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BenjaminLewis

Will agents in these locations get spotted?

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Recently I was surprised when one of my agents was NOT spotted by a guard.  Unfortunately I can't remember the exact conditions, but I believe it was something like one of the positions shown in these diagrams:

 

xrhBDy2.png?1

 

(The solid squares represent standard cover objects).

 

Will an agent hiding in any of the places 1-5 get spotted by a standard guard (45 degree cone)?  If not, why not?

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Cyberboy2000    660

4 & 5 will definitely get shot. However the others I think should be fine. This is because of a phenomenon another topic discussed a while ago. This is the fact that when a guard moves, his vision cone does not get updated until he actually moves. This is why you can hide next to a guard that's making a 180 degree turn.

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Aha, thanks, that's very helpful to know.  I was aware you could hide beside a guard doing a 180, but I thought that was for a different reason (I thought it was just because the guard vision direction *instantly* changes rather than rotating).

 

(So, if I understand correctly, the rule of thumb is that the vision cone of a moving guard is computed once per square, and based on the direction the guard was going when *entering* that square)

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Nxf7    74

You can hide next to a guard making a 180 turn because they don't do a rotation, they just instantly face where they want to go and in both directions the guards vision cones never see you. Which is a different situation than Figure A.

 

My gut feeling tells me I've been spotted in a situation like that before so I've been avoiding those hiding spots ever since.

 

Figure B both agents are spotted for sure, guard both lands on and takes off from a new tile:  new vision check no matter what order the code is in.

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Ooh, but I think this means you should be able to stand diagonally behind a guard who is about to do a 180 without getting spotted (because guard will be looking in opposite direction for check on his first square).

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I could be mistaken, but I don't think example B is possible. They can't cut the corner like that.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Yes, they can cut corners for standard cover objects (anywhere your agents can).

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Really? Then why wouldn't guards in example A cut the corner by default? Don't guards take the shortest route to their destination?

 

Yes, but there are cases where A *is* the shortest route.  Also, there is often more than one shortest route.

 

Anyway, for guards doing a 180 degree turn, if I understand correctly the vision cones will look like this, and both agents 1 *and* 2 will be safe.

 

3T8MXKU.png

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Joopac    13

I think the Example A has some errors.

 

Since guards will by default move in the most efficient way, they will move like the Example B, making a 45-degree turn by the obstacle. However, if an agent is hiding on spot no. 1 of the Example A, the guard will try to move like the Example B, but cannot do it because an agent is there. (For a short period of time during the early access, when this situation happens, the guards would stop moving and become alerted, and on the next turn move into the spot to hunt the hiding agent.) The guard will act as if there is a new obstacle block, so move straight and then make a diagonal turn to detour the agent.

(I tried to make some changes on the original, and I am really bad at this...)

 

...and since the diagonal tiles right next to a guard is Watched, so the guard is bound to notice the agent on the tile no. 1. 

 

 

post-444900-0-84179400-1439833095_thumb.

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Jason    5234

I think A is not quite right as well.. assuming the guard was not intending to move to the space occupied by 1, then the 3rd arrow should be facing North. That might help explain how one might not be seen in that case. 

Though, if the guard was trying to get to the space occupied by one, he should have turned to face the tile and seen all the agents there.

I would expect the guard to see your agents in B on his third move. And like I mentioned above, the 2nd arrow would be pointing North here.

 

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It still drives me mad that a tactical game like this doesn't have a proper manual that exactly explains this. I've mentioned this before, but Klei is really dropping the ball on this otherwise great game.

 

Jason, please, please, pretty please with sugar on top : create a guide on a wiki or something and explain EXACTLY how this works. There are many topics relating to this problem and only you know the exact way things work.

You (or colleagues) have mentioned that this is a deterministic game (i.e., no luck involved). Please share the proper knowledge for your fans.

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Sorry, I wasn't intending the arrows to look exactly like those shown in the game.  The game draws multiple arrows per square (and when turning, there will be arrows in the square in both directions), I was just lazy.

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I think the Example A has some errors.

 

Since guards will by default move in the most efficient way, they will move like the Example B, making a 45-degree turn by the obstacle.

 

I only diagrammed enough to illustrate my point.  the guard may have turned diagonally right to avoid an obstacle directly in front of him ... and I can think of other explanations.  I don't show his final destination in the diagram either.

 

For the record, to my recollection the guard was headed toward a doorway somewhere up and to the right of the diagram, and other obstacles were involved.

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Joopac    13

 

 

Anyway, for guards doing a 180 degree turn, if I understand correctly the vision cones will look like this, and both agents 1 *and* 2 will be safe.

