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RalphKastro

Is Wendy too good now?

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RalphKastro    1337

so, I usually only play Wendy in singleplayer, and it all feels very balanced as I can destroy hordes of small monsters, but Abigail tends to die when I need her the most, forcing me to fight by myself sometimes. but in DST, I found that most of the possible problems that people have trouble with don't exist with her, and the only thing that possibly kills me is a new player not knowing about Abigail and killing her by accident.

I never have trouble making Telltale hearts because of Abigail's AOE attack, food is always a plenty, as I can go hunting by myself and kill things in the dark for bonus damage with only a log suit and a spear, Booster shots come too easily because abigail just murders bees and hound waves just end too fast for me to even notice them.

The only downsides is that I can't kill big monsters(Deerclops, Spider Queen) so easily, and my sanity is constantly bellow 100, but all I need is a top hat, and it normalizes again.

Any other Wendy player is feeling that, or is it just me being paranoid about balance issues?

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RalphKastro    1337
If Abigail could attack sanity monsters, then she'd be OP. But she can't. So I think she's fine. P:
well, I never get insane due to Wendy's perks, so that's never a problem for me. 

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avilmask    104

Only thing I still want for Wendy is an AI switch to enable "escape" mode for Abigail. There was a mod like this for DS, but I don't know if it will be possible to make for DST.

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Asparagus    9121

(for some reason quoting or mentioning for me does not work)

 

So, is it anything like the pet mechanics in Torchlight 1 and 2 where you can toggle your pet's actions from being passive, defensive, or aggressive towards mobs?

 

if not, then why not?

O_o

 

I am also a Wendy player and I feel it's balanced enough... I do feel however that Abigail's behavior is sometimes annoying, especially when I try to get an individual beefalo away from the herd by shooting it with an ice staff... and tentacles, but I try to "push" her to tell her to go where I want to in the swamps... not always successful...

 

So basically, she's kinda OP for experienced/mildly experienced players... but the trade-off would be her over-aggressive behavior... so should she have a kiting option? Maybe...

 

but that's just me...

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RalphKastro    1337
if not, then why not?
I'm not sure of how it is in Torchlight, but from what you're describing, I guess this was never implemented because it's too UI intensive. 

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Asparagus    9121

I'm not sure of how it is in Torchlight, but from what you're describing, I guess this was never implemented because it's too UI intensive. 

 

 

I guess you're right about that... plus it will take a lot of coding...

 

but if it was implemented, then it would be just 3 buttons at the top-left corner the had symbols for aggressive (red), defensive (blue) and passive (green)

 

Clicking on:

 

Red: Will make Abigail go for any enemy mob/monster she comes near with...

Blue: Will make Abigail ignore all other threats to her and come to Wendy's aid... basically her default self...

Green: Will make her ignore all mobs; avoiding them if possible even if they're attacking Wendy... useful for tentacle-ridden areas...

 

Probably use the Pig AI for RED, Default AI for Blue, and... Bird AI for Green?

 

But that's just a suggestion...

 

Please make it happen Klei, please...

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rezecib    3152

You don't need a whole UI system just for Abigail. Clicking on her normally currently does nothing functional, so you could add an action that makes Wendy say "Come here, Abby!" or "Protect me, Abby!" to switch modes. Could even make it right-click if you want to make it easier to avoid accidental switching.

 

I think I'll look into adding something like that for Strange New Powers Together.

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Asparagus    9121

@RalphKastro, hmm... too much control for her does make it too easy... I guess you're right... if it were to be implemented, Wendy would have to be powered down even more to balance it out...

 

but hypothetically, what aspect of her's do you think will/should be affected?

 

 @rezecib, hmm... but what if for example, you wanted to click on something on the ground and she happens to wander under the mouse pointer and you accidentally order her to do something you didn't mean to? I mean, we we do have that "Log Meter" for Woodie, but I guess that's just 1 meter that replaced the Health, Hunger, and Sanity meters when he transforms... but still...

