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Xizzzy

The Immortal who died.

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Xizzzy    10

I was reading a thread a few minutes ago where one user said the following.

Ora; I personally wish this game was harder, so that something would please for the love of God kill me. I've had a couple of mishaps where I died here and there, but I have so many amulets and meat effigies I am just plain not going anywhere any time Soon.

It gave me pause for thought that the way things are stacked up now its inevitable that players will reach this plateau of difficulty. So, I have several solutions to make the immortal, less immortal.

Amulets

- Give them some restrictive back story, ie. When you enter this world your life force is fractured among the flora and fauna therein and can only be restored 12 times in total. Each time life is given where it was lost a little bit of your soul ebbs away like the waves on the sandy shore and you are that much closer to permanent rest. (12 for the hours on a clock symbolic of mortality and time left)

Effigy

- You can keep making these until they litter the fields of your world but only 12 in combination with the above restriction will function.

- This is more or less a meat puppet so, other surviving things will want to eat it, naturally. Give them the desire to do so. You'll need fences or some cheap barricade to protect a valuable possession such as this and beat back all of those who wish to nibble. The nibblers will be capable of dealing damage relative to their strength to the barricade so you'll need to really keep an eye out. It will attract those you don't want to attract as well adding danger to your camp but needing to be nearby or they'll just eat it.

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iHasRainboez    10

So wolfang would get a 200 hunger and 200 for eternity, Wendy get a ghost that can kill 20+ Beefalos in one night and Willow get a eternal fire... Wilson would be just useless. That's his thing, I don't want it to be changed. As for the amulets, yes, there should be a nerf, but not a cap. The amount of amulets you get from graves should be low, like 1% and making hell hound harder to spawn...

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Uszaty    19

Resurrection mechanisms that easy to obtain in a game based on a challenge to survive are anti-fun. This is why so many people on the forums cry of boredom because they are playing 200+ days with 10+ Meat Effigies and see no challenge whatsoever.

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xeezy    10

Just put a cap on the meat effigys like one or two, it'll be good enough. And let Amulets always work, considering you have to find them / craft them, and you need them equipped for it to work and sacrifice an item etc.

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Xizzzy    10
Should just set a cap of 1 effigy at any given time

No, I think a finite number of "lives' is more than reasonable considering it lets you maintain your world. it forces you to value the life you live and not just prepare for the next reincarnation.

As for the amulets, yes, there should be a nerf, but not a cap.

Again, i think a cap is necessary because the mechanic is just used to death so to speak and to great effect. You live forever which I don't think was in the spirit of how this game is meant to play out. if you manage to live forever that is one thing but if you can just keep respawning endlessly then I don't think that is what would benefit the game at all. there is no need to fear starvation if you can just pop up the next moment as a result of good planning an infinite number of times. That is what this is atm, an infinite lives complex.

Resurrection mechanisms that easy to obtain in a game based on a challenge to survive are anti-fun. This is why so many people on the forums cry of boredom because they are playing 200+ days with 10+ Meat Effigies and see no challenge whatsoever.

Correct, the obtain should probably be left the way it is but the use is what I aim to alter. It will make you more wary, paranoid, thrilled that you lived through that 89th day when all hell broke loose. In short you'd have fun surviving the day and especially the night without the endless re-assurance of infinite lives.

Just put a cap on the meat effigys like one or two, it'll be good enough. And let Amulets always work, considering you have to find them / craft them, and you need them equipped for it to work and sacrifice an item etc.

This doesn't change the fact that they are a source of infinite lives so I still maintain that there should be a cap.

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tangmcgame    10

A few alternative ideas to deal with the issue:

1) Double the resource cost of Effigies.

2) Give Effigies a duration. They last 7 days or something like that. You have to be smarter about using them.

3) Every time you resurrect, you lose 20% of your maximum health and hunger. It might be "science," but it ain't perfect.

4) Have hounds attack and eat Meat Effigies. This would make surviving the massive endgame packs a real challenge.

5) Whenever you're resurrected a nemesis of some kind is spawned on the map. It hunts you. It's deadly. It should take some special consideration to fight it.

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iHasRainboez    10

For the meat effigy cost, it's fine if it costs more beard hair...Is the 20% lost of health and hunger eternal, that would not be nice. I think we should have something attack meat effigies, but not hounds. They're so easy to kill..Maybe make spiders attack it? So you must deal with spider queen before making effigy..

Simple solution don't freaking use them.....

This. Just set your own rules, in my case, I said I can only make meat effigy every 365 days. And a amulet every month ingame.