 

3T8MXKU.png

 

This is true, and frankly I am quite amused to stand on these tiles, completely out in the open but still the guard would not notice me.

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Joopac    13

Now that I think of it, I've also seen guards NOT taking the shortest path, but taking extra little bends.

 

I cannot be certain about the exact cases you have seen, but I suspect it might be caused by intertwining of patrol routes of multiple guards. Although the 'pathing' of guards have become quite intelligent compared to the earlier versions of this game, I often see a guard trying to make detours even after another guard is no longer in his way. For example, a camera drone and a guard may dance with each other just to avoid getting into each other's path. 

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Jason    5234

The rules are supposed to be pretty simple.  Guards have 90 degree vision forward, which is applied after each move they take.

The issue here seems more about predicting how a guard will path to a destination. To help with that, you have the observe ability. But you can assume the guards will take the most efficient way to their destination, so Example A may be unlikely. The guard has to eventually drift two tiles right to get to its destination. He will probably do it right after passing the cover because of how close the destination is. If his destination was much further forward, when he makes his drifts to the right would be less predictable. You'd need to observe him to be sure.

If the guard tries to move to a tile that is occupied by an agent he can't see (because of cover), he gets interested in that spot and will move forward one tile next to the tile he couldn't enter and turns to face it to see why he couldn't move there, revealing the agent. That sounds a bit technical maybe, but it shouldn't be a surprise. If the guard is going to walk through your agent, you should expect the agent to get spotted. 

Guards that make a little jog like that sounds very weird and I would consider it a bug. Sending us a savegame file when that happens would be awesome.

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The issue here seems more about predicting how a guard will path to a destination.

 

...

Guards that make a little jog like that sounds very weird and I would consider it a bug. Sending us a savegame file when that happens would be awesome.

 

I wasn't trying to make it about prediction in my OP, but I appreciate the info.  In the case in question I had already observed the guard's path, so I knew he was going to move that way, I was just surprised that he didn't see me.

 

... sure, if I see a case like that again I'll save the file.  I actually assumed at the time it was a deliberate attempt to make the guards smarter! (memory is hazy, but I think it was an elite enforcer with an '!', I thought they might have some additional AI logic responsible for that)

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Jason    5234

If you had situation A, and observe was telling you the guard was going to path to those squares, then I would expect to not be seen. As I mentioned, the 3rd arrow would still be facing North, so your agent would be in the guards blind spot to the right. Then the guard would move diagonally forward and at the end of the move, you would not be in his vision either.

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When drawing a single arrow per square (unlike the game does), you could either draw the arrow in the direction the guard faces when entering the square, or when leaving the square.  I arbitrarily chose the latter on my original diagram, but now that I know the rules for when the vision cone is computed, I agree it makes more sense to choose the former, so the arrow matches the direction of the vision cone.

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Nxf7    74

Did a quick test (99 rewinds helping a lot) for Figure A. Tile 1 gets caught while 2 and 3 are safe. I used a guard that patrolled out of a door which guarantees the guard won't "cut the corner".

 

I think I see the pattern here. when a guard turns there's only minor "check" and will only spot agents directly adjacent to the guard, everyone further away is safe. In fact it's the same rules as Archive Prism getting spotted through her disguise.

 

I also tested Figure C (the pic of the guard going 180) with an agent in tile 2 and she wasn't caught. This is still consistent with my findings.

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warfreak2    30

In my experience, I can't 100% rely on guards not seeing things which according to the algorithm they shouldn't. Sometimes a guard will see me next to him while he's making a 180º turn, when another agent in the same spot next to the same guard making the same turn wasn't seen before. I play on the assumption that all of the spots 1-5 are unsafe, though according to the algorithm, 1-3 should be safe.

 

I struggle to imagine a situation in which picture A gives the route of a guard though. As far as I can tell, if a diagonal move and an orthogonal move are both possible for a shortest path, guards always prefer to do diagonal moves. This occasionally leads to patrols where the guard takes a different route in each direction.

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Nxf7    74

Recorded it: https://youtu.be/cwrZOhqMaZA

 

Did a quick test (99 rewinds helping a lot) for Figure A. Tile 1 gets caught while 2 and 3 are safe. I used a guard that patrolled out of a door which guarantees the guard won't "cut the corner".

 

I think I see the pattern here. when a guard turns there's only minor "check" and will only spot agents directly adjacent to the guard, everyone further away is safe. In fact it's the same rules as Archive Prism getting spotted through her disguise.

 

I also tested Figure C (the pic of the guard going 180) with an agent in tile 2 and she wasn't caught. This is still consistent with my findings.

And as usual the Devs aren't that helpful with shedding light on their own game :p

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