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Bahger

I like it, I admire it, but it is much too frustrating

Is the balance between accomplishment and frustration right yet?  

146 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like this game?

  2. 2. Do you think it is too hard to "win"?

  3. 3. If your answer to the above was "Yes", rate your level of satisfaction vs frustration

    • I am completely satisfied with the gameplay balance
    • I am basically satisfied but feel it needs tweaking in favor of the player
    • It is way too difficult to merit a long-term commitment unless it gets fixed


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obliviondoll    40

If you can't get to anything, that's a shame. Sometimes, it happens. You get missions where you just have to bail. I've had them before. I've had missions where I've come away with only a handful of extra credits from looting one downed guard, and I left with nothing more.

 

And if you had no option to retreat, then yeah, sometimes you're backed into a corner. In that situation, it sounds like you had Deckard/Internationale, because Shalem gives you a way to deal with armour and Banks lets you bypass the security doors.

 

I've had a game where I stepped out of the spawn room and had 3 null drones drive in around me. That taught me to not rush into the first room even when it looks clear. It also taught me that null drones are evil.

 

Sometimes, one tiny mistake will kill you. Sometimes, you won't have the resources necessary to deal with a particular enemy the game throws at you. These things are going to happen occasionally.

 

Keep in mind that this is still early access, and that many things will be changing. Some of the "unbeatable" scenarios are ones which you COULD beat with a different team structure, or with more preparation (which will probably be an option in future updates).

 

In part, you need to keep in mind that this game is a roguelike, and there is the expectation that you're going to lose a lot before you win. And in part, you need to keep in mind that it's not finished, and sometimes you're going to lose because of something that's NOT intended as part of the game.

 

Tonight, I made it to the final mission for my second time. I had a full team of 4 agents, all relatively well-equipped, considering the fact that I hadn't seen the option for a single Nanofab mission in my entire playthrough. I was stuck relying on Shalem's rifle as my only armour piercing weapon. And he got killed by a glitchy non-overwatch shot from a guard who just ran around the corner and instakilled him with no reaction chance. There was an armoured guard I needed to get rid of at the time, and I ended up having to leave Shalem behind and sacrifice Internationale in order to let Banks reach Shalem's rifle and keep Deckard alive.

 

Even though I got through that particular encounter, it killed off two agents I couldn't afford to lose so early in the mission, and I ended up failing because too many guards showed up and I didn't have enough of my own people to handle the situation. Even though it was a glitch, I pressed on to see how far I could get. I didn't make it, but I got a lot closer than I thought I was going to at the point where I was cheated out of two agents.

 

At the moment, glitches happen. I haven't reported this incident because I've seen official "we know what causes this and are working on it" posts from the devs already. If you're dealing with a legitimately unfair situation on your game where the map generation has set you up to fail, report it. post images and if possible, relevant game data.

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Rafti    11

Sorry, but that is frustrating. I really like the concept of the game but I miss a real sense of progress and accomplishment. And please don't say I just haven't figured out the intricacies of the tactical game mechanics yet, because that really isn't the point I am trying to make, which is that the luck factor outweighs the tactical factor by too far at the moment. The game too often presents me with situations which either leave me no options at all or only options which make things worse regardless of my choice. So there is not really a choice or tactics involved.

 

Hi !

 

I understand your point but I have yet to disagree.

Due to its early stage, the game doesn't do a good job yet at explaining its basic mechanics, and as it will get better in future builds, i'll try to help you for now.

 

To improve your gameplay you have to understand that using your tazzer/disruptor should be done in last resort, or late in the mission when you have a better control/knowledge of the map, or if you can make sure you have enough ressources to keep the guard pinned long enough(a 3 agents team in which 1 agent will drag the body, or drugs).

 

So to go through missions you have to sneak using covers. Covers are way stronger than you would initially think, they protect you from being seen at a 180° angle. Meaning that when you take cover, you can draw an imaginary line from the edge of the tile your standing on (where the shield symbol is displayed) that you extend to the walls of the room. As long as no guard crosses that line, there is no way you can be seen from any angle.