 

I'm looking forward to that mod you're making :-)

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rezecib    3152
but what if for example, you wanted to click on something on the ground and she happens to wander under the mouse pointer and you accidentally order her to do something you didn't mean to?
Yeah, I'll probably make it right-click for that reason. Unless I end up adding a different action to right-click, I guess.

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avilmask    104

About balance thingy. You're right that Abigail is extremely strong in experienced hands. And as more you play her as more you understand, how her passive resistance to darkness is powerful too. But you're missing that she is really bad versus big monsters, and big monsters are actual main threat in DS, because you have a load of ways to deal with hordes of little monsters, but very little with big ones. It especially noticeable in RoG (I hope it will hit DST someday) with it's almost guaranteed giants every season. And losing Abigail after every visit to the swamp or beeffalo hunt it's just ridiculous (i.e vulnerability for next 3 days + guaranteed -50 sanity).

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Asparagus    9121
About balance thingy. You're right that Abigail is extremely strong in experienced hands. And as more you play her as more you understand, how her passive resistance to darkness is powerful too. But you're missing that she is really bad versus big monsters, and big monsters are actual main threat in DS, because you have a load of ways to deal with hordes of little monsters, but very little with big ones. It especially noticeable in RoG (I hope it will hit DST someday) with it's almost guaranteed giants every season. And losing Abigail after every visit to the swamp or beeffalo hunt it's just ridiculous (i.e vulnerability for next 3 days + guaranteed -50 sanity).

 

So... do you agree that she should have a control mechanism (to avoid enemies/better arm her for combat) or not? (Sorry if I didn't get what you were trying to say)

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avilmask    104

So... do you agree that she should have a control mechanism (to avoid enemies/better arm her for combat) or not? (Sorry if I didn't get what you were trying to say)

 

I'm first who mentioned it in this thread! :)

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I think currently (in DST) Wendy is the most powerfull character, by a noticeable margin.

 

My suggestion would be to increase Abigails HP slightly, but nerf either her AOE damage, or preferably, the amount of targets she can hit to a maximum of 2 or 3 at a time.

 

Where I seem to hear the most "Abigail OP" statements comes after other players watch her tank 6-10+
spiders, kill them all without a players intervention, and not break a sweat.

 

I think Wendy needs Abigail as a tank.  I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise.  But I do feel there is a line between a Tank and Damage dealer that she has crossed, which needs to be looked at.

 

In addition, before you throw out this arguement, I also ask to everyone to consider the following:

In Don't Stave, not being hit is absolutely key.

In multiplayer DST, with the inherent delays due to netcode and latency, moving in and out is a lot less reliable. So much so, when playing anyone besides Wendy, I now rush to better armor ASAP... and even then fighting is a much riskier proposition at the best of times.

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avilmask    104

I think currently (in DST) Wendy is the most powerfull character, by a noticeable margin.

 

My suggestion would be to increase Abigails HP slightly, but nerf either her AOE damage, or preferably, the amount of targets she can hit to a maximum of 2 or 3 at a time.

 

Where I seem to hear the most "Abigail OP" statements comes after other players watch her tank 6-10+

spiders, kill them all without a players intervention, and not break a sweat.

 

I think Wendy needs Abigail as a tank.  I dont think anyone is arguing otherwise.  But I do feel there is a line between a Tank and Damage dealer that she has crossed, which needs to be looked at.

 

In addition, before you throw out this arguement, I also ask to everyone to consider the following:

In Don't Stave, not being hit is absolutely key.

In multiplayer DST, with the inherent delays due to netcode and latency, moving in and out is a lot less reliable. So much so, when playing anyone besides Wendy, I now rush to better armor ASAP... and even then fighting is a much riskier proposition at the best of times.

