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Isosurface

Sanity paradox: rabbit trap

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Isosurface    58

Consider the following scenario:

1. Two players, one sane and one insane, have built a rabbit trap near a rabbit hole. A rabbit/beardling appears and runs into the trap. One of the players decides to go and collect the animal, what will he/she find?

2. If the rabbit/beardling gets killed by a tooth trap, what loot will it drop?

3. In RoG, if the rabbit starves to death in the trap when there are multiple sane and insane players around or away. What loot will you find in the trap?

Other causes of death: beefalos in heat, forest fire, Giants, Maxwell's trap.

 

My suggestion to this problem: we can take the average of the percentage of all player's sanity, if the average is sane (the population is sane) then the loots are sane. You get insane loots otherwise.

 

Similarly, the night hand paradox: Can a night hand appear and extinguish a camp fire while there are both sane and insane players around?

My suggestion is that night hand can only appear if the population is insane (again, based on the percentage average).

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luivul    40

I think that if a sane player kills a rabbit it should drop a morsel and the same with isanes ones.

I like the idea of the percentage.

A similar paradox happens with bunnymen and beardlords, which have different strenght

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Battal    9,883

The "hallucinations" are not actually hallucinations, they are creatures from another dimension that prey on the insane.  (This is canon).  For this reason, I bet that both the sane and insane will be able to see the hallucinations and be affected by them.

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Mobbstar    13,791

1) a jackalope of course (a beardling to insane ppl, rabbit to sane, just as if they were on the floor)

2/3) any passive properties of sanity-changing creatures should be based on the closest (even better: combat target) player, in my opinion.

 

It's a justified question, but as luivul stated, it goes even further. I hope I covered all aspects with statement 2/3.

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XirmiX    754

I think that if a sane player kills a rabbit it should drop a morsel and the same with isanes ones.

I like the idea of the percentage.

A similar paradox happens with bunnymen and beardlords, which have different strenght

He already got that, which is also what we thought as well! But, what he is talking about could change the way DST works or even make the idea of it being scrapped! Why? Because he's talking about traps! What if the rabbit/beardling or bunnyman/beardlord gets killed by something like a tooth trap or a different mob?! Game would probably crash! This is because NONE of the players would kill them, it's the game mechanics that would, which could not decide what to loot, as there would be sane and insane people around but none of them killing the rabbit/bearling or bunnyman/beardlord!

 

This one is tough to crack! Tougher than Woodie's werebeever mode seing other people in the dark, tougher than the Lureplants being used to get Glommer flower as woodie and tougher than adding the umbrells multiplayer use mechanic: this my friends is probably going to be the thing that'll crash your DST, as Devs have no time to fix or even THINK of what to do with this! I can't think of a solution. Can you?

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By the way, it would make more sense to just have the player who opens the trap decide whether it be rabbit or beardling. Also, if it's killed by a tooth trap, it should depend on who placed said tooth trap. If the rabbit starves to death in a trap, whoever opens the trap.

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XirmiX    754

The "hallucinations" are not actually hallucinations, they are creatures from another dimension that prey on the insane.  (This is canon).  For this reason, I bet that both the sane and insane will be able to see the hallucinations and be affected by them.

No, that would wreck the whole idea of being sane and insane; the sane doesn't have to suffer from the sights of the insane!

 

Now that I read what Mobbstar said, he kind of got me to think that may be this paradox of beardlings/rabbits or beardlords/bunnymen being killed by ingame mobs and traps has a solution; depending what kind of player the rabbit/beardling or bunnyman/beardlord gets killed the nearest (sane or insane) should drop the loot of.