 

 

For example in the image below, you are totally safe unless a guards crosses the line I've drawn.

 

http://imgur.com/WHTHZAD

 

This other example is even better, as long I Internationale stands there, she can only be seen if a guard stands on one of the red tiles

 

http://imgur.com/U0jdFtp

 

 

Once you understand the cover system, you can use AP to display the trajectory of guards and plan your next move acordingly. You will also get better at the game, make less mistake, and the timer will be less of an issue to the point where it will be merely an annoyance. Once you start having more success on your early missions, you will have more ressources and it will snowball into more success !

 

As for the RNG, yes the game can throw you terrible layouts but that's what make the game exciting ! And as you've learned the hard way, you should never assume that the second room is safe

 

I hope this will help you having a more enjoyable experience on this game because once you start having some success it is extremely satisfying ! Fell free to ask if I can be of any help on other mechanics !

 

Cheers !

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shirt145    0

I completely agree that while it's a fun concept, the game is way too unbalanced as it is. I'm a pretty experienced strategy gamer, at the 7 hour mark, and I still have yet to complete a single mission with both agents intact. Maybe I've just been terribly unlucky, or I don't really "get" the game, but it's incredibly frustrating. Here are my impressions so far:

 

The Good:

- Concept - I like the peeking, spying, and slinking around

- Art - solid and edgy, especially the animated character portraits 

- Music - Atmospheric and tense but not too intense

- Colorblind options - Thoughtful and fun to play with even if you're not colorblind

 

The Bad: 

- Some spelling and formatting errors, which I'll detail in a separate post 

 

The Ugly:

- I HATE the idea that agents of a supposedly advanced spy agency are somehow dropped in the middle of a room with no floor plan of the building or any idea how to get out. How did they get there in the first place? This is a ridiculous flaw in logic. They should, at the very least, have an idea of what area the elevator is in. 

- This same international spy agency, which is flying agents all over the world, somehow cannot afford to supply agents with even basic weapons or ammunition, and forces them to buy from their enemies? That seems like a great strategy. 

- The learning curve is too steep. There should at least be one or two "less guarded" missions to get players' feet wet and learn how guards move, etc. The tutorial is not enough. I feel like I was thrown to the wolves. 

- The alarm level goes up too quickly. I get that it's a kind of timer for the mission, but what is the justification for it going up by simply being in the building unnoticed? I think it shouldn't start going up until you are seen/heard or stun a guard.

 

Overall I still feel it could be a really fun game, but it's a chore to play at the moment. Maybe the option of restarting the same mission with the same layout would help.

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JamesFactory    26

There's no option in the vote for "I am basically satisfied but feel it needs tweaking in favor of the *Enemies*"

I would have checked that box had it existed.

Please don't grab your pitchforks guys, but I'm not really scratching my head anymore, so I think there needs to be an option for more difficulty.

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stealthnut    2

I love the game, even in its current state(Alpha, but very enjoyable and playable). I am fine with the difficulty it provides, the randomness of the levels, items, permadeath, the alarm timer etc,  it keeps things fresh. And that comes from a person who normally hates timed gameplay elements. But here, it fits like a glove. Without the alarm timer, there would be a lot less tension. And sometimes things go wrong, and you just have to go for the elevator, without looting the map clean.

 

What i hope for the beta and the release version: more characters, a longer story mode, more items, more corporations, more scenarios, keep the difficulty(maybe implement an easy mode for some people) but keep the gameplay intact. 

 

Invisible inc. kinda hit me hard, really enjoying this gem.

 

Ps: Maybe add some kind of Ghosting Bonus(1000$) for not hurting any guard, just for some extra challenge for the stealth nuts ;)

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FozNertep    0

Once you understand the cover system, you can use AP to display the trajectory of guards and plan your next move acordingly. You will also get better at the game, make less mistake, and the timer will be less of an issue to the point where it will be merely an annoyance. Once you start having more success on your early missions, you will have more ressources and it will snowball into more success !

