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Bahger

I like it, I admire it, but it is much too frustrating

Is the balance between accomplishment and frustration right yet?  

146 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like this game?

  2. 2. Do you think it is too hard to "win"?

  3. 3. If your answer to the above was "Yes", rate your level of satisfaction vs frustration

    • I am completely satisfied with the gameplay balance
    • I am basically satisfied but feel it needs tweaking in favor of the player
    • It is way too difficult to merit a long-term commitment unless it gets fixed


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I started this thread because I was frustrated with the game's uncompromising difficulty but even I would not advocate a save option. Whether you intend to use it or not, it's very existence influences the way you play and this game must be played on a one mistake and you're out basis. As I get better at it I am no longer even advocating intel re. the location of the elevator. I just wish it were possible for someone with my relatively meagre talent and available time to get past three consecutive missions; I have abandoned all hope of ever getting to the end.

 

Easier game mode incoming. Just hang on for Tuesday.

 

As for the rest of it, it's been written and stated on recent stream broadcasts by the developers, that the idea of one mistake being huge has been an important concept for development of the game from the early stages. If you can't understand why a manual save/load feature hasn't been included and how that would influence the way you play, then I can't really help. Just don't hold your breath unless you expect Klei to rebuild certain core mechanics, when they feel like those are in a good position now.

 

Basically, no manual save/load is a design decision. Whether or not everybody likes it (I think enough enjoy or understand it to say it fits), Klei is clearly standing firm on it. Looking at it as a missing feature that should be there because most modern games have it is incorrect, since it clashes with what the developers want to achieve. I doubt they expect everybody to like that choice, but you're not being forced to buy the game or play it either.

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Spinecone    1

I started this thread because I was frustrated with the game's uncompromising difficulty but even I would not advocate a save option. Whether you intend to use it or not, it's very existence influences the way you play and this game must be played on a one mistake and you're out basis. As I get better at it I am no longer even advocating intel re. the location of the elevator. I just wish it were possible for someone with my relatively meagre talent and available time to get past three consecutive missions; I have abandoned all hope of ever getting to the end.

 

If you can't look at an option and just say "This doesn't fit how I want to play the game, and as such, I won't use it" then with all due respect, you must have a nightmare walking past the chocolate shelf at the supermarket...

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Spinecone    1

Easier game mode incoming. Just hang on for Tuesday.

 

As for the rest of it, it's been written and stated on recent stream broadcasts by the developers, that the idea of one mistake being huge has been an important concept for development of the game from the early stages. If you can't understand why a manual save/load feature hasn't been included and how that would influence the way you play, then I can't really help. Just don't hold your breath unless you expect Klei to rebuild certain core mechanics, when they feel like those are in a good position now.

 

Basically, no manual save/load is a design decision. Whether or not everybody likes it (I think enough enjoy or understand it to say it fits), Klei is clearly standing firm on it. Looking at it as a missing feature that should be there because most modern games have it is incorrect, since it clashes with what the developers want to achieve. I doubt they expect everybody to like that choice, but you're not being forced to buy the game or play it either.

 

No, I'm sorry, I don't think that's gonna wash. It's just laziness because, as I've mentioned so, so, so many damn times, a single misstep can still have as big an impact as you want. I don't understand why you think that giving people an option to play in a way that's not your preferred playstyle means you can't play it your way anymore?

 

Just a quick disclaimer, despite my "Laziness" comment, I love this game, and am drafting a full post on it in the feedback area.

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the truthseeker    1,560

There is a manual save and load. When you choose to quit the mission and resume it. Welcome to permadeath again where the idea is a single error can kill you, and you have to play as cautiously as your character should be. 

 

if not liked, that's a player call, and I respoect those who do not.

 

Now you die to a game glitch (*glares at instant firing no overwatch*), that's a whole other thing and I encourage console cheating to restore ya! 

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Bahger    7

Easier game mode incoming. Just hang on for Tuesday.

 

As for the rest of it, it's been written and stated on recent stream broadcasts by the developers, that the idea of one mistake being huge has been an important concept for development of the game from the early stages. If you can't understand why a manual save/load feature hasn't been included and how that would influence the way you play, then I can't really help. Just don't hold your breath unless you expect Klei to rebuild certain core mechanics, when they feel like those are in a good position now.

 

Basically, no manual save/load is a design decision. Whether or not everybody likes it (I think enough enjoy or understand it to say it fits), Klei is clearly standing firm on it. Looking at it as a missing feature that should be there because most modern games have it is incorrect, since it clashes with what the developers want to achieve. I doubt they expect everybody to like that choice, but you're not being forced to buy the game or play it either.

