Merging DS with DST?

[DarkXero]

DST and DS have different engines.

You can't take DS script files and use them with the DST exe or viceversa.

 

Your best bet is to wait, XirmiX, wait and see what happens when DST releases.

[Crynux]

@Crynux so it's not that it's impossible, but just not something that devs want to put their efforts into? I see. I wonder if, though, it would be possible to do via modding. Also, I was thinking that you could still have DS and DST on their own if you only have one of the two, but you would have them in one if you had them both.

 

DS and DST are different games; although given enough time it could be possible to connect the two in some way, in practical terms it's impossible. It's like saying you want to merge Firefox and Chrome into one.

 

If you have the source, it makes it (slightly) easier; however we don't.

[Pyromailmann]

@XirmiX, and @Crynux, I had a thought about this and the most infamous shooter in history of video games (you know it). On Steam, (as of my research) the Call of Duty games have 3 different parts now-a-days: The Campaign, The Multiplayer, and The Wave-Based Survival (Zombies).

I'd like to think of DS and DST like that, where both games are available (despite you having to buy DST currently  for $5.00) the only difference is how you can't switch between the two without closing DS, starting up DST and vice versa.

*prepares for the flame war from bringing up Call of Duty*

[Johnny5isAlive]

*prepares for the flame war from bringing up Call of Duty*

 

What the fluff did you just fluffing say to me, you little glommer? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Western Pengulls, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Krampus, and I have over 300 confirmed hours. I am trained in Charlie warfare and I’m the top hunter in the entire US server. You are nothing to me but just another noob. I will kick you the fluff out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Island, mark my words. You think you can get away with mentioning a game I dislike over the Internet? Think again. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Pigs across the server and your bases light is being traced right now so you better prepare for the YOU GO SMASH, maggot. The YOU GO SMASH that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your base. You’re fluffy, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can ban you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my left mouse click. Not only am I extensively trained in mouse precision, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United Glommer Society and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable base off the face of the continent, you little fluff. If only you could have known what unsatanic retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your Beefalo. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn Merm. You’re fluffing Sleepytime'd, kiddo.

 

Did I get all the swears...? I think I got all the swears... I took too much time doing this.. Oh god why..

[GiddyGuy]

and I have over 300 confirmed hours.

lawl Scrub get on my level, 400 hours both dst and ds...I need a life. ;-; 

[Johnny5isAlive]

I need a life

I actually have 850 hours in DST already ;_; 

[GiddyGuy]

I actually have 850 hours in DST already ;_; 

Then where did the 300 hours come from?  

[Johnnyprofane]

I actually have 850 hours in DST already ;_;

Your life confuses me...

[blubuild]

No offense meant here, I can't help but point out that the amount of bull and thoughtless repetition in this thread is almost mind-boggling.

 

Converting a game that was built with the expectation of having one player into multiplayer can be tricky - complex work, requiring lots of effort. Definitely.

 

Converting a game that was built to handle multiple players into handling one is typically trivial, because guess what? Most of those games already perfectly handle a single player, with no changes needed. Don't Starve Together is no different...

 

It is extremely doable to combine Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together into one game (not to mention that they are already very similar technically, but even that is beside the point). You'd simply use the Don't Starve Together base for both. MANY games work like this (in them, single-player internally works like locally hosting a one-player server). There is no need for two "engines". The existing balance and behavior changes between the two modes of playing are trivial to implement within the same game, it's a matter of a simple if() statement checking a boolean global var (i.e. is_world_multiplayer), it is literally among the simplest and fastest computations in programming to make... Whoever said it's going to slow the game down - wow, man! Any sort of possible debugging feature will slow the game more, and it will still not be a meaningful effect.

 

In response to something else often-repeated: Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together are no more 'different games' than different game-modes in a game are (e.g. in DS, Sandbox Mode and Adventure Mode). Gee, as if it's unheard of that games have both singleplayer and multiplayer mode, that some things in gameplay differ between. Let's not kid ourselves here...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying creating DST is as easy as creating a gamemode; that could only be a potential case if DS was built from the ground up with multiplayer and networking in mind, which it likely wasn't.

 

Seriously, didn't you guys already notice that you can perfectly play Don't Starve Together as single-player as-is (in fact it could, in a way, potentially be a good idea for players looking a different and more hardcore mode)?. Did you think that making things like the health mobs spawn with or have, or the effect certain items have, change according to whether the Jury Rigged Portal exists in the world or not is tough, difficult and messy to do? It isn't any of those things.

