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TeoSS69

Discussion and theories about the William Carter puzzles.

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TeoSS69    2,204

This thread is about theories and speculation about William's story. Keep all discussions here so that the puzzle threads are about actually solving the puzzles.

Here's an excellent recap about the puzzles : http://forums.kleientertainment.com/index.php?/topic/24433-william-carters-story-so-farpuzzle-findings-and-lore-compilation/

Remember to keep it on topic. A couple off-topic posts are ok just don't make dozens of pages of unrelated crap.

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the truthseeker    1,560

I think the evil Nightmares are actually...Pokeman.

 

The true terror of the Multiverse. 

 

 

Comne on folks, post something! I see crap-loads  of text everywhere else on the Puzzle threads and nobody else has wild speculation yet when Teo goes and makes a home for it here?

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Craig_Perry    764

I think the evil Nightmares are actually...Pokeman.

 

The true terror of the Multiverse. 

 

 

Comne on folks, post something! I see crap-loads  of text everywhere else on the Puzzle threads and nobody else has wild speculation yet when Teo goes and makes a home for it here?

unfortunate timing i believe, since this was made just as everything died down over there

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TeoSS69    2,204

We just need to spam the link to this thread every time some one makes even the most tiny speculation on the puzzle thread.

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Well, if we need some theories here to make it feel like home to theories posters, 

I guess I could re post my thoughts on the Watchers actually being Them theory.

(Which came to be because of the puzzles if I am correct... so that counts right?)

 

Yes, one thing I noticed about the watchers,

is that they don't have hands... at least they don't show them. (Maybe they always keep them apart from themselves.)

Another interesting thing is that the shadow hands never show what they belong to.

Perhaps the shadow hands belong to the watchers,

and the watchers are indeed Them. (Dun dun dun!)

 

(That... or watchers just don't have hands, and the hands are just hands. XD)

 

I just noticed another interesting thing about the watchers,

unlike the other shadow monsters, they apparently have emotions.

(As you can see the watcher in the ruined 2 picture looks a bit angry, rather then it's normal in game watching look.)

 

Seems like another hint that the watchers may very well be Them. 

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Nebulous    117

I've always written Charlie (grue-Charlie) as having no set form. Think about it. Any darkness big enough for the character to stand in like a dumbass and she appears to smack them into next week. Darkness big and small, doesn't matter.

 

A creature big enough to do 100 damage shouldn't fit in the little wedge of darkness between three mushtrees. But she does.

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Craig_Perry    764

I've always written Charlie (grue-Charlie) as having no set form. Think about it. Any darkness big enough for the character to stand in like a dumbass and she appears to smack them into next week. Darkness big and small, doesn't matter.

 

A creature big enough to do 100 damage shouldn't fit in the little wedge of darkness between three mushtrees. But she does.

as formless as the void-like world in which she is trapped... I like it

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Sarcosuchus    455

Well, if we need some theories here to make it feel like home to theories posters, 

I guess I could re post my thoughts on the Watchers actually being Them theory.

(Which came to be because of the puzzles if I am correct... so that counts right?)

Are we doing a repost archive thingy?

If this is going to be a compilation thread I could repost my recent theories here,if anybody's interested.

(Spoilered of course so they don't look like the freaking Illiad. )

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TeoSS69    2,204

Are we doing a repost archive thingy?

If this is going to be a compilation thread I could repost my recent theories here,if anybody's interested.

(Spoilered of course so they don't look like the freaking Illiad. )

Fill free to add old AND new stuff.

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Sarcosuchus    455

Fill free to add old AND new stuff.

 Seriously, I stick all the old lore things I've done in here, and my posts are going to get real crowded, real quick, even with spoilers.

You sure?

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TeoSS69    2,204

 Seriously, I stick all the old lore things I've done in here, and my posts are going to get real crowded, real quick, even with spoilers.

You sure?

Spoiler tags solve everything. Put everything in one big spoiler tag at the end and you're gold.

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Craig_Perry    764

 

Ok. Still a work in progress, but here's some of my speculation on his story. I'll throw more things in here when I remember/stumble across them again. Questions have been bolded for reading convenience. 