I could not have put this better myself and again I emphasize, I am having a hard time advancing beyond the third mission.  Those who claim that a save feature can be justified because it can be ignored are advancing a completely wrongheaded argument, in my opinion.  This is a very well-designed game whether you value the level of difficulty or not and as Phenom says, the absence of a save feature is a design decision.  To include one now would imply that the designers lacked faith in the integrity of their own design concept, and nobody wants to play an otherwise worthwhile game that has had such a core design compromise inflicted on it through pressure from one section of its player base.  And I have never, ever, been able to give the "well you can just ignore it" argument any credence whatsoever (it always crops up when people complain about games with autosaves but no quicksaves).  If I got in a really tight spot in Invisible Inc (which has happened more often than I care to admit) I would rather be faced with a decision between trying to wriggle my way out (which is often possible once you think hard enough about your options) and admitting defeat.  If a save were available, then no matter how determined I might be not to use it, I'd be sitting there wondering if the experience of the game and the outcome of the situation on a second attempt, might have been more enjoyable.  This kind of speculation, even if it is not followed through, is unfair to the devs, who have built a very good game around a live-or-die mechanic.  If they were to compromise it with a save feature, no matter how convenient it might be to certain players including myself, it would be a gesture of bad faith and of a lack of confidence in the game's basic DNA.  The devs mustn't do it and I am confident that they will not.

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No, I'm sorry, I don't think that's gonna wash. It's just laziness because, as I've mentioned so, so, so many damn times, a single misstep can still have as big an impact as you want. I don't understand why you think that giving people an option to play in a way that's not your preferred playstyle means you can't play it your way anymore?

 

Just a quick disclaimer, despite my "Laziness" comment, I love this game, and am drafting a full post on it in the feedback area.

 

I suggest asking the devs directly on the next stream why there is no manual save/load. Or maybe even send an email asking what their design philosophy is for Invisible, Inc. That's your best chance at understanding exactly why it's not in game, and when they explain that they won't do it you can make peace with it. If they can't convince you, nobody will be able to.

 

@Truthseeker,

 

I'm pretty sure the game saves after every action. I've tried reloading after getting my agent shot on my own turn, only to start again in the same position. I think Klei has done pretty well ensuring that, outside of manual save back-ups, there's no reloading from a bad situation. You must work your way out, as intended by design.

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obliviondoll    40

The idea of manual saving and loading being a "feature" and not a design decision makes sense within the context of many games.

 

For a game with "hardcore" and "permadeath" in the core design philosophy, that isn't the case.

 

Manual saving, IN THIS CASE, is a design decision. And the devs, IN THIS CASE, have made the decision NOT to include it. Most importantly of all though, IN THIS CASE, as evidenced by the majority of people discussing the topic, it was the right choice.

 

If - and it's a very big "if" - they were to consider this as a possibility, I would want to see it ONLY as a "casual save mode" option which can be turned on. It should be an option that is DISABLED by default, and preferably should only be available on easy mode. If they add any kind of leaderboards, enabling the option of manual saves should prevent your score from being uploaded, because you probably cheated by save-scumming. And yes, for the context of this game, save-scumming IS CHEATING.

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obliviondoll    40

I've not seen "Rogue-Like" anywhere but on these forums

 

I initially skimmed over this post and wasn't going to bother, but I just had a quick look for sources on this. Didn't take long. Maybe 5 minutes, inlcuding the time I spent ordering pizza.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/8834/Sneaking-Into-Invisible-Inc-Early-Access.html

"there are definitely some roguelike elements to Invisible, Inc."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible,_Inc.

"incorporating elements of roguelike gameplay"

 

And lastly, A QUOTE FROM ONE OF THE DEVS on their recent Reddit AMA:

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2e00uc/we_are_klei_entertainment_creators_of_dont_starve/

"You could say the game is something of a rogu-trapdoor opens and I fall down into a pit of angry Nethack players"

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Palpetinus    839

Atleast it's a semi-proper roguelike. If there were manual saves, that would utterly wreck the very core of this game.

 

In fact, I expected people to understand that. I hoped people would see that this is a roguelike and not like, I dunno, Skyrim or some other casual crap. I expected nobody to even mention something so absurd.