When programming, you have freedom, when you have the source code of a program, you are free to add and change things wherever you want - there aren't arbitrary limitations like there may be in mod-making.

To elaborate, it is, again, an if() statement, a rudimentary, simple one at that, and nothing more. For non-programmers, it is simply like checking whether a flag is raised or not, or an option is active or not. It is about definitely no more complex than implementing the different settings during world generation. A player tries to activate a Touchstone? if(is_world_multiplayer), then the game ignores the attempt (like in DST), otherwise, he can activate it (like in DS). A player dies without an Amulet of Life Saving equipped? if(is_world_multiplayer) then he turns into a ghost, otherwise the DS behavior happens (auto-activate Touchstone/Meat Effigy or delete world/exit adventure mode). A boss mob is spawned? if(is_world_multiplayer) then it has x2 the health as normal, or just loads from a predetermined multiplayer value - otherwise, it has the normal DS health. Etc. It's all like this, it's nowhere near the difficulty presented in this thread, and it is more than just doable.

 

No, it would not be very hard to make it possible to start a singleplayer world and later enable multiplayer in it, even via an in-game action of building the Jury Rigged Portal, either (you could probably do something similar in a DST mod currently, too). I believe not only I, but many players have dreamed of this - letting friends join up on an existing world of yours.

Of course, it is not outside the realm of possibility for a talented programmer and reverse-engineer to build a program that converts saves between present-day DS and DST, either. It would definitely be possible for the developer, having access to the sources of everything.

 

As for why the merge isn't done, as of this moment Don't Starve Together is incomplete and considered beta/experimental, while Don't Starve is complete and considered stable. This could be thought of as a good reason. Maybe they will make the merge once DST is complete - it will certainly give them certain advantages (such as not needing to track two separate projects - duplicate new features between two projects, maintain the bugs of two codebases etc) and similar ones to the modding community, but it is obviously not in their best interests to do that, that isn't hard to figure out.

[jbeetle]

No offense meant here, I can't help but point out that the amount of bull and thoughtless repetition in this thread is almost mind-boggling.

Converting a game that was built with the expectation of having one player into multiplayer can be tricky - complex work, requiring lots of effort. Definitely.

Converting a game that was built to handle multiple players into handling one is typically trivial, because guess what? Most of those games already perfectly handle a single player, with no changes needed. Don't Starve Together is no different...

It is extremely doable to combine Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together into one game (not to mention that they are already very similar technically, but even that is beside the point). You'd simply use the Don't Starve Together base for both. MANY games work like this (in them, single-player internally works like locally hosting a one-player server). There is no need for two "engines". The existing balance and behavior changes between the two modes of playing are trivial to implement within the same game, it's a matter of a simple if() statement checking a boolean global var (i.e. is_world_multiplayer), it is literally among the simplest and fastest computations in programming to make... Whoever said it's going to slow the game down - wow, man! Any sort of possible debugging feature will slow the game more, and it will still not be a meaningful effect.

In response to something else often-repeated: Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together are no more 'different games' than different game-modes in a game are (e.g. in DS, Sandbox Mode and Adventure Mode). Gee, as if it's unheard of that games have both singleplayer and multiplayer mode, that some things in gameplay differ between. Let's not kid ourselves here...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying creating DST is as easy as creating a gamemode; that could only be a potential case if DS was built from the ground up with multiplayer and networking in mind, which it likely wasn't.

Seriously, didn't you guys already notice that you can perfectly play Don't Starve Together as single-player as-is (in fact it could, in a way, potentially be a good idea for players looking a different and more hardcore mode)?. Did you think that making things like the health mobs spawn with or have, or the effect certain items have, change according to whether the Jury Rigged Portal exists in the world or not is tough, difficult and messy to do? It isn't any of those things.

When programming, you have freedom, when you have the source code of a program, you are free to add and change things wherever you want - there aren't arbitrary limitations like there may be in mod-making.

To elaborate, it is, again, an if() statement, a rudimentary, simple one at that, and nothing more. For non-programmers, it is simply like checking whether a flag is raised or not, or an option is active or not. It is about definitely no more complex than implementing the different settings during world generation. A player tries to activate a Touchstone? if(is_world_multiplayer), then the game ignores the attempt (like in DST), otherwise, he can activate it (like in DS). A player dies without an Amulet of Life Saving equipped? if(is_world_multiplayer) then he turns into a ghost, otherwise the DS behavior happens (auto-activate Touchstone/Meat Effigy or delete world/exit adventure mode). A boss mob is spawned? if(is_world_multiplayer) then it has x2 the health as normal, or just loads from a predetermined multiplayer value - otherwise, it has the normal DS health. Etc. It's all like this, it's nowhere near the difficulty presented in this thread, and it is more than just doable.