 

For those who have no idea what I just said, here's an example:

Say two people are next to a rabbit that's about to be killed by a tooth trap. The sane person sees it as a rabbit, but the insane person sees it as a beardling. The sane person on the other hand is closer to the rabbit, ergo when the rabbit dies it loots a morsel (rabbit loot) and the insane person that is further away sees a beardling dropping a morsel. Mobbstar; I must say you made me freak out for nothing, but you solved the paradox, good job you :)

 

Not important: if a sane and an insane person sees a rabbit/beardling die on a tooth trap and mathematically the program sees them being at the EXACT same distance from the rabbit, then the program would just choose on random whether to loot rabbit loot or bearling loot. This is not important as like what are the chances and because it's quite obvious.

 

Derp

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Pyromailmann    2,991

Here's an idea:

Reg. Traps: The person to open the trap first lets the game decide which it is if the rabbit's dead.

Tooth Traps: Whoever placed it. 

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the truthseeker    1,560

I tried multiple times in Twitch to ask what happens when a person sees a beardling and they also are around sane people what is observed/collected, but they never read that question. 

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SillyWilson    287

The "hallucinations" are not actually hallucinations, they are creatures from another dimension that prey on the insane.  (This is canon).  For this reason, I bet that both the sane and insane will be able to see the hallucinations and be affected by them.

 

No, that would wreck the whole idea of being sane and insane; the sane doesn't have to suffer from the sights of the insane!

 

It would be weird for a sane guy to see an insane guy just randomly taking damage from what appears as nothing while the insane guy is being smacked around by a terrorbeak and the sane guy just stands there. Both being able to see it would be good, maybe the sane guy just seeing one appear when it is specifically targeting an insane player, then disappearing after it has killed them or has been killed by the insane, but not being able to interfere unless he too is insane Seeing and being near the hallucination attacking the insane could drain sanity. or maybe there could be an item that lets you see hallucination while sane (like moggles give night vision) but it drains sanity, and either does or doesn't let you hit them.

 

Here's an idea:

Reg. Traps: The person to open the trap first lets the game decide which it is if the rabbit's dead.

Tooth Traps: Whoever placed it. 

I like the regular traps idea but the tooth trap idea sounds complex. So like the server stores the info about the person who placed the tooth trap and the drops are based on that player's state of mind, or what it was logged as before they may have logged out for the day, or however it works? What if that player was banned from the server or never resurrected after becoming a ghost? Is it still their trap (drops associated with their last logged state of mind)? If they died/were banned while insane does the drop stay insane (beard-hair farm for a sane lazy larry who walks along and discovers ruins of old camp)? Seems complicated (sorry to poke holes in your plan :p feel free to protect your idea). I think if the rabbit or other creature is killed by anything but an insane player it should default to a regular rabbit's drops. Similarly if a beardling is picked up by a crazy guy and given to their friend mr sane, mr sane gets a rabbit, and vise versa if Mr.Sane gives a rabbit to crazy guy, crazy guy gets a beardling, so only the insane can get beard hair. They could still give you the beard hair after though. Sorta like how if you have a beardling in your inventory and you become sane its suddenly a rabbit.

 

I think that if a sane player kills a rabbit it should drop a morsel and the same with isanes ones.

I like the idea of the percentage.

A similar paradox happens with bunnymen and beardlords, which have different strenght

 Maybe the sane could see bunnymen and the insane could see beardlords. The sane player would have the bnunnyman do regular damage to him, but he would see the insane player getting more damage dealt to him because he's weaker/ his defense is lowered due to insanity. Vise versa, the insane one is getting reckt by the beardlord, but he sees that the sane one is fairing better because he is stronger because he is sane.

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the truthseeker    1,560

 Maybe the sane could see bunnymen and the insane could see beardlords. The sane player would have the bnunnyman do regular damage to him, but he would see the insane player getting more damage dealt to him because he's weaker/ his defense is lowered due to insanity. Vise versa, the insane one is getting reckt by the beardlord, but he sees that the sane one is fairing better because he is stronger because he is sane.

Somehow if they both attack it, what drops then? 

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SillyWilson    287

Somehow if they both attack it, what drops then? 