Although for the realism the resurrection should be nerfed, but it needs to be logical. You can't just set cap, it doesn't make sense. Maybe make it so you must travel as soul to the meat effigy to be able to resurrect, confronting monsters and such...

You can check dream world suggestion, similiar to that.

Edited by iHasRainboez

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tangmcgame    10

Well, the rationale for hounds attacking them rather than spiders is that you can't dictate your proximity to hounds and they're the only enemy I know of that will ignore Wilson to eat meat. I don't necessarily think they should prioritize Effigies if you're close to them, but if you're nowhere around, they should go for the easy food.

Another idea I had. Instead of losing permanent health whenever you resurrect at an Effigy, what if you lose permanent health when you make the Effigy and are only returned a portion of that when you come back. Say, you lose 20% when you make one and get back half of that when you use it. Take Wilson and have him make 3 Effigies. The first time he loses 20 max health, dropping him to 80. The second time, he loses 16 health, dropping him to 64. Third time, 12 (rounding in player's favor and for easier math in a sec), so his max health is a dismal 52.

He dies once and regains 6 max health (58). Dies again and regains 8 (64). Dies yet again and he's back up 10 points (to 74 total). It'd be punishing whether or not you actually die and it would definitely prohibit spamming Effigies while firmly putting the choice in players' hands.

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McMatthew    22
A few alternative ideas to deal with the issue

Give Effigies a duration. They last 7 days or something like that. You have to be smarter about using them.

I would also suggest this. If coupled with only allowing one meat effigy at a time, it would definitely make them less desirable. Maybe as the days pass, the probability that they work is decreased by 10% or more.

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Syd    232

I'm not exactly sure what should be done with effigies, but something needs to change, as they are far too effective. Having even one reliable extra life in a game that is otherwise very roguelike should be a big deal. The player shouldn't have the ability to set up an entire forest of effigies.

I don't have as much of a problem with amulets as you not only have to make sure you're always carrying at least one with you, but you have to remember to equip it when you're facing certain death. They also immediately resurrect you on the spot, so whatever it was that just killed you could very well kill you again. Amulets probably should be made more rare, though.

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McMatthew    22

If there was an item that there was only one of in the game (like Wilson's waistcoat or something), it could be used to create a single meat effigy and would be dropped once the effigy had been used, so you could only make one at a time.

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buttercup    71

I got one. How about making it so the effigy only works with Wilson? I mean, logically, it's his special ability, made with his hair, AND it looks like him, so it doesn't make much sense that you could swap back and forth between characters and still have the effigy work.

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Xizzzy    10
Well, the rationale for hounds attacking them rather than spiders is that you can't dictate your proximity to hounds and they're the only enemy I know of that will ignore Wilson to eat meat. I don't necessarily think they should prioritize Effigies if you're close to them, but if you're nowhere around, they should go for the easy food.

Another idea I had. Instead of losing permanent health whenever you resurrect at an Effigy, what if you lose permanent health when you make the Effigy and are only returned a portion of that when you come back. Say, you lose 20% when you make one and get back half of that when you use it. Take Wilson and have him make 3 Effigies. The first time he loses 20 max health, dropping him to 80. The second time, he loses 16 health, dropping him to 64. Third time, 12 (rounding in player's favor and for easier math in a sec), so his max health is a dismal 52.

He dies once and regains 6 max health (58). Dies again and regains 8 (64). Dies yet again and he's back up 10 points (to 74 total). It'd be punishing whether or not you actually die and it would definitely prohibit spamming Effigies while firmly putting the choice in players' hands.

This idea isn't bad but its still less threatening than a cap would be given this could be treated as a forbidden science last resort style of thing, rather than a picnic upon grim death.

If there was an item that there was only one of in the game (like Wilson's waistcoat or something), it could be used to create a single meat effigy and would be dropped once the effigy had been used, so you could only make one at a time.

That is certainly an interesting idea for having one effigy around and it gave me a grim idea about needing to chop off a limb of wilson's with an axe and fix it to the effigy dealing himself damage and causing some kind of handicap not a suggestion mind you but a funny thought. The unique item to restrict effigy is a good one but you can just keep using it without a cap. The reason there are so many complaints about a cap is because it poses a serious danger to eternal life and is therefore a valid change in difficulty. The idea that you want control over death is certainly a goal of science but it is also part of science that we do not have that, but in this game we do and I think that should change.

I got one. How about making it so the effigy only works with Wilson? I mean, logically, it's his special ability, made with his hair, AND it looks like him, so it doesn't make much sense that you could swap back and forth between characters and still have the effigy work.

having it only work with wilson is definitely what I personally expected it to do but for balance it does need to be shared with the others. Even though it would certainly make more sense to only work with him. overall even though I like this idea having one immortal character and the others be mortal wouldn't work sadly.