No, it would not be very hard to make it possible to start a singleplayer world and later enable multiplayer in it, even via an in-game action of building the Jury Rigged Portal, either (you could probably do something similar in a DST mod currently, too). I believe not only I, but many players have dreamed of this - letting friends join up on an existing world of yours.

Of course, it is not outside the realm of possibility for a talented programmer and reverse-engineer to build a program that converts saves between present-day DS and DST, either. It would definitely be possible for the developer, having access to the sources of everything.

As for why the merge isn't done, as of this moment Don't Starve Together is incomplete and considered beta/experimental, while Don't Starve is complete and considered stable. This could be thought of as a good reason. Maybe they will make the merge once DST is complete - it will certainly give them certain advantages (such as not needing to track two separate projects - duplicate new features between two projects, maintain the bugs of two codebases etc) and similar ones to the modding community, but it is obviously not in their best interests to do that, that isn't hard to figure out.

Usually when xirmix talks about compatability he wants to show off/keep his single player worlds in multiplayer, ones that already exist.

[DarkXero]

http://www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart

[Pyromailmann]

It is extremely doable to combine Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together into one game (not to mention that they are already very similar technically, but even that is beside the point).

 

Where's Rezecib when you need him?

[Johnny5isAlive]

@DarkXero, Fascinating. 

[LadyD]

If making DS multiplayer was easy- the developers would have done that instead of making an ENTIRE new game.

 There are a lot of very small differences that make up DST. Things that have been finely turned and balanced to suit multiplayer- the amount of certain items, the rewards and punishments for certain things. 

 

I think the two serve different needs and give different experiences. I wouldn't want them to be the same game.

I have gone through single player all the way to face the overlord/captive. I have taken his place far below- I really wish I had smashed that record player. 

Multiplayer is more about being WITH people than following a certain plot or fighting a certain enemy. The focus seems more on sharing or fighting over the island and its resources. 


 

[blubuild]

@jbeetle: Yeah, that's something we players want, I've covered that in my post. But c'mon, you shouldn't quote a huge post in full for no reason...

  

If making DS multiplayer was easy- the developers would have done that instead of making an ENTIRE new game.

1. Well, they did not make an entire (definitely not "ENTIRE") new game, because a great deal of it already existed and was reused (remember that a game is a big project that comprises many things). Let's just be realistic here.

2. As I'd said, programming-wise it wouldn't be easy to turn DS into multiplayer (not because of surface things like game mechanics), unless it was designed with it in mind from the ground up, and even in that case it still wouldn't be trivial. It is, however, quite trivial to give an already-done multiplayer version a singleplayer mode, i.e. modify DST to include the DS experience.

3. That is pretty naive: I'm not saying whether it is bad, but a developer obviously has motives to make what will be called "AN ENTIRELY NEW RELEASE/GAME" (to paraphrase you), rather than incorporate stuff into a single project. And that's pretty much the essence of expansion packs, and let me tell you, not all game expansion packs in existence are good or required tons of work, that is a fact.

 

There are a lot of very small differences that make up DST. Things that have been finely turned and balanced to suit multiplayer- the amount of certain items, the rewards and punishments for certain things. 

I think the two serve different needs and give different experiences. I wouldn't want them to be the same game.

Yep, everything quoted above is right. Except for the last part, which isn't completely 'accurate'.

Different releases of a game (to be honest, it's kind of a long shot to say "different games" here, it's not completely accurate, for sure) are really not required in order to fulfill different needs, and give different experiences. Ever heard of games having different gamemodes and difficulty modes?

Heck, Klei themselves even made a mod (Screecher) that plays very differently from the base game, yet is still designed as an addition to it, rather than a separate release. This serves well as an a random example.

[Pyromailmann]

1. Well, they did not make an entire (definitely not "ENTIRE") new game, because a great deal of it already existed and was reused (remember that a game is a big project that comprises many things). Let's just be realistic here.

They also had to recode the game and it's engine from the ground up. And people complained for an entire summer over it. 

Oh god the memories...