 

There is my point, exactly: I think there are too many occasions where you lose without making a mistake - and that causes frustration. I know about cover mechanics, the pitfalls of taking out guards, how armour works, etc. You can only really make a mistake if you have an alternative option to choose, and often, there simply is none. Like I wasn't running blindly into the room with the drones. I already was in this (empty) room and on the next turn, two drones and one guard entered it from two sides and there had been no "patrolling" indicators (the yellow/red arrows).

 

Unfortunately, I keep forgetting about making screenshots, but the reason why I bring those issues up is really to give some feedback for a work in progress. After all, I want this game to be as good as possible, or I wouldn't have spent the money on it.

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Palpetinus    839

There is my point, exactly: I think there are too many occasions where you lose without making a mistake - and that causes frustration. I know about cover mechanics, the pitfalls of taking out guards, how armour works, etc. You can only really make a mistake if you have an alternative option to choose, and often, there simply is none. Like I wasn't running blindly into the room with the drones. I already was in this (empty) room and on the next turn, two drones and one guard entered it from two sides and there had been no "patrolling" indicators (the yellow/red arrows).

 

Unfortunately, I keep forgetting about making screenshots, but the reason why I bring those issues up is really to give some feedback for a work in progress. After all, I want this game to be as good as possible, or I wouldn't have spent the money on it.

 

So far I've never lost by something "random".

I don't stay in a room unless I know what's in the rooms next to it. That also has something to do with skill and wits.

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HolyDeath    50

There are situations where your options are limited and it's not always the player's fault, but randomness (I mean shops mostly, but the way levels are generated can also fall into this). I still like the randomness though, as it makes each mission and each playthrough unique, so here is something for something.

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Palpetinus    839

There are situations where your options are limited and it's not always the player's fault, but randomness (I mean shops mostly, but the way levels are generated can also fall into this). I still like the randomness though, as it makes each mission and each playthrough unique, so here is something for something.

 

Sure, generation is random, but it's our job to make something good out of what we randomly get.

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This game is absolutely brutal. The best I EVER did, was get to mission #5.

 

And you know what? I was so close to pulling it off without any hitch. (Extraction mission, was at Alarm lvl 3, had delt with 3 guards and had them down good for many rounds) and then, in ONE enemy turn, I got fucked by a guard (who came out of no where, spawned somewhere but I had got no info, didn't even know there was a door where he came out of!) who saw all my agents, and downed one on the same turn without me even getting a chance for cover. He then called a 2 extra guards nearby on me, and another 2 nearby finally woke up, lost my second agent, I had my 3rd running around trying to get back to them to use my 2 Medkits, but by the time I was able to get back to them and all the rest of the guards had FINALLY left, the alert level was 6, and I actually managed to get both guards back up, and I was literally about to get away, and again, another guard popped into the room and I got dogpiled again and finally died. It was insane, like, wtf could I not get a fkin break?

 

Balance complaints-

 

Dekard and Shalam are both non-competative, Internationale and Banks (god especially Banks) are just way, way better.

 

Power Drip and Lockpick suck compared to Fusion and Parasite. Fusion just hands down is better than Power Drip, Lockpick at least has the advantage over Parasite in that if you need to crack stuff fast, it can do that (although you can always get Dagger).

 

Gameplay complaints-

 

The Taser's cooldown is too long. There are countless times I got dogpiled by guards because my tasers were on cooldown and there were too many too fast, this is especially true given how quickly guards get back up. (2 turn cooldown would be much better)

 

Guards wakeup cooldown is too short. Being able to pin them barely solves anything, keeping guards down long enough to get away/do something is an epic juggling act. This is why Banks is so OP, because she can put down 1 guard for much longer due to her item.

 

The only way to divert guards is through Ping or getting seen/***** with a door. It wouldn't be so bad if Ping's cooldown wasn't so bad, but god once you have 4 guards prowling around your agents it's impossible to clear a mission without some major luck.