 Oh i see the point now  :livid: good question. Whoever dealt the killing blow I guess. If they both hit at the 'same time,' surely one of them had to have killed it ever so slightly faster. on the off chance that both hit it at the exact same time the drops could be chosen at random, 50-50 chance of either because both the sane and insane are involved, drops can be picked up by either. Or maybe because a sane character hit it at the same time as the insane character it could default to regular drops because the bunnyman was apart of reality while the beardlord was the insane man's halucination. That's my best solution :wilson_lightbulb:

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the truthseeker    1,560

 Oh i see the point now  :livid: good question. Whoever dealt the killing blow I guess. If they both hit at the 'same time,' surely one of them had to have killed it ever so slightly faster. on the off chance that both hit it at the exact same time the drops could be chosen at random, 50-50 chance of either because both the sane and insane are involved, drops can be picked up by either. Or maybe because a sane character hit it at the same time as the insane character it could default to regular drops because the bunnyman was apart of reality while the beardlord was the insane man's halucination. That's my best solution :wilson_lightbulb:

And this is why we need Quantum Physics to play DST boys and girls! :p

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SillyWilson    287

And this is why we need Quantum Physics to play DST boys and girls! :razz:

I don't even know how to physics, grade 10 science drained out my ears. All I know is that the physics class in my school launches potatoes once per class, and they did an experiment involving the police running over a stuffed animal. I took marine biology instead. Yay nudibranch!

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drdental    0

How about when a rabbit/bunnyman dies it drops a temporary loot item that looks different depending on if a player is sane/insane while it's on the ground. Then once it is picked up it 'really' becomes the item the player who picked it up saw.

This could cause more problems, though, if a player crosses the sanity threshold while the item is still on the ground. But I think that would be less weird than the game trying to decide what to drop depending on who was around/did the killing.

The other problem I can think of would be trying to incorporate drop chances of different items, but I suspect that would be relatively easy to deal with.

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rezecib    3,142

There are many complicated solutions to this, but I think a simple one is probably the way to go, both in terms of player readability and ease of coding.

 

If it dies from a player attack: use the sanity of the player who deals the killing blow (edit: it's actually impossible for two players to hit simultaneously unless they specifically code in a lag period to catch close-to-simultaneous attacks. Even if they're "technically simultaneous", one will be processed first.).

 

If it dies in a trap, use the sanity of the player who picks it up.

 

If it dies from other sources of damage, use the nearest player's sanity.

 

I think that covers everything...

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Isosurface    58

The bunnymen/beardlords paradox:

Player A (sane) has an army of bunnymen fighting Player B's (insane) army of beardlords. From B's perspective, 4 beardlords (B1, B2, B3 and B4) hitting a full health beardlord (A1) at about the same time will kill it before it has the chance to flee, but from A's perspective, the bunnyman (A1) will survive 4 bunnyman-hits (B1, B2, B3 and B4) and flee the battle.

What will a neutral observer see (C, sanity state unknown), a fleeing bunnyman or a dead beardlord?

 

For people who suggest distance-based or time-based mechanism, don't ignore the probability of same-distance/same-time. Or the game may crash spectacularly when it happens.

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the truthseeker    1,560

The bunnymen/beardlords paradox:

Player A (sane) has an army of bunnymen fighting Player B's (insane) army of beardlords. From B's perspective, 4 beardlords (B1, B2, B3 and B4) hitting a full health beardlord (A1) at about the same time will kill it before it has the chance to flee, but from A's perspective, the bunnyman (A1) will survive 4 bunnyman-hits (B1, B2, B3 and B4) and flee the battle.

What will a neutral observer see (C, sanity state unknown), a fleeing bunnyman or a dead beardlord?

 

For people who suggest distance-based or time-based mechanism, don't ignore the probability of same-distance/same-time. Or the game may crash spectacularly when it happens.