*shudders*

2. As I'd said, programming-wise it wouldn't be easy to turn DS into multiplayer (not because of surface things like game mechanics), unless it was designed with it in mind from the ground up, and even in that case it still wouldn't be trivial. It is, however, quite trivial to give an already-done multiplayer version a singleplayer mode, i.e. modify DST to include the DS experience.

It was for modders making DS co-op because they didn't do much work on it, despite being decently made. And have you even looked at the code for DS? They use Lua and C++. 

[Derpime]

Well,basically if dst has caves and ruins.Itself is DS.Just a twist that mobs health would be more than normal.Especially Dragonfly(27500)

 

If would be crazy if merge 2 toghether.Since 2 standalone would only have their own bugs.If you merge 2 toghether and then report a bug.It maybe even in other mode

 

Plus,the code would be very complicated(syncing,events,...)And it may even not compatible with eachother

[blubuild]

They also had to recode the game and it's engine from the ground up.

The general notion is right, but this is, naturally, an exaggeration. It had to be tons of work, but it's silly to think that 100% of the Don't Starve code was useless for Don't Starve Together, and that there was no ability to reuse any part of it (this is basically what you are saying). Similarly, it's a good guess that there wasn't much trouble with reusing a lot of backend (what you'd call 'engine') stuff, such as the rendering and graphics, sound engines, the world generation algorithms, among other things, as those still basically function the same (even if world generation was separated into the server).

Obviously, things like design, mechanics and assets could and were reused as-is, which is the prime reason why DST wouldn't objectively be considered a different or new game.

[Pyromailmann]

It had to be tons of work, but it's silly to think that 100% of the Don't Starve code was useless for Don't Starve Together

 

There were parts of the code the devs could use in DST, but still, they had to basically recode everything from DS because everything was made for singleplayer. That's the part you forget, everything in Don't Starve was made in a single player view. They weren't sure if Multiplayer could be handled because they were making everything in DS for a single player, not lots of different characters.

I think rezecib could explain this better, though.

[imsomony]

When DST was first announced, JoeW stated that they intended to make DST as an add-on to the original game, and as such, the price would go up to $19.99 (RoG not included). See this thread.

 

As development progressed, they realized that it was becoming more and more difficult and convoluted to keep both play modes coded together all-in-one. They eventually cut the cord and made them into 2 separate games. That severing also changed the estimated purchase price as well. I can't find the thread where that was stated, but hopefully someone else can.

[DarkXero]

@blubuild, I was going to write a huge ass post with the code differences.

But I realized halfway that I don't really care.

 

Do what you must, the decision to make extra pointless work just to satiate your autism is up to Klei.

I suggest you visit a doctor for anxiety pills if seeing two executables for a game trigger you so much.

 

 

[oCrapaCreeper]

DST is a separate game, it's a separate product you can purchase on Steam, and it's different from normal Don't Starve. There's no need to make this complicated, merging simply won't happen at this stage.

[blubuild]

There were parts of the code the devs could use in DST, but still, they had to basically recode everything from DS because everything was made for singleplayer.

Well, the two parts of that sentence aren't very reconcilable, that's what I'm saying...

 

That's the part you forget, everything in Don't Starve was made in a single player view.

Worry not, I did not forget this, on the contrary, I've referred to this multiple times already. This is from the beginning of my first post: "Converting a game that was built with the expectation of having one player into multiplayer can be tricky - complex work, requiring lots of effort."

My point, again, is that it's trivial to merge DS and DST (by using DST as the base), which contradicted lots of nonsense said within this thread. In fact, judging from the capabilities of existing mods I see, it should be something within the reach of a DST mod to accomplish (disallow more than one player until a certain condition e.g. a special structure is built, while there is only one player use DS-behavior for things - it's not particularly complex). Though Klei could dislike that, as it could hurt their ability to continue selling the original Don't Starve separately...

 

@blubuild, I was going to write a huge ass post with the code differences.

But I realized halfway that I don't really care.

Too bad you still cared enough about it to make a pointless post that added nothing to the table and included a personal attack, eh. Great job, you are so... cool? smart? Dunno what you were even going for, there.

It's good, however, that you didn't bother, because that, also, would've been a waste of time. I'll remind you again that my claims were that turning DS into DST was a lot of work and that incorporating DS into DST wouldn't be (and I've detailed just how it can be done and how simple it is). As I hope you can imagine, pointing out code differences between the two would've done zilch to contradict that. We should both be glad you've accidentally stumbled onto the good judgement call out of laziness, or whatever.