 

Turrets are fairly useless when you hack them. It takes 2 turns just to get them to shoot something, and there have been plenty of times when I needed to kill a guard but because of wierd positioning it wouldn't shoot back. Turrets should immediately kill guards when you turn them on.

 

Guards who can shoot your agents on the same enemy turn they spot your agents need to be removed, or only spawn at Alarm level 5 or 6. They are simply unfair.

 

Minor pet peeves-

 

The alarm level begins at 1 instead of 0, I would like that extra turn please. Also, mission objectives either need to be displayed on the map, or we should get double the time before the security cameras come up, because I am sick of getting screwed by maps getting generated with false leads that take me 2 Alarm levels to find the elevator or vault room.

 

Agents can't move through other agents spaces. Plenty of times I have fked myself for a turn because I moved an agent to a door and only realized after that said agent was out of movement and I couldn't get a second agent through the same door.

 

Equipment from stores is too limited in choice. Frankly, you should be able to buy at least basic equipment inbetween missions. Terminals should have reduced price items. Also, there should be a damned confirm option to sell stuff, because I screwed myself once by accidentally clicking something I just bought (and it was expensive)

 

Ammo shouldn't take a slot. The fact that it does makes ranged weapons suck compared to upgraded tasers.

 

Anarchy lvl2 is lame, I never use the ability because any guard I steal from I take down. Rarely do guards have patrol patterns easy enough to circumvent to allow them to stay where they are.

 

A lot of times when I peek into rooms, I can see that the floor is being watched by a camera, but I can't actually see the camera. That's bogus.

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FateINV    1

Anarchy 2 is pretty lame until you find a paralyzer. Weaker than bank's but still good.

When you suspect a camera but cannot see it, either use internationale ability or take a risk and open the door while standing to the side. This may allow you to see more of the room. The risk is if it is a guard instead, you will alert him.

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obliviondoll    40

There is my point, exactly: I think there are too many occasions where you lose without making a mistake - and that causes frustration. I know about cover mechanics, the pitfalls of taking out guards, how armour works, etc. You can only really make a mistake if you have an alternative option to choose, and often, there simply is none. Like I wasn't running blindly into the room with the drones. I already was in this (empty) room and on the next turn, two drones and one guard entered it from two sides and there had been no "patrolling" indicators (the yellow/red arrows).

 

Unfortunately, I keep forgetting about making screenshots, but the reason why I bring those issues up is really to give some feedback for a work in progress. After all, I want this game to be as good as possible, or I wouldn't have spent the money on it.

 

In the first turn, you are ALWAYS blind to guard movements. Many players have requested guard movement on "turn 0" to alleviate this problem. It seems like a good solution to this problem. There is still the "problem" that agents with AP-recovering tools or high stealth level can move further than your ability to hear guard patrols, but this isn't a mistake with the game, it's an encouragement to be cautious in new areas.

 

If you're moving a long way into an area you don't have clear vision over (in all directions), EXPECT to be ambushed. If possible, put your agents in cover, or in positions the enemy is unlikely to look for them.

 

You're supposed to stealth in this game, not kill or KO every single guard. How hard is that to understand?

 

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/39858-tutorial-design-sneaking-instead-of-disrupting/

 

That's how.

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HolyDeath    50

Sure, generation is random, but it's our job to make something good out of what we randomly get.

Yes. My point is there are situations where it's not entirely the player's fault when he's faced with an impossible situation due to randomness. Situations that - with different tools - could've been passable should the game has had provided them.

 

Anarchy 2 is pretty lame until you find a paralyzer. Weaker than bank's but still good.

Anarchy 2 is great for stealing items without KOing the guards. I used it primarily for gaining passcards needed to open security doors, but you can also steal money and items if guard has them (some of them do).

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You're supposed to stealth in this game, not kill or KO every single guard. How hard is that to understand?

 

How are you suppose to do that when the game literally forces you to rush through rooms as fast as possible so that taking advantage of stealth is so hard, and necessitates KOing guards because they are watching the door you need to get through because the level lay out often provides such limited corridors to the elevator and objective?

