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Krampus.

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Marak    27

It seems like the Dec. 12th hotfixes might have been a bit much, as you now will never see a Krampus until you really, really try for it. I was raiding 3 Bunny Traps twice a day and picking off the occasional lone Pig Man (in hopes of getting me a spiffing Foot-to-ball Helmet) and have yet to catch a whiff of Krampus.

And as Keven said, he's not all that bad to begin with. But now, I'm not even sure I could summon him if I wanted to, short of building 8+ Animal Traps and camping bunny holes for a couple of days. If you have to try that hard to get the pushback mechanic to trigger, I'd argue that it ceases to be a pushback at all.

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Howard313    10
It seems like the Dec. 12th hotfixes might have been a bit much, as you now will never see a Krampus until you really, really try for it...

I agree, I've been purposefully trying to spawn him in hopes of getting that nifty bag of his. It took me four days of constant bunny slaughter to finally get him to start spawning. I really don't see any player triggering him without going out of their way to do it at this point.

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Quinton    14
I believe that the game is the most fun when you mix up your strategies. In fact, the whole theory behind the 'pushbacks' that I mentioned earlier is that they will make players vary their behaviour over time. The hope is that this will subtly lead them to discover more of the game's content, and make it so that it takes them longer to get bored.

I think some of the Krampus-hate comes from the perception that we are favouring one playstyle over another. This is not the case - we are going to be 'discouraging' pretty every playstyle that we can identify, to try to cap monotonous survival strategies. Doing the same thing again and again should result in Wilson's death, no matter what it is.

To me, this design approach reinforces my view of the game (based on a couple evenings of play) as a roguelike -- the player is thrown into a randomly generated environment which will have a random mix of resources and landscape that vary over time.

There are a number of different ways the player can make use of resources (presumably the range of possible interactions will continue to grow as the game is developed) such that the player will typically have a number of strategies for dealing with their short term and long term goals, but as resources are consumed, the player moves around, and events (random or triggered) occur, the player will be forced to adapt to the changing conditions.

Also there is permadeath. ^^

Overall, I'm enjoying the ride and look forward to things being further rounded out. I think my biggest gripe at the moment is that I feel like I have to do a *lot* of inventory management and while I realize that constrained inventory is part of the challenge, I feel like it is maybe a little too constrained at times.

Something as simple as being given a few (4? 6?) tool slots that are hotkey bound for quick-select and do not compete with the 10 general inventory slots might be nice. The tools swap when selected mechanism often makes it hairy to grab the right thing in a hurry (need that spear or net) as the bindings tend to shift as my stuff is being shuffled about.

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Aton Fei    10

I don't usually reply to anything I see, but after reading so many posts about Krampus I decided to make the effort to make an account for the sole purpose of replying. I like Krampus.

Krampus gives a new level of challenge to the game, and his initial appearance makes players try other methods to survive until they learn how to handle him. I was never really afraid of krampus since all he really does is steal your stuff; you can even corner him, and he drops a really nifty bag. I really want that bag, and it makes Krampus worth summoning. In fact that bag makes Krampus look like a weak boss I can summon over and over again to steal his loot, so it really bums me out that people keep complaining about him, which makes devs spawn him less. I like the idea of tough enemies being spawn-able by the players control; it keeps the game from going stagnate when you finish collecting all beehives, spider nests, and berry bushes like I do. Giving them such a rare item even gives off bragging rights to people who can get multiples of them.

I actually really like Krampus and the ways to handle him are as easy as wearing some form of armor and carrying a spear or tentacle spike. Having a pan flute or sleep darts makes it even easier and takes care of swarms. You can even use pan flutes multiple times. From my experience Krampus only appears where you killed the last critter that forced him to appear, so since traps don't immediately kill the animals, just carry a large sack full of them to another island to kill them all off.

Anyways, this is starting to get pretty long so, closing comments are that I like Krampus. I hope that there are more monsters you can summon and hope for the creation of craftable magic items to summon them faster without the middle man of killing tons of birds and pigmen.

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Spectrum    10

I have never met krampus, since yesterday when i summoned him by killing army of rabits. I really like him, but i have 2 things that u can change:

1. Increase drop rate of his bag to maybe 25 %? That will be a nice prize for killing him, and more people will manage to summon him just for his bag.

2. That voice - Khhhhhhh - when u kill some rabbit sounds .. bad. My idea:

9 rabbit kills - quiet.

After u would kill 10 bunnies, u would hear Krampus voice. That will be alarm to you, that u are very naughty. 3-5 bunnies killed would cause krampus to spawn. So, after 10 rabbit kills player will kill more bunnies, to spawn Krampii and kill him, or he would wait 1-2 days to reset naughty meter. This is very simple change, but this will give information to player when Krampus is really interested on him, and when he isnt. So, the players would be ready to visit him.

Kevin, you are great :)

Sorry for my english mistakes, and hello dont starve community!

