone or guard (dead or alive) even if you picked him up from that same tile. I believe this is meant to make it harder to hide bodies without making guards/drones immune to KO/death just because they happen to stand on a fallen comrade.

[warfreak2]

You shouldn't be able to melee guards while pinning another guard, though.

There is a "bug report" subforum that this should be posted in, though.

[bobthe]

You shouldn't be able to melee guards while pinning another guard, though.

There is a "bug report" subforum that this should be posted in, though.

 

True, but guards have a tendency to run onto the same tile as a KOed guard when they see one and downing them with a ranged weapon can result in multiple guards/drones KOed on the same tile. Shock Traps and other gadgets can also result in a guard/drone dropping on the same tile as an already KOed guard/drone.

[warfreak2]

That is not what is being described here. The OP explicitly said he was able to KO a guard while standing on a drone, resulting in both the drone and the guard being pinned on that square. That is a bug.

[bobthe]

That is not what is being described here. The OP explicitly said he was able to KO a guard while standing on a drone, resulting in both the drone and the guard being pinned on that square. That is a bug.

 

I think you misread. The drone he was standing on was not disabled, it was destroyed. You can perform a melee attack while standing on a dead guard or destroyed drone, that is not a bug.

[LeChuck]

I think you misread. The drone he was standing on was not disabled, it was destroyed. You can perform a melee attack while standing on a dead guard or destroyed drone, that is not a bug.

 

Yes, that is true. The drone was destroyed. I was still surprised that I was able to perform a melee attack but not able to drop the guard even though I had not moved an inch. If the rule is "you can attack from a square with a dead guard or destroyed drone" why not "you can drop guards on dead guards or destroyed drones". I am not advocating for a specific rule here just saying that I was surprised and think that's not entirely consistent.

[bobthe]

Yes, that is true. The drone was destroyed. I was still surprised that I was able to perform a melee attack but not able to drop the guard even though I had not moved an inch. If the rule is "you can attack from a square with a dead guard or destroyed drone" why not "you can drop guards on dead guards or destroyed drones". I am not advocating for a specific rule here just saying that I was surprised and think that's not entirely consistent.

 

I agree that it's a bit confusing at first, but I think it makes sense if you think it over. Otherwise either you would not be able to perform a melee attack while on a dead guard/drone, which would also not make much sense, or they would have to let you stack bodies by dropping them on top of each other. The game designers made a decision not to let you stack bodies by dropping them in piles in order to make it a bit harder to hide bodies, since combat is supposed to be a last resort.

 

So in the end they chose to let you make melee attacks under such circumstances but don't let you drop them to stack them. I think it's a good compromise and once you're aware you can plan around it.

[LeChuck]

I agree that it's a bit confusing at first, but I think it makes sense if you think it over. Otherwise either you would not be able to perform a melee attack while on a dead guard/drone, which would also not make much sense, or they would have to let you stack bodies by dropping them on top of each other. The game designers made a decision not to let you stack bodies by dropping them in piles in order to make it a bit harder to hide bodies, since combat is supposed to be a last resort.

 

So in the end they chose to let you make melee attacks under such circumstances but don't let you drop them to stack them. I think it's a good compromise and once you're aware you can plan around it.

 

Yes, makes sense! I knew about the mechanism for knocked out guards/drones. Just didn't know about the distinction between knocked out (no attack and no dropping) and dead/destroyed (attack but no dropping). 

[Barleytree]

You'll notice the same behavior if you manage to get multiple guards downed on the same tile. It doesn't matter if they are drones or guards or if they are KOed or killed/destroyed. Any number can stack up on a tile but you cannot drop a dragged guard on top of a downed drone or guard (dead or alive) even if you picked him up from that same tile. I believe this is meant to make it harder to hide bodies without making guards/drones immune to KO/death just because they happen to stand on a fallen comrade.

 

It's somewhat frustrating that it's possible to infinitely stack guard bodies only if the guards themselves decide to cooperate.

 

This wouldn't really be an issue, except in the instance when two or more KO'd guards fall upon one another. In this situation (which isn't too rare if you're a fan of dart weaponry) it's possible for a single agent to pin 3 guards at a time (I haven't tested with more).

 

The question then becomes one of mechanical consistency. If an agent can subdue 3 guards at once, in this very particular circumstance, why is it not always possible? For that matter, why can an agent pin two guards at once (carrying one, standing on another) in normal situations? Do they just stick their foot in the guy's face? While we're at it, why can an agent stop a guard from waking up in the first place?

 

I feel like all of these things could be made more explicit by the game's interface and animations (you could even make up some bullshit lore about guards having gene-coded stacking augs that are disabled when their body is tampered with).

[bobthe]

It's somewhat frustrating that it's possible to infinitely stack guard bodies only if the guards themselves decide to cooperate.

 

This wouldn't really be an issue, except in the instance when two or more KO'd guards fall upon one another. In this situation (which isn't too rare if you're a fan of dart weaponry) it's possible for a single agent to pin 3 guards at a time (I haven't tested with more).

 

The question then becomes one of mechanical consistency. If an agent can subdue 3 guards at once, in this very particular circumstance, why is it not always possible? For that matter, why can an agent pin two guards at once (carrying one, standing on another) in normal situations? Do they just stick their foot in the guy's face? While we're at it, why can an agent stop a guard from waking up in the first place?

 

I feel like all of these things could be made more explicit by the game's interface and animations (you could even make up some bullshit lore about guards having gene-coded stacking augs that are disabled when their body is tampered with).

 

If you view the ability to KO a guard with a ranged weapon when he's on top of another KOed guard as an exploit, maybe that will help alleviate your frustration. Otherwise they'd have had to arbitrarily not allow you to KO a guard with a ranged weapon when they are on top of another guard, which itself would not be consistent with the ability to KO a guard with a melee weapon when the guard is on top of another KOed one (since you pull them into your square in that case and thus off the other body).

 

So I think they thought through the scenarios pretty well and made some intelligent compromises.

 

[warfreak2]

One way around this inconsistency would be to allow one of the guards to wake up while being pinned, and KO your agent - because you weren't able to keep more than one down at once, and you weren't able to resist the attack because your hands were full. That's not a bad idea for a mod, actually.

[BenjaminLewis]

Hmm... has some promise, but I still see some inconsistency.  If a guard in a stack can awaken when an agent is standing in the square, what about the case where another guard is standing on the square?  It would be weird if one of the stacked KO'd guards awoke and caused THAT guard to become KO'd.

 

What if instead the constraint against multiple (conscious) people occupying the same square was relaxed slightly?  Something like:

 

- guard/agent cannot move to square with another guard/agent (as current behaviour)

- agent can only pin one guard at a time (topmost guard of stack)

- non-pinned guards (or agents?) may awaken and occupy same square as another guard/agent.

- if agent stands on stack of guards and one awakens, agent doesn't automatically get KO'd right away, but guard can KO them next turn.