 

I haven't included any of my past theories that have been proved wrong already, but I can if that's something people are interested in seeing. 

 

Why did they take Charlie?

Scrumpadouchus, on 02 Nov 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

(Don't be sad about the were-powers, trust me, they make shaving my legs terribly inconvenient.)

 

Mhm yes. Speculation and random theorising is one of the funnest parts of any fandom/series/piece of media, so I can't say I mind going a while without any content to bide us over. But at this point with what we've seen, even if Charlie doesn't become the night monster, what else could possibly happen to her?

We see both Maxwell and Charlie get grabbed at the end of the cinematic, so they're likely in the other world now. Assuming people can't escape once they're dragged into the world, where would she go, and what could she do? It's not like she can escape. And since Maxwell ends up as the omnipotent controller/creator of that world, wouldn't he know if the shadow monster was her or not anyway?

 

Though, if she does end up beating the odds and surviving I would be quite happy.

 

 

I'm not sure why people are debating whether or not the night monster is Charlie. Not only do we have plenty of textual evidence from Maxwell in the game, as well as directly from the devs, but when considering their plans it makes perfect sense for her to have been turned into a monster.

 

I'm pretty sure that they don't give two cents about Charlie, per se. They're primarily interested in Maxwell; ever sincethey guided him to the book and slowly tricked him into releasing them, they've been grooming him to be a more interesting plaything. They give him a taste of power, and he's absolutely delighted with it, intoxicated enough that he doesn't realize exactly what he's getting into before it's far too late. And once he's in deep enough, they start to twist him... a little shadow corruption here, a little insanity there, a sprinkle of threatening somebody he cares about and eventually you get someone who’s not quite than the timid Englishman you started with. But there’s a pretty big disconnect between “Not quite William” and “Watches an infinite loop of human suffering for giggles.” They were messing with him, but they needed something to break him emotionally and mentally, and what happens to Charlie fits the bill perfectly. 

 

If you boil down their strategy, it all comes down to the assignment of blame. They've specifically designed the situation from the beginning so that no matter what happens, it seems like his fault. And let’s make this clear: his hands aren’t squeaky clean, but they've been playing him like a fiddle from the start, magnifying what he sees as his level of control over events. And because William thinks he's in command, he feels responsible for the events that ensued, even though that was by no means the case.

 

I’d like to think that they specifically planned the entire scheme so that he could be haunted by what he perceived as the direct consequences of his choices, even though he was nothing but a pawn from the start. The poor guy just liked magic. He found a book that let him do amazing things, that let him finally be the successful magician he always dreamed of being. He didn’t think things through as much as he should have, but how could he have had any inkling of what he was dealing with? His curiosity and enthusiasm made him careless, yes, but the degree to which things escalate shows that he never really had anything beyond an illusion of control. He was in over his head from the moment he opened the thing, but looking back on everything that happened, he can still trace everything back to decisions he feels were his alone. Everything they do, he sees as something he’s responsible for, and that gives them a metric crapton of power over his mental state.

 

They’re messing with his head, making him hate himself, to regret. And that’s where Charlie comes in. They threaten her a little at first, just to make sure that Maxwell will respond violently to defend her. And then, having proven how important she is to him, they strike, intentionally taking them both at once. It's one thing to despair knowing you've condemned yourself to terrible fate, but another thing entirely to know that you've done the same to someone you care about.  Maxwell sees that he’s dragged her into this with him (quite literally), and that regret is what they use to get him into the throne.  They offer him one last choice: Probably something along the lines of, "one of you must take a place on the throne to ensure the other’s freedom". Maxwell accepts to secure what he thinks is Charlie’s safety, which is exactly what they intend. He is trapped, but granted all the powers of a chessboard king, and she is allowed to remain free, but at the cost of being transfigured.

 

And Maxwell has to watch as the consequences of his decisions, no matter how well intentioned, are manipulated, amplified, and spat back in his face as Charlie’s suffering.  The grief and the guilt break him, and they savor their victory and wait until the months and years turn his despair into an apathy equivalent to a surrender to their will. The nightmares hollow him out, until finally, nothing remains but dust, the void... and them. 