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winddbourne    15

I think some people are missing the point, or at least missing MY point. I don't dislike krampus because of what he does, or because I fear him. I dislike him because I think he doesn't fit into the way the rest of the game works. He's a lousy band aid fix for a minor problem, and at the moment he's been nerfed to the point where he doesn't even "solve" the problem. If he's supposed to be push back for killing tons of animals he should spawn more often from that source, but he also should fit into the islands ecology and DO something related to animal spawns.

For example if i'm killing tons of animals it would make sense that scavengers spawn who eat rabbit/pig/beefolo corpses and try to attack me and/or steal all the meat I have on me. Such a spawn shouldn't just be a summon either, it should be an unlock, that first scavenger should stay until I actually kill it, not vanish from the world into another dimension. Eventually if I keep slaughtering animals we should have a scavenger nodes start to appear on my maps and they should spawn normally, just like the rabbits do. The same should eventually happen with the hounds. I want to eventually find a hound lair somewhere near a source of meat since hounds are carvivores and pigmen, beefolo, rabbits, etc . . . are their "normal" prey when I'm not on the island.

Something like Krampus can also be awesome, but not the way it was first implemented. It's a random, out of place, annoying event. As a rare summon, like it is now, I don't mind it, but it still doesn't fit. Of course if we add more summons, and actual tools to bring them to the island "demons" might suddenly fit in better, but right now he's a one of a kind sort of guy. Nobody else behaves this way.

The closest we come are the tree guardians, but dormant tree guardians look like pine trees and they never despawn until you kill them. So I can say to myself that some of these pine trees are the guardians young. Your going to get one eventually, he's just another natural part of the world.

This is a game where you try to survive as long as possible without being bored stiff. It's not a real rogue like because Wilson gets extra lives, as does anyone who builds an amulet. It's a survival toy box game, and I expect the world to evolve and become more challenging over time, and to present me with different problems every season. I do not expect that the developers are out to get me, or that things won't make sense as I go forward and learn more about the island.

Edited by winddbourne

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Syd    233

I would agree that it's actually too hard to trigger Krampus spawning now. I had spent the last few ingame days doing almost nothing but mindless murder and I still haven't seen him. I'll spend the day killing rabbits/birds, get him close to spawning (his hiss had gotten quite loud), but then night falls so I'd run back to camp to handle whatever needs to be handled, and by the time morning comes and I resume the slaughter, his hiss is significantly quieter.

I think the problem at the moment is that he simply "forgets" naughtiness too quickly.

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WoeUntoYou    10
I think you guys are all reading way too much into the "punishment" angle of Krampus. He's a mob with a trigger, just like any other. Nobody really complains about being punished by the tree gaurdian when they chop down trees, and that guy is straight up trying to kill you! Krampus is relatively easy to kill / distract, and is at worst a minor annoyance.

It is fascinating as a designer to see some of the responses that he has been getting. I think it has to do with the messaging. By saying that he is "punishing you for being naughty" I think we are priming people to take umbrage. If we changed the art to be more of a faun-like monster, and framed him as the "guardian of the woodland creatures" who takes revenge in the name of his people, I don't think he would be as controversial. But the fact that we framed it as "punishment" made people very defensive.

I mean, compare Krampus to the hounds. Every so often, I spawn a bunch of tough mobs for no real reason other than to try to kill you. Later in the game, I send in even tougher ones that burn down your entire base if you don't kill them in the right way. That's potentially catastrophic! And people love it! But the mob that steals a couple of items and then runs away, and is (post patch) only triggered if you go out of your way to summon him? Torches and pitchforks!

Psychology is neat! :)

You should make it kill us instead. It doesn't really pose any challenge/danger right now. It's just annoying.

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You should make it kill us instead. It doesn't really pose any challenge/danger right now. It's just annoying.

Every threat in the game is just an annoyance if you know how to deal with it properly.

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qwerm    18
You should make it kill us instead. It doesn't really pose any challenge/danger right now. It's just annoying.

nah, that'll be the spider queen in the next update.

and Krampii CAN permanently steal stuff if you let them get away, you really don't want them stealing any of your finite resources, do you?( rocks, flint, tentacle spikes)

Edited by qwerm

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Schatzy    11
So what's the point of Krampus? I mean, it's a game called "Don't Starve", not a game called "Better To Starve Than Kill Bunnies For Sustenance". Why are you punishing me in a survival game for killing and eating the wildlife to survive? Seems to me it's like the referee penalizing a football team for making a touchdown; that's the name of the game, not a crime against God. So I guess the point of this post is as follows.

Krampus: Why?

I would also like to know if Krampus is permanent, or if he is just something that was added as a Christmas time thing since the whole thing about "Naughty and Nice" kinda ties in with the Christmas holiday that is just around the corner.

Thanks.

He's pathetically easy to kill. Not to mention, all he does is steal your stuff. I just kill him as Soon as he comes, I don't see why you're complaining. I love Krampus and hope he's permanent. even though he's not.

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Jetexx    10

I like the Krampus, he seems friendly enough... although he does try to steal my items!