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Palpetinus    839

How are you suppose to do that when the game literally forces you to rush through rooms as fast as possible so that taking advantage of stealth is so hard, and necessitates KOing guards because they are watching the door you need to get through because the level lay out often provides such limited corridors to the elevator and objective?

 

I said "not KO every single guard".

Luring and KOing a guard that's at a choking point is totally fine, and not even always. When I encounter such a situation I cloak by with Deckard to check what's on the other side. If it's only a dead end or has an alternative route, I can then take different actions. The game gives you many options, you all just decide to walk in and KO everyone.

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HolyDeath    50

How are you suppose to do that when the game literally forces you to rush through rooms as fast as possible so that taking advantage of stealth is so hard, and necessitates KOing guards because they are watching the door you need to get through because the level lay out often provides such limited corridors to the elevator and objective?

 

You don't have to rush rooms. I've found it pays off more to sacrifice a turn or two to position yourself in a way that will make the guard not notice you and spare yourself the trouble of KOing him and either having that guard run around in search for you or keeping one agent just to pin a single guard down.

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obliviondoll    40

How are you suppose to do that when the game literally forces you to rush through rooms as fast as possible so that taking advantage of stealth is so hard, and necessitates KOing guards because they are watching the door you need to get through because the level lay out often provides such limited corridors to the elevator and objective?

 

It certainly DOESN'T force you to "rush through rooms as fast as possible".

 

It ENCOURAGES you to move as fast as is PRACTICAL. There are plenty of times where you're better off NOT rushing, spending a turn waiting for an out-of-place agent to move into position while another agent spends 0AP sitting in a corner or beside a door.

 

When there's a single guarded room you have to pass through, sometimes there will be an opening you can see every few turns which gives you the opportunity to slip into a covered position inside the room, then next turn (or maybe the turn after) make it to a different door and into the next room.

 

Or maybe if you don't have visibility on the room you'll want to move up, peek into the room, then fall back with a better idea of what you're getting into. If you're rushing, you'll run into the room, knock out a guard or two, move into the next room leaving them with 2 turn KO timers, and do the same in the next room. You'll have 2 - 4 guards who are waking up over the next couple of turns after you move on, all of whom will be actively searching for you for the rest of the mission, while I take 3 or 4 turns longer to cross those rooms, but have NO extra alerted guards.

 

Sometimes, yes, taking a guard down is necessary. And sometimes, without being necessary, it's still the best option. But it shouldn't be the go-to solution to every problem all the time.

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ildarz    9

How are you suppose to do that when the game literally forces you to rush through rooms as fast as possible so that taking advantage of stealth is so hard, and necessitates KOing guards because they are watching the door you need to get through because the level lay out often provides such limited corridors to the elevator and objective?

 

Even if guard watched the door, you usually don't need to KO him. Just take guard's attention (open the door or run, depends on exact situation), move to cover, wait when guard moves to investigate, and sneak around. Particularly useful if guard is armored and you don't have AP weapons. After guard investigates, it returns on his spot and stay unalerted (of course if he don't actually see your agents). Even better, if guard is "stationary", now he will look in opposite direction (usually on the wall). :)

 

In my opinion, the game is pretty well balanced on early levels and too easy on later stages. When you have three upgraded agents, poor guards don't have any chances because mission difficulty scales much less than power of agents. I suppose there can be some unlucky situations when you have really bad missions set from the start and therefore can't upgrade agents and/or buy items, but hey, not every spy could be successful and not every game should be won. :)

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Paganator    2

You gotta love hardcore fans on forums. "The game isn't too hard, you just need to play for 15 to 20 hours to learn the basics. At that point, you should be able to play at least half of the campaign before being forced to restart. After playing several hundred hours, you might even be able to complete the whole campaign once in a while. If anything, the game is too easy." /s

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obliviondoll    40

You gotta love hardcore fans on forums. "The game isn't too hard, you just need to play for 15 to 20 hours to learn the basics. At that point, you should be able to play at least half of the campaign before being forced to restart. After playing several hundred hours, you might even be able to complete the whole campaign once in a while. If anything, the game is too easy." /s

 

Well, luckily for the people who suck as bad as me but don't have my patience and ability to understand my mistakes, the devs are making an easy mode!