Edited by Xizzzy

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buttercup    71
having it only work with wilson is definitely what I personally expected it to do but for balance it does need to be shared with the others. Even though it would certainly make more sense to only work with him. overall even though I like this idea having one immortal character and the others be mortal wouldn't work sadly.

It's Wilson's special ability, though. Every character has a different perk, and that's great. You can pick whatever character is best for how you want to play! It's not like Wilson's perk is instant resurrection, it's just a slightly better way to bring yourself back than the amulet.

Besides, the effigy isn't really a given thing. You gotta grow a lot of beard hair to get it, and also kill things that fight back. So there's always the chance you'll die just trying to make the stupid thing. :D

(I also had the thought, when sanity is implemented, resurrection is probably gonna take a SERIOUS toll on your brain meter. Coming back from the dead is super stressful, yo. It would also be fun if you could only build the effigy when you're at less than half sanity, because of MAD SCIENCE.)

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I don't like the idea of this at all. There just needs to be more content in the game, less huge biomes and more variety, not limiting what we already have available. That's the complete opposite of fun.

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Sarcosuchus    455

I love the idea of mad science allowing you to craft things that you normally couldn't, but I'm not sure the effigy should be one of them. I agree that if anything's mad science, making a meat frankenstein to bring you back after death is. But if you have to be at low sanity to make it, and using it drains your sanity a lot, you might be looking at Wilson coming back from the dead, only to run off stark raving bonkers from the experience. This would be especially true if the effegies had an expiration date, as previously discussed.

Though I will add, I'm a little sad that Wilson's effigies can be used by all the characters. I know it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, but it does make all the other characters seem OP in comparison, especially Wolfgang. Wilson should have some other compensation, though it can't be researched based, since that's Wickerbottom's perk.

Ooooh. Idea.

What if Wilson's perk is his sanity drops more slowly than the others? Willow and Wendy already both seem a bit more...unstable than Wilson, so their sanities would probably drop more quickly. After all, Wilson wants to conquer all with the power of his mind. Maybe the scientific point of view helps him calm himself down by looking at the facts? Just a thought.

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Ora    10

I'm too tired to read through this entire thread right now, but I do agree that something needs to be done about meat effigies. I just... have so many of them, and every time I die I am spurred to make at least two more. So they just keep multiplying.

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Xizzzy    10
It's Wilson's special ability, though. Every character has a different perk, and that's great. You can pick whatever character is best for how you want to play! It's not like Wilson's perk is instant resurrection, it's just a slightly better way to bring yourself back than the amulet.

Besides, the effigy isn't really a given thing. You gotta grow a lot of beard hair to get it, and also kill things that fight back. So there's always the chance you'll die just trying to make the stupid thing.

(I also had the thought, when sanity is implemented, resurrection is probably gonna take a SERIOUS toll on your brain meter. Coming back from the dead is super stressful, yo. It would also be fun if you could only build the effigy when you're at less than half sanity, because of MAD SCIENCE.)

I agree with that, and had forgotten about the amulets being a universal item others could use for some reason. So wilson should be the only one to use his creations as his own special perk. As the others can create their own versions via the amulet or find them. The mad science is certainly interesting as an idea if its done right I like that as well.

ButtercupSaiyan

I don't like the idea of this at all. There just needs to be more content in the game, less huge biomes and more variety, not limiting what we already have available. That's the complete opposite of fun.

You my dear, have missed the boat entirely. Allow me to explain, content is fine when it fits in neatly with everything else and doesn't take away from a game. however, the effigy and amulets as they are create a sinkhole for difficulty by providing simple immortality which therein creates boredom. I think you can agree that being bored in a game is not fun. Limiting is a means to refine how content works so it can be seen in a different light rather than an easy way out of a dangerous situation so you can keep all of your stuff.

What if Wilson's perk is his sanity drops more slowly than the others? Willow and Wendy already both seem a bit more...unstable than Wilson, so their sanities would probably drop more quickly. After all, Wilson wants to conquer all with the power of his mind. Maybe the scientific point of view helps him calm himself down by looking at the facts? Just a thought.

I like this just a thought because he does seem to be rather stable by comparison. i think a scientific point of view would indeed make you more rational and less likely to be driven insane unless certain circumstances did it but by that same standard the idea of mad science would make it harder to regain your sanity. the bar should be hard to move universally. if you're sane its not easy to go insane and if you've made it to being insane it should be a trek to get your sanity back.