"NO! NOT GNOME CHOMPSKIEEEE!!

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Analogue    10

Krampus is a cool dude. Though now that I finally got his bag, I wish I hadn't had to kill so many bunnies to get it. It is cool looking though.

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PotatoDuke    10

Said it before and I'll say it again. The problem with Krampus isn't the difficulty factor. Krampus isn't hard to deal with. Actually, I'm not sure I should say that. I can easily see how Krampus could serve as a rather big negative customer experience for newer players.

Anyway, the point is that the difficulty factor of Krampus isn't the real problem. It's the concept behind it. You hunt rabbits for food and are considered a naughty person for it. That's how it was tooled up. It doesn't make sense. People like things to make sense. Doesn't even matter that you do it so little that Krampus never actually shows up. The concept doesn't make sense.

From my own standpoint, I think it's plain weird that I get to listen to someone's heavy breathing when I go hunting. Oh well, though. I suppose this is a game about weirdness.

Kevin was right in one of his previous posts. Perhaps Krampus should've been something different. Personally, I've never thought it should be removed. Maybe just re-dressed a little. Something with a more sensible concept and behavior.

Krampus may also be proof that Kevin might want to be careful with his ideas of pushbacks and counteracting player success. It's possible to be so up on that concept that you wind up making a game too oppressive for the average/casual player.

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501105    20

I look at it like Krampus is the guardian of the world somewhat. Krampus protects the animal that cant protect themselves and thus gets angry when you kill said animals. From the perspective of Krampus your are naughty for killing the animals that dont attack you unless provoked (though you could argue that beefaloo or pigmen can protect themselves easily enough). Keeping that in mind I suppose Krampus is more of stealing forest ranger than anything else.

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Xuhybrid    259
Said it before and I'll say it again. The problem with Krampus isn't the difficulty factor. Krampus isn't hard to deal with. Actually, I'm not sure I should say that. I can easily see how Krampus could serve as a rather big negative customer experience for newer players.

Anyway, the point is that the difficulty factor of Krampus isn't the real problem. It's the concept behind it. You hunt rabbits for food and are considered a naughty person for it. That's how it was tooled up. It doesn't make sense. People like things to make sense. Doesn't even matter that you do it so little that Krampus never actually shows up. The concept doesn't make sense.

From my own standpoint, I think it's plain weird that I get to listen to someone's heavy breathing when I go hunting. Oh well, though. I suppose this is a game about weirdness.

Kevin was right in one of his previous posts. Perhaps Krampus should've been something different. Personally, I've never thought it should be removed. Maybe just re-dressed a little. Something with a more sensible concept and behavior.

Krampus may also be proof that Kevin might want to be careful with his ideas of pushbacks and counteracting player success. It's possible to be so up on that concept that you wind up making a game too oppressive for the average/casual player.

I think you framed the problem well. I have been considering if the Krampus should be limited to killing the Pigmen and Beefalo (and Tallbirds too i guess). That way ur not haunted by heavy breathing for just normal hunting. The full meat should be managed by the Krampus, not the morsels. Thats just an idea i was playing with anyway because its not like he ever shows up for you just killing rabbits. Perhaps lower the threshold to trigger his visit if rabbits/birds are taken out of the equation.

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winddbourne    15
I look at it like Krampus is the guardian of the world somewhat. Krampus protects the animal that cant protect themselves and thus gets angry when you kill said animals. From the perspective of Krampus your are naughty for killing the animals that dont attack you unless provoked (though you could argue that beefaloo or pigmen can protect themselves easily enough). Keeping that in mind I suppose Krampus is more of stealing forest ranger than anything else.

The problem with this is that the world is supposed to be hostile, and to be the push back on the player, a constant puzzle to figure out and adjust to. It's not supposed to be actually out to get you. Push back for hunting too much meat and leaving corpses around should be scavengers like hyenas showing up, push back for killing defenseless animals should be them evolving into (or being replaced by) more threatening ones on the map. Intelligent enemies like the pigs should eventually start to defend themselves and behave differently. I've written several long posts on this topic before.

The idea of push back is central to this game, but it's totally different from the idea Kevin has hinted at recently of punishing players for doing things, or killing them for not changing the playstyle they find fun. Pushback makes doing what you want more difficult, and maybe keeps the game fresh by forcing you to either do the same sort of things in a different way or try something new.

That is totally different from saying there is one right way to play the game, you have to do everything and mix it up, or you WILL die. The latter concept means that eventually everyone will know the "right" way to play, we'll all play the same way, going through a cycle of behavioral changes like mice in a lab experiment, and living forever until we get so bored with the game we shut it down in disgust.

There should be HUNTERS, FARMERS, HUNTER/GATHERERS, and GATHERERS. The types don't mean something is wrong with the game as Kevin seems to imply, it means if I get bored with one play style I can change it up, face a new set of challenges, and maybe see something I didn't see before, rather than getting bored and just quitting for a while or forever. It's a good thing.

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