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Palpetinus    839

To those who really, really, really need manual saves though, tab out, go to the savegame folder (that's Documents/Klei/Invisinc, or something similar to that) and simply back up the savefile. To "load", quit the game, just rename the copied file to what it's supposed to be and rename the new one. Don't delete the new one, you never know when you end up breaking something and it's better to have atleast some save than none at all.

 

There you go, it would kinda break what Klei intended to do with the game but hey, if a group of people decides to play soccer with hands, who's gonna stop them?

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Wenderlly    64

Atleast it's a semi-proper roguelike. If there were manual saves, that would utterly wreck the very core of this game.

 

In fact, I expected people to understand that. I hoped people would see that this is a roguelike and not like, I dunno, Skyrim or some other casual crap. I expected nobody to even mention something so absurd.

Literally me.

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Mephy    1

In my opinion it is a bad idea to add saves. There are many things you need to learn about this game (items, chars, strats etc.). And the best way to learn them is by doing mistakes and/or permadeath. If the game has saves many people will reload quickly if something goes wrong and then they won't even try to make the best of it. I did so many mistakes during my first runs and later i did some endless runs. After i tried different items, chars and incognita progarms i played a story mode run and it was pure fun. There were 2 situations many would consider as impossibel, but the most important thing i learned was to be prepared for every situation (cloak, gun, emp) and i had a lot of fun to solves these problems.

 

Thtas why i think saves are contraproductive and the difficulty of the game is great.


In my opinion it is a bad idea to add saves. There are many things you need to learn about this game (items, chars, strats etc.). And the best way to learn them is by doing mistakes and/or permadeath. If the game has saves many people will reload quickly if something goes wrong and then they won't even try to make the best of it. I did so many mistakes during my first runs and later i did some endless runs. After i tried different items, chars and incognita progarms i played a story mode run and it was pure fun. There were 2 situations many would consider as impossibel, but the most important thing i learned was to be prepared for every situation (cloak, gun, emp) and i had a lot of fun to solves these problems.

 

Thas why i think saves are contraproductive and the difficulty of the game is great.

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the truthseeker    1,560

To those who really, really, really need manual saves though, tab out, go to the savegame folder (that's Documents/Klei/Invisinc, or something similar to that) and simply back up the savefile. To "load", quit the game, just rename the copied file to what it's supposed to be and rename the new one. Don't delete the new one, you never know when you end up breaking something and it's better to have atleast some save than none at all.

 

There you go, it would kinda break what Klei intended to do with the game but hey, if a group of people decides to play soccer with hands, who's gonna stop them?

But that's really...haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard  to keep doing!!!!!!!!

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Bahger    7

Well, I have now won three consecutive missions and am heading into my fourth with a three-agent team and quite a few gadgets.  However, I have no power and no ability to confront armored guards.  I am obviously learning the game but I must try and get more money and spend it on stuff that I anticipate I'll need in the Very Guarded and heavily Guarded missions.  At the moment I am spending too much time in front of a hacked Nanofab with not enough money to buy anything but an extra storage slot.

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Well, I have now won three consecutive missions and am heading into my fourth with a three-agent team and quite a few gadgets.  However, I have no power and no ability to confront armored guards.  I am obviously learning the game but I must try and get more money and spend it on stuff that I anticipate I'll need in the Very Guarded and heavily Guarded missions.  At the moment I am spending too much time in front of a hacked Nanofab with not enough money to buy anything but an extra storage slot.

 

Looks like you won't need that extra difficulty mode after all. :-)

 

I find Shalem 11 to be a good pick for handling these situations. Starting with a method of handling armoured unit without relying on time, credits or luck is invaluable, imo.

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JamesFactory    26

Well, I have now won three consecutive missions and am heading into my fourth with a three-agent team and quite a few gadgets.  However, I have no power and no ability to confront armored guards.  I am obviously learning the game but I must try and get more money and spend it on stuff that I anticipate I'll need in the Very Guarded and heavily Guarded missions.  At the moment I am spending too much time in front of a hacked Nanofab with not enough money to buy anything but an extra storage slot.

 I find armored guards to be completely avoidable through tactics, you might not be able to get the extra money or passkeys etc from them, but you can definitely avoid most bad situations (though this does require some game knowledge and proper planning/execution). Drones do complicate missions a bit though, and have less ways of being distracted, especially if nulls are involved.

You might be better served by testing stealth and distractions in the long term, figuring out how to distract guards through running, walking through their noticed areas, opening doors etc. than relying on having armor piercing, though armor piercing is always nice to have, and is usually my 3rd priority in terms of what I spend my money on.

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