 

The Train Wreck and William's discovery of the Codex.

 

AlliePerie, on 01 Nov 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

@JeMiChi, no you're right. The newspaper in the puzzle mentioned that a "passenger​ train struck a circus wagon." So Maxwell, or in this case William, didn't run off with the circus. I assumed he joined the circus 'cause he keeps a poster of it in his study. So if he wasn't part of it, why does he keep the poster?

 

I just had a terrifying thought. What if all of this was planned? William's train colliding with the circus wagon, his discovery of the Codex Umbra, and the subsequent events after. William was the prime target, a down on his luck magician wanting a fresh start, someone who'll do anything for success.

 

What if Maxwel'sl meeting with Charlie wasn't a coincidence? What if...

 

What if Charlie was part of the trap for Maxwell...?

 

Yep, the newspaper explicitly states that William was on the passenger train, as the other passengers gave a description of him for the missing person's report. There's also a ticket at the bottom of the page for his seat in coach. In my opinion, he kept the poster as a memento of the event, as without the train crash, he would never have found the Codex at all. 

 

He sees it as a stroke of luck, stumbling across the book, but I don't think it's that simple by any means. 

Somehow, they are directly responsible for causing the train wreck, as it's mentioned in the newspaper scrap that three crashes have occurred at exactly the same spot since the railroad's construction. I suppose that's the only way they can get people to discover the place where the codex is hidden. The place does seem to be in the middle of nowhere, as all the stops listed on the circus' poster are ghost towns, and the newspaper describes the "remoteness of the site, and the scorching desert sun". 

 

My guess is they can somehow mess with the rail lines and cause the train to crash, in this instance, by making the circus wagon break down, but they have to do it strategically. Too many times, the railway will be shut down as unsafe, human traffic through the area will stop, and they're up a creek. So they choose to crash the train only when they can tell someone particularly vulnerable to their wiles is aboard. William, down on his luck, desperate for success, and a magic enthusiast to boot, would have been an ideal candidate. They crash the train and somehow shield William from physical harm in the wreck (many other passengers were injured, and he's no good to them if he can't get away safely with the book), but ensure that he is thrown far enough away from the tracks (down a slope, into a crevasse, etc) that he can easily find wherever the codex has been squirreled away. 

They can't just shove it into his hands, since it's been repeatedly emphasized that his power of choice is paramount. They can't manifest very strongly in this world until they trick someone into letting them in, but they stack the deck in their favor by making sure that only people who are particularly motivated to accept are presented with the choice at all. 

 

Why did Maxwell choose Wilson? The importance of the radio.

Stormrider1138, on 01 Nov 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

All we know is that he was tricked into building a machine that would send him to hell. But we don't know why, why him? Why not one of the other thousand scientists out there? That is what i won't to know.

 

If it turns out to just be the luck of the draw then I will be a little disappointed in Klei. But I doubt that will happen, Klei has given us a great ride so far so I think there is more to Wilson than we think.

If it helps, this addresses why the protagonists all have W last names, Wilson included. 

http://dont-starve-g....com/wiki/Radio

So he had a somewhat limited victim pool to begin with, but in terms of why he picked Wilson specifically...partially, it might have to do with how fond Maxwell is of magic. It's not likely he had a large pool of magicians to choose from, and after all, sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic. Maxwell also probably found nice symmetry in giving Wilson the ability to do scientific "tricks" that led to his own abduction, much like how they gave William advanced magic tricks as a means to the same end.

In that line of thinking, it's also very likely that Max picked Wilson because he's very much like William used to be: intelligent, timid, ambitious but unsuccessful, and enthusiastic to the point of foolishness. And we all know know how Maxwell feels about William. 

 

The Codex Umbra: What's in a name? 

Alright. I love that they named the book the Codex Umbra. 

And before I start with blowing this fact stupidly out of proportion, I want to make it very clear that I know that Umbra is just shadow in Latin. They named it the shadow book in Latin, and that is probably all there is to it. 