From Quantum Physics to General Relativity. Why wasn't science this fun in school? 

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rezecib    3,142

The bunnymen/beardlords paradox:

Player A (sane) has an army of bunnymen fighting Player B's (insane) army of beardlords. From B's perspective, 4 beardlords (B1, B2, B3 and B4) hitting a full health beardlord (A1) at about the same time will kill it before it has the chance to flee, but from A's perspective, the bunnyman (A1) will survive 4 bunnyman-hits (B1, B2, B3 and B4) and flee the battle.

What will a neutral observer see (C, sanity state unknown), a fleeing bunnyman or a dead beardlord?

 

For people who suggest distance-based or time-based mechanism, don't ignore the probability of same-distance/same-time. Or the game may crash spectacularly when it happens.

 

Hmm, well the bunnymen/beardlord situation is much trickier than the rabbit/beardling one.

 

I think probably the only elegant solutions are:

 

1) Merge the statistics of the two; bunnymen and beardlords are functionally the same, but have drops determined by sanity of the closest player (same-distance is really not a problem. Worst case, they can add a random selection from among equal closest members, but usually the way you'd do this is put the players in a priority queue or other sorted list based on distance, then select the top one, which performs the randomization on its own)

2) Make the bunnymen/beardlord differences in stats only apply relative to players: that is, a bunnyman normally does 40 damage with an attack period of 3s, while a beardlord does 60 damage with an attack period of 1s. Bunnymen/beardlords attacking an insane player would do 1.5x damage, but attacking a sane player do normal (40) damage. Similarly, the attack period is reduced when attacking an insane player.

 

Personally I prefer (2) because it conserves the difference between them relative to players, while allowing them to still have easily-determined interactions with non-players (always do bunnyman damage/attack time).

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XirmiX    754

Somehow if they both attack it, what drops then?

It all depends on why kills it not who attacks it. Two players can't kill one thing, but lower its health.

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SillyWilson    287

The bunnymen/beardlords paradox:

Player A (sane) has an army of bunnymen fighting Player B's (insane) army of beardlords. From B's perspective, 4 beardlords (B1, B2, B3 and B4) hitting a full health beardlord (A1) at about the same time will kill it before it has the chance to flee, but from A's perspective, the bunnyman (A1) will survive 4 bunnyman-hits (B1, B2, B3 and B4) and flee the battle.

What will a neutral observer see (C, sanity state unknown), a fleeing bunnyman or a dead beardlord?

 

For people who suggest distance-based or time-based mechanism, don't ignore the probability of same-distance/same-time. Or the game may crash spectacularly when it happens.

 I think players A, B and C should all see the same thing; Player B consistently having an army of Beardlords and Player A consistently having an army of Bunnymen. Sane player A would see neutral Bunnymen and the ones he recruited as Bunnymen, but the ones the insane Player B recruited become and stay Beardlords for the duration of their recruitment because they are under the influence of player B's insanity, and vice versa. Player B sees neutral Beardlords and the ones he recruited as Beardlords, but because Player A is sane the 'Beardlords' Player B sees become Bunnymen the moment they're recruited by Player A, standing out like white knights amongst the Beardlords in player B's perspective. Players A, B and C would see A's army of Bunnymen get slaughtered by B's army of Beardlords. The Bunnymen and Beardlords would keep their respective damage, attack period, drops and sanity/insanity auras.  :geek:

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Warewolves    67

From what I think, the solution is very simple. Base it on the closest player. If they are equally close, the one with the lowest sanity decides the drop.

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Palpetinus    839

Should be based on whoever placed the trap or dealt the killing blow. If they die by third party entities, like hounds, it should drop as if it was a normal jackalope.

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MuzluSut    65

I think that if a sane player kills a rabbit it should drop a morsel and the same with isanes ones.

I like the idea of the percentage.

A similar paradox happens with bunnymen and beardlords, which have different strenght

 

Makes sense..

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