Will agents in these locations get spotted?


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The guard has to move over one tile to go around the cover to investigate the point. He might do it at the first tile in front of him ( in which case he would be blocked by your agent and he would then move to see what blocked him) , or the second ( he would walk past them both) (which he would also see the agents it seems).

 

 

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The guard has to move over one tile to go around the cover to investigate the point. He might do it at the first tile in front of him ( in which case he would be blocked by your agent and he would then move to see what blocked him) , or the second ( he would walk past them both). To know for sure, you would need to observe him. 

 

According to this earlier post, agent 1 would get spotted even in the second case; unless there's some specific visibility difference between doorframe and cover object that applies here.

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Here are some real game examples, suggesting the rules we've come up with here are correct with Nfx7's "one square adjacent" addendum.

 

1. Decker, not spotted next turn, guard is turning to avoid non-cover obstacles.

 

TH5DKpC.png

 

2. Internationale, does not get caught next turn.

 

qx0WYHt.png

 

3. Internationale, gets spotted next turn (1-square adjacent rule)

 

W9ATv7X.png

 

(I can provide the save file if anyone cares)

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Recorded it: https://youtu.be/cwrZOhqMaZA

 

And as usual the Devs aren't that helpful with shedding light on their own game :razz:

 

I do stand corrected. The video results confused me. So I dug in with one of the programmers to understand why that result happened. 
 
The reality is the system is more complex than I remembered.
 
First, they DO check sight before they move. They turn to face the direction they will go, not just after a move. BUT, peripheral vision does not apply to guards when they are moving. 
 
Second, they still have vision to tiles directly in front of them, regardless of peripheral or not. 
 
So in the first example of the video, the guard turned 45 degrees, but the agent was only in his peripheral vision, which is ignored when they move. 
 
In the second example, the guard turned 45 degrees, and now the agent was right next to him and was seen. 
 
So in BenjaminsLewis's example given above. The agents will get seen regardless of when the guard turns to go around the cover.
 
Remembering back, the peripheral was dropped when they move as it was found to be  too unforgiving. But the effect was left in so they felt more threatening. We wanted players to feel in danger, but actually have a bit more tolerance.
 
The point blank rule was put in so that the guards would react more naturally when standing right next to an agent.
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First, they DO check sight before they move. They turn to face the direction they will go, not just after a move. BUT, peripheral vision does not apply to guards when they are moving

That might be true but their peripheral does matter if they take a new step and an agent is in their peripheral vision because it causes them to stop moving and turn to use their central vision to see what they found. I think a more consistent rule is that peripheral vision isn't checked while turning.

 

edit: unless if you mean moving in-between tiles which I think that obviously does nothing. Every time I mention "moving" or "step" I mean a guard going from one tile to the next.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. Of course my earlier jab wasn't directed at you or Klei as much as the gaming industry as a whole, the players weren't working on the earlier iterations in order to get confused.

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So in BenjaminsLewis's example given above. The agents will get seen regardless of when the guard turns to go around the cover.

 

I believe only agent 1 will be seen [if guard does not cut the corner]; agent 2 is in peripheral vision only and not adjacent to guard.

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hmm strange. I experimented with this a bit when I was still playing with rewinds. and from my memory both situations in the OP as well as the 3 screenshots would get me discovered. I remember it as the guards turning towards the square there going to move to before making the actual move. was there some change in the latest patch(es) regarding how LOS for guards is handeled?

 

regardless this will make it a good deal easier for me to avoid guards.

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What would solve all of this confusion is if, after having the path predicted (observed), that you can see which tiles will be seen by the guard. Just like you now have the yellow and red floor markers, but then for the guard you are hovering your mouse over.

 

All problems and confusion would be gone.

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So here's a nice trick; neither Decker nor Internationale get caught in this situation:

 

yH0oAYB.png

 

However, Internationale DOES get caught in this next case, despite being only in guard's peripheral vision when he turns around.  What am I not understanding? (It seems reasonable that she SHOULD get caught, but from what I understood of the rules posted by Jason, I didn't think she would.  She gets noticed by the upper guard, who alerts the lower guard):

 

2Uyndar.png

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It still drives me mad that a tactical game like this doesn't have a proper manual that exactly explains this. I've mentioned this before, but Klei is really dropping the ball on this otherwise great game.

 

Jason, please, please, pretty please with sugar on top : create a guide on a wiki or something and explain EXACTLY how this works. There are many topics relating to this problem and only you know the exact way things work.

You (or colleagues) have mentioned that this is a deterministic game (i.e., no luck involved). Please share the proper knowledge for your fans.

I don't know if "really dropping the ball" is fair.  I understand that this would be helpful to some people, but personally, I never read manuals and I've enjoyed the game just fine without one, and I imagine most people feel the same.  Cases like this need a fan-made wiki that's based on the players' experimentation.

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However, Internationale DOES get caught in this next case, despite being only in guard's peripheral vision when he turns around.  What am I not understanding? (It seems reasonable that she SHOULD get caught, but from what I understood of the rules posted by Jason, I didn't think she would.  She gets noticed by the upper guard, who alerts the lower guard):

 

After the guard takes a step forward she's still in peripheral vision. Peripheral vision still matters after the guard has already turned and started moving, I don't know why Jason worded it like he did. Internationale would have been fine if placed 1 tile northwest.

 

 

Keep in mind that most devs don't talk to us nearly as much as Klei does.

It was a joke that in most games the players know more than the devs. I appreciate their involvement in this discussion either way.

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Does this sound like reasonable summary of vision checking during guard's turn?  (by "reasonable" I mean it produces the same results, not necessarily exactly the same implementation)

 

For each square in guard path:
 
1. do vision check (including peripheral area) in "initial" guard direction
2. (optional) guard rotates to "final" direction for that square
3. do vision check in new guard direction (not including peripheral area, but including "adjacent facing"* squares)
4. (optional) if final square in path, guard may look around.
 
* for an "orthogonal" guard, there is one "adjacent facing" square; for a "diagonal" guard there are two.
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I don't understand why it's getting complicated - it's really simple.

1. If a guard is moving, that guard will detect an enemy within his 'warning' area - excluding peripheral vision.

2. If a guard is not moving, that guard will notice everything in his vision - including peripheral vision.

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BenjaminLewis's process is correct. Everyone seems to be forgetting the basics just because of something Jason said. Whether it was a typo or it was technically correct but there's another block of code somewhere that handles peripheral vision checking, I don't know but what I do know is peripheral vision still matters for EVERYTHING except the instance when the guard turns to face a new direction.

 

I know you guys want a simple, easy to understand system, or maybe you want guards to be even dumber than you originally thought but unfortunately you aren't getting let off that easy. I did another quick and dirty vid showing everything I've learned so far.

 

Peripheral vision still matters while moving: https://youtu.be/BgFlZrmtec0

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