 

But I'm kind of geeking out about their choice of words. I mean, it could have been named anything: it could have been a variant of the Necronomicon, or just been called mysterious book or Maxwell's book or something. But the modern definition of the word umbra is interestingly specific: it doesn't just mean shadow. Umbra, along with penumbra and antumbra, are words most frequently used to describe the parts of shadows cast by celestial bodies. Specifically, the umbra is the "innermost and darkest part" of the shadow of such an object. 

 

And though I know this line of thinking is complete and utter bullcrap, it still gives me a ticket for the speculation and blatant over-interpretation express. Because if the word choice here is intentional, (and let's pretend that I'm not stark raving bonkers, and it is)  it has such beautifully Lovecraftian implications about what they actually are. It means that what Wilson and Maxwell and the other survivors have seen and feared and fought against are not even close to the actual entities behind the scenes.

 

We've called them shadow creatures, under the assumption that they were monsters made of shadow, somehow composed of the nightmare fuel left behind on their apparent "destruction". But that repulsive essence isn't what they're really made of, it's what their shadows are made of. And if just the shadow, just the suggestion of the identity of a thing is something that terrifying, that capable of harm, and made of such powerful, abhorrent stuff, you have to ask yourself...what must the real thing be like? 

 

If the repugnant entities Wilson and the others see are only insubstantial projections, the slightest hints of the leviathan scale of the creatures and forces at play...and if the survivors have to let the dregs of their sanity slip through their fingers just to see the dark outline, the umbra of malignant things celestial in proportion and power...

 

...

William should have burned that book when he still had the chance. 

 

time to read all these again! good times!

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d2r    80

I just want to take this opportunity to note that of Klei's all-time "Most Liked" posts, half are from the Puzzle Thread (god rest it). :p

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TeoSS69    2,204

I just want to take this opportunity to note that of Klei's all-time "Most Liked" posts, half are from the Puzzle Thread (god rest it). :razz:

Yeah, newcomers tend to like everything thinking they have unlimited likes per day.

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d2r    80

Yeah, newcomers tend to like everything thinking they have unlimited likes per day.

 

It would have been really ironic if I'd reached my quota just then...

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TeoSS69    2,204

It would have been really ironic if I'd reached my quota just then...

Heh, what saddens me is that people care more about a Terrorbeak with a hat than actual news about the game. Even Spaz's great puzzle recap is down the list.

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d2r    80

Heh, what saddens me is that people care more about a Terrorbeak with a hat than actual news about the game. Even Spaz's great puzzle recap is down the list.

 

I think it's because it's easy to think of the likes as being analogous to Facebook likes, as opposed to something you use to increase a post's visibility.

 

Although to be fair, I don't necessarily think that having a joke post be #1 is necessarily a bad thing.

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TeoSS69    2,204

Although to be fair, I don't necessarily think that having a joke post be #1 is necessarily a bad thing.

Yeah, that will change. Wait until U&A is released.

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Sarcosuchus    455

I just want to take this opportunity to note that of Klei's all-time "Most Liked" posts, half are from the Puzzle Thread (god rest it). :razz:

I had no idea that there was a most liked posts page! It's funny that the hat joke is not only the very top post, but that the third most liked post is almost exactly the same. For some reason people just went bananas over habadashery for a little while. The tie-in promotion with Team Fortress 2 items seems a lot more appropriate now :grin:

 

also how in the sweet name of all that is scientific did three of my lore speculation posts make the top liked page what even is this sorcery

Edited by Sarcosuchus

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TeoSS69    2,204

also how in the sweet name of all that is scientific did three of my lore speculation posts make the top liked page what even is this sorcery

Because they made the most sense.

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Hugo M.    843

Sense?

 

We don't need sense...

CRAZY THEORY:THE EYES YOU SEE IN THE DARKNESS WHEN YOU'RE INSANE ARE ACTUALLY NEBULOUS COUSINS!

That's right, after all they are just theories.

Edited by Hugo M.

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