 

...yeah, don't take that response seriously. Apart from the "easy mode" part. That's legitimately actually coming.

 

I honestly do think the current difficulty has occasional too-high spikes for a "normal" setting, but they're primarily due to bugs and other unintended behaviours. I'd like to see normal difficulty at least roughly where the game is now, with easy taking a small step or two down and a hard mode to push those rare people who legitimately find the game easy.

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Palpetinus    839

You gotta love hardcore fans on forums. "The game isn't too hard, you just need to play for 15 to 20 hours to learn the basics. At that point, you should be able to play at least half of the campaign before being forced to restart. After playing several hundred hours, you might even be able to complete the whole campaign once in a while. If anything, the game is too easy." /s

 

I've been not even playing for 20 hours and I've already done the main game (finished the last mission, that is).

I've learned the basics by something called common knowledge and slight curiousity. It's not hard to understand at all. And if something is, please tell me what it is so I can understand you people better.

 

I'm pretty sure all you people have no proper clue of what a roguelike is. I'm assuming barely anyone here played the actual Rogue before, but there the first few attempts you won't even beat the first three levels. Did people cry about that that it's too hard? No, it instead defined some sort of entire genre.

So don't go on about how hard Invisible, Inc. is. It's not hard, you're all spoiled by games where you're able to save every ten seconds or have an autosave at every corner, and if you mess up there's no penalty whatsoever.

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the truthseeker    1,560

I've been not even playing for 20 hours and I've already done the main game (finished the last mission, that is).

I've learned the basics by something called common knowledge and slight curiousity. It's not hard to understand at all. And if something is, please tell me what it is so I can understand you people better.

 

I'm pretty sure all you people have no proper clue of what a roguelike is. I'm assuming barely anyone here played the actual Rogue before, but there the first few attempts you won't even beat the first three levels. Did people cry about that that it's too hard? No, it instead defined some sort of entire genre.

So don't go on about how hard Invisible, Inc. is. It's not hard, you're all spoiled by games where you're able to save every ten seconds or have an autosave at every corner, and if you mess up there's no penalty whatsoever.

 

Hold on a moment there. No need to go all aggressive on this.

Even if (and I stress if) some players have cushy gameplay via saving, you're speaking about something literally a generation ago. 

(I swear to god, if you make me start some, "when I was their age" rant....)

Yes, I'm old enough to remember the original Rogue.

Need I remind you that came out in 1980, when many people weren't born yet? Considering millennials weren't even around at the earliest-as in born-until the 1980's, I doubt they would have played Rogue. 

 

And about the game Rogue then, I wouldn't have given it a second thought at the time.

It's the current popularity of the roguelike that got these games in fashion.

 

But many of the new players for this Invisible Inc game got some review on Steam or other gaming site, likely comparing the game to Xcom and the old Steam site had the Roguelike/permadeath buried in the game description not clearly listed. (I should know, I quoted it. )

 

 

But if we were able to look at the old DS responses (if the old forum were still around,) I'd bet a lot of what was said here about it being "too hard" would be true. But get basic game fundamentals down, and the game stops being so "impossible." 

 

And I'm replying to all this between my 10-20 hours played so it's kicking my ass still.

 

Heck, if you saw the Twitch this Thursday it even kicked Bigfoot's ass and he said that was supposed to be so. You have to do tactical planning and play like you would with a roguelike both, or the game will own you. And he being  distracted with the convention (PAX) and the chat (Twitch) could not.

To his credit he completed the mission the second time around,

 

(And I think we're changing the game's name to Chin Inc and will have donut traps, but maybe not...you had to be there, right The Letter W? :razz:

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