Wabber don't even need to kill spiders himself, they just kill each other by their own. And Wigfrid regenerates HP when killing enemies. That's cooler than ability to not get hit when dealing with small hordes. As far as you don't aggro a whole egg with it's soldiers, she just get a free health.

And in RoG Wendi'll become less powerful. When Wolfgang was able to kill some giants just tanking them 1 v 1, for her all giants are pain in the back. She is already quite frail :/

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Michi01    1772
Wabber don't even need to kill spiders himself, they just kill each other by their own.

I just played some single player with him and after twenty days I had a chest full of silk.

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RalphKastro    1337
About balance thingy. You're right that Abigail is extremely strong in experienced hands. And as more you play her as more you understand, how her passive resistance to darkness is powerful too. But you're missing that she is really bad versus big monsters, and big monsters are actual main threat in DS, because you have a load of ways to deal with hordes of little monsters, but very little with big ones. It especially noticeable in RoG (I hope it will hit DST someday) with it's almost guaranteed giants every season. And losing Abigail after every visit to the swamp or beeffalo hunt it's just ridiculous (i.e vulnerability for next 3 days + guaranteed -50 sanity).

that's a fair point, but it doens't really apply right now. From my experience in DST, big monsters are actually more of a looming threat, making me play overcautiously, than a actual threat, and, with the exception of Deerclops, I can just avoid them most of the time. I don't think it even matches up with vanilla all that much either, as when fighting a big monster I can just tell other people to do it(like a Wolfgang) and don't have to care about them. It just feels weird that Wendy has better overall sanity, stronger in combat against anything but Bosses and tentacles(which only helps with sanity, because of silk), and as only penaulty the occasional attack nerf for 2-3 days(sanity doesn't count that much, since once you get a top hat, sanity drain in itself is a non-issue).

I won't go so far as to compare it using RoG vallues, since I both don't know how they're going to implement it and don't like the direction they went with it.

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Asparagus    9121
I'm first who mentioned it in this thread!

*Activate my dodo brain!!

haha, sorry for that :3

 

Webber don't even need to kill spiders himself, they just kill each other by their own. And Wigfrid regenerates HP when killing enemies. That's cooler than ability to not get hit when dealing with small hordes. As far as you don't aggro a whole egg with it's soldiers, she just get a free health. And in RoG Wendy'll become less powerful. When Wolfgang was able to kill some giants just tanking them 1 v 1, for her all giants are pain in the back. She is already quite frail :/

 

Back in RoG, I frequently 1-on-1 a Giants (except the Dragonfly... used the sleepdart/panflute + gunpowder trick with him) with Wendy... logsuit + Slurtle Shelmet and dark sword (with a reserve hambat ) killed it without Abigail and without a scratch...

(turn on bragging rights...)

 

But yeah, because of the Lag, even experienced players such as myself (over-killing bragging rights up in here), you won't be able to do much damage and not get off unscathed...

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avilmask    104

But yeah, because of the Lag, even experienced players such as myself (over-killing bragging rights up in here), you won't be able to do much damage and not get off unscathed...

 

That's exactly what I pointed out, tanking damage! :-) Maybe Abigail is useful vs little things, but when there is a big thing, she is just an anchor.

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Zinglon    131

That's exactly what I pointed out, tanking damage! :-) Maybe Abigail is useful vs little things, but when there is a big thing, she is just an anchor.

 

Even if an anchor, Abigail is useful enough for setting up gunpowder or at least making time for decision of run or fighting.

 

Off-topic : Well, I think all of the characters in this game and DLC should be re-balanced to multiplayer game. Some are awkwardly suitable for certain situations(mostly griefing) while some are not. 

 

On-topic : Wendy is good for farming multiple spiders at once, makes her easier to get silks and foods without battle or trapcrafting, which seems to need a disadvantage for them. Wickybottom is very good character for farming, but have huge sanity-keeping downsides for that, although it can be solved by Tam o' Shanter the Almighty.

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