 

Do what you must, the decision to make extra pointless work just to satiate your autism is up to Klei.

Alright, silly man. It definitely would be pointless to do extra work of trivial complexity to be able to seamlessly convert from singleplayer to multiplayer, and vice versa.

That would sure only serve to satiate my autism, as clearly nobody else ever wanted to turn a singleplayer world of his into a multiplayer one, and there is zero utility or purpose in doing so, or in doing the reverse. You are so right.

 

I suggest you visit a doctor for anxiety pills if seeing two executables for a game trigger you so much.

You may wish to heed your own advice to seek such self-help, seeing as a random forum thread about a game "triggered" to forget the concept of intelligent discussion and stoop to arbitrary personal attacks on a person you know nothing about.

 

DST is a separate game, it's a separate product you can purchase on Steam, and it's different from normal Don't Starve.

Doesn't seem like you've fully read what you're replying to, here.

Well, anyone could claim a game with even a single (or even no) change is a new/separate one, I'm talking about what you should consider when thinking on your own, freely and objectively. In such thinking, DST should not be counted as a truly separate game, it's completely irrelevant to that whether it's being sold separately (see Pokemon Red and Blue, or countless other examples), and it is indeed different from normal Don't Starve - and so is playing Don't Starve with the perpetual night option on, or with the Screecher mod or with other mods (e.g. no permadeath mods), yet those experiences aren't regarded as separate games. And lastly, again, it is trivial and desirable to fully incorporate the Don't Starve experience within Don't Starve Together, and you can already play DST singleplayer at this moment, the experience will just be slightly different in some specific things (ignoring some features that aren't in DST yet, as it's in beta).

It could be a matter of the definition and philosophy one is using. The different versions of same-generation Pokemon games have minuscule differences between them, yet are marketed as separate products, in order to both provoke interaction between players and moneygrub; still, when speaking accurately, I wouldn't describe them as truly different games. They are, essentially, like the same game with a different setting or mod installed. If you disagree, then we are simply using different definitions of what constitutes a separate game, and that's fine, to each his own.

To give a contrary example of my thinking, the two games Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition and Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition use literally the same game engine (backbone), and are still irrevocably separate games (in the same series), because the majority of their actual gameplay content is completely different.

 

There's no need to make this complicated, merging simply won't happen at this stage.

It might in the future, and the only thing stopping a modder from beginning work on it right now might perhaps be a legal threat. I agree, though, there's no need to make this complicated, and I've elaborated my points far, far more than is necessary, in an effort to make 'em more understandable. I shall do so no more, and have gotten my thoughts out of my system, so to speak. Ironically enough, it should've been expected that it would have a contrary effect with some people, because it would cause them to simply read them partially.

[Johnnyprofane]

@blubuild, I was going to write a huge ass post with the code differences.

But I realized halfway that I don't really care.

Do what you must, the decision to make extra pointless work just to satiate your autism is up to Klei.

I suggest you visit a doctor for anxiety pills if seeing two executables for a game trigger you so much.

It's not cool to make fun of people with autism or use them as the brunt of a joke or insult. It's called punching down and is generally frowned upon.

Plus, what he's saying is accurate. In order to merge DST and DS using DS as a base is a nigh impossible order, but to do it in the reverse is much more simple. DST already has everything from DS except caves and ruins (which they're tackling anyways) so making a single player mode is essentially just tweaking some values (read: a lot of values) and adjusting a few character abilities. That's it.

Except adventure mode, of course.

Edit: @blubuild I would go back and like all your posts, not based on what you said, but the way you said it, but I'm too lazy. I personally don't care if they're merged, I own both and bought copies of both for everyone I want to play with already. But you handled yourself with class and explained things explicitly even when confronted with crass and generally less refined behavior. Kudos to you sir or Madame (also too lazy to figure your gender, but in all honesty, it doesn't matter to me anyways)

[XopherPM]

You can already play DST solo. It's easy to mod things to change health values etc. back to single player values. There's no reason for Klei to put the work in to merging the two games.

Even if they were to merge them you couldn't just load your old single player world into a multi-player setting without some kind of conversion process which would necessarily change and potentially break some things. And this probably could be done with a mod now, so again no reason for Klei to do it.

So we're talking months of work for what amounts to saving you a couple mouse clicks. It's just doesn't seem feasible to do so.