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Sarcosuchus    455

Thanks Xizzzy. I agree that sanity shouldn't be as malleable as hunger or health, otherwise Wilson could give his brain whiplash by going from distinguished to raving and back again within the span of a few hours. Luckily, it seems like many of the signifigant elements to regain your sanity are hard to come by. The dapper vest is expensive, especially due to the low drop rate of hound's teeth, and the top hat requires a load of silk. But then again, your sanity is supposed to be raised by "acts of civility" such as cooking, which is fairly easy to do. The hat and vest would probably count for huge chunks of the meter, whereas eating a honey ham would only count for a few points. Madmen like honeyed ham just as much as the rest of us :).

I would love to see the mad science element, however. It's nice to think of something besides the art style changing with your sanity level, and it gives the player a reason to risk their sanity if there are both perks and detriments to being insane. Though I am assuming, that when sanity runs out completely, it's game over, like hunger or health. It would still be nice to have some kind of special ending with a gloating Maxwell, or something like that.

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Xizzzy    10
I would love to see the mad science element, however. It's nice to think of something besides the art style changing with your sanity level, and it gives the player a reason to risk their sanity if there are both perks and detriments to being insane. Though I am assuming, that when sanity runs out completely, it's game over, like hunger or health. It would still be nice to have some kind of special ending with a gloating Maxwell, or something like that.

perhaps mad science could be something like, certain activity and/or research are only available when your sanity meter is low enough. That is, you need to be insane enough to even attempt them. Also, I think the idea of being 100% insane would to me not mean a gameover but be more like you lose control of your character for x amount of time and if he dies during that you lose and if he doesn't you quickly "come to your senses" as rapidly as you the user possibly can before he goes off on another trip to burn down a forest, kick beehives, kick beefalo, kick spider nests and try to hug spiders, kick pigmen, ride on krampus or just go into the night without a light source. These things to me imply insanity but game over would just be a dull way to express it.

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Sarcosuchus    455
Also, I think the idea of being 100% insane would to me not mean a gameover but be more like you lose control of your character for x amount of time and if he dies during that you lose and if he doesn't you quickly "come to your senses" as rapidly as you the user possibly can before he goes off on another trip to burn down a forest, kick beehives, kick beefalo, kick spider nests and try to hug spiders, kick pigmen, ride on krampus or just go into the night without a light source. These things to me imply insanity but game over would just be a dull way to express it.

Now that you bring it up, I agree. Sanity should be an entirely different beast when it comes to filling/losing/running out of it. I forget where I saw it, but another thread had a list of potential effects of low sanity... seeing monsters that aren't there, hearing hounds that never come, seeing pigmen as werepigs, etc. Things that affect the player and their playstyle as much as Wilson. I like that way of thinking of it, because for him, until he snaps out of it, it seems real. You also have to treat the hallucinations seriously, because you don't know what's real and what's not.

Though I also like the idea of him having a blackout when he's insane: waking up to find resources gone, chests moved, items eaten, pig villages decimated, etc.

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Xizzzy    10
Now that you bring it up, I agree. Sanity should be an entirely different beast when it comes to filling/losing/running out of it. I forget where I saw it, but another thread had a list of potential effects of low sanity... seeing monsters that aren't there, hearing hounds that never come, seeing pigmen as werepigs, etc. Things that affect the player and their playstyle as much as Wilson. I like that way of thinking of it, because for him, until he snaps out of it, it seems real. You also have to treat the hallucinations seriously, because you don't know what's real and what's not.

Though I also like the idea of him having a blackout when he's insane: waking up to find resources gone, chests moved, items eaten, pig villages decimated, etc.

maybe seeing certain harmless things as harmful ones randomly or harmful ones as being harmless. hallucinating a beefalo as being a rabbit and then being chased by a very angry rabbit that more or less inflates into the size of a beefalo but the shape of a rabbit adding to your insane character's twisted reality. If you manage to kill this crazy big bunny it splits into a group of other smaller but threatening things or just something odd like meat items drop but then against probability begin to run away of their own accord and you have to chase them down if you want them or they'll reform into some kind of meat monster. The question is, do you let wilson die from a hallucination or does he just wake up throttling a log on the ground furiously. hallucination is a great medium for installing insanity to the world but from my point of view its too simple to just see what isn't there but that could be an early level of insanity and full blown version could be what I described or worse. being chased by a pissed off berry bush would be quite amusing.

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Sarcosuchus    455

For the record, the image of Wilson putting a log into a headlock like a wrestler cracked me up. Mostly because he is the opposite of a wrestler, and the idea of how embarrassed he would be when he snapped out of it...but possibly because the log has a serious chance of winning. Splinters, man. They're vicious killers.

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