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[Discussion] Ranged Weapons' Biggest Problem And Suggestion About Fixing Walter

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Mysterious box    2041
5 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

And saying something should change just because it's always been that way is a good one? You have literally brought forth zero arguments on why changing ranged to be the same as melee would be an improvement. 

Because i didn't ask them to be the same I said it needs a rework.

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Cloakingsumo198    2076

I never found a purpose in using the cursed rounds since mobs don't stay in place for those tentacles to wail on them.

Anyways I just want some way to get a quicker shot in so I can take potshots at mobs while kiting in melee.

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Rafi.    636
15 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

How does the slingshot specifically help his downsides...

It helps because you have the choice, I did a good part of the bosses with Walter's slingshot, and it's not as bad as people says so. (Low DPS for sure but still very usable and safe). Taming a beefalo is nice because, yes, indeed, it removes his downside for melee attacks (he's still affected by ranged one like bishop's one.). If it didn't, Woby would have been way better than beefalos on the long run, which shouldn't be because Woby is supposed to be a cheap mount that cost almost nothing to ride her. You have all the utility of the beef on her (Plus 9 free inventory slots, seems like people always forget how nice that is), you're just not able to take damage, which is fine, if you want to bypass a good part of your main downside, you need to do a little bit of grind, which is not bad gameplay design in my opinion.

It sures works for players that can't kite. And yes, indeed it's very low DPS compared to other characters, but you can just kill basically anything without even being in range of their attacks, which is the point of r a n g e d weapons, being safe, but low DPS, if I had to compare with another game, Terraria follows a similar idea, safe, and a low and consistent DPS (compared to what other classes can achieve).

With a little bit of different ammos you can have a very safe early ruin rush, you can very easily kill Bee Queen during your first autumn with Walter too. (And on Woby as well, zamn !) I don't feel like ranged combat isn't worth it, you just need to know how to use it as its best. (And not only for shooting birds hahaha) I'll never say that it's perfect, there's problems with it, such as being a pretty boring gameplay, but at some point, even melee feels boring. Fighting should be updated one day to atleast have a bigger variety of viable weapons that doesn't feels underwhelming on every point against similar options (Thinking about the Thulecite's Club being a low cost cane.)

17 hours ago, goatt said:

My suggestion tries to be as minor as possible. It avoids any complex idea and consequently avoids many interesting ideas. It mainly tries to find a motivation for Walter to go back to monsters to make his fights less tedious rather than making his fights more interesting. It will have the same result, but different goals, hence, different approaches.

You did suggests ideas way bigger than what I suggested previously. Your idea is flawed too. As I said, people could just play Regular old Walter with extra DPS, ammo conservation isn't that big of a deal (marbles and cursed rounds are very cheap.).

17 hours ago, goatt said:

It is alright and passable. But it’s lengthy and repetitive. Not only that, it’s true for almost all monsters. Imagine a character only do running and shooting to all bosses and with 3x time, it would be extra tedious for extra long time. In comparison, melee fights with different bosses usually have very different experience.

It's indeed very repetitive, tell me about it, but that's how alot of ranged gameplay in video games are (especially in "survival sandbox" games.)

Edited by Rafi.
reduced the size of the quote, still asnwer to the full post tho.
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Mysterious box    2041
3 hours ago, Rafi. said:

It helps because you have the choice, I did a good part of the bosses with Walter's slingshot, and it's not as bad as people says so. (Low DPS for sure but still very usable and safe).

There are multiple usable ways for Walter to fight bosses technically. It's possible yes but that doesn't mean it's good I'm not saying that it's bad either tho but I'd still say it's better off being changed a combat mechanic that results in being punishingly slow and tedious or extremely cheesy just feels wrong.  

 

4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

Taming a beefalo is nice because, yes, indeed, it removes his downside for melee attacks (he's still affected by ranged one like bishop's one.). If it didn't, Woby would have been way better than beefalos on the long run, which shouldn't be because Woby is supposed to be a cheap mount that cost almost nothing to ride her. You have all the utility of the beef on her (Plus 9 free inventory slots, seems like people always forget how nice that is), you're just not able to take damage, which is fine, if you want to bypass a good part of your main downside, you need to do a little bit of grind, which is not bad gameplay design in my opinion.

Ironically Woby quickly becomes more expensive than a beefalo if you aren't actively farming monster meat as you travel since you also need to keep feeding her to keep her top speed which is something you don't need to worry about on a beefalo and once the beefalo is close to tamed it takes less management than Woby rider wise I do think she needs another look as well if only just removing the speed decay.

That aside I kinda feel like they may as well remove the sanity downside if it's causing the most sought after strat for playing a character to ignore his primary companion for a superior mount just to ignore the downside that's supposed to encourage unique gameplay. I don't actually want it removed but I feel like they should do something so that it's more viable to depend on Woby than a secondary mount. On the whole tho Walter's playstyle at least for me doesn't feel any safer than most other characters even less so when most of that safety is coming from having a wall of meat block most incoming damage.

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Rafi.    636
2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

There are multiple usable ways for Walter to fight bosses technically. It's possible yes but that doesn't mean it's good I'm not saying that it's bad either tho but I'd still say it's better off being changed a combat mechanic that results in being punishingly slow and tedious or extremely cheesy just feels wrong.  

I feel fine doing that, that's kind of POV thing, of course it could be improved, but the problem isn't Walter. That's the whole fighting system, using stacks of blowdarts to kill anything feels even cheesier.

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Ironically Woby quickly becomes more expensive than a beefalo if you aren't actively farming monster meat as you travel since you also need to keep feeding her to keep her top speed which is something you don't need to worry about on a beefalo and once the beefalo is close to tamed it takes less management than Woby rider wise I do think she needs another look as well if only just removing the speed decay.

That aside I kinda feel like they may as well remove the sanity downside if it's causing the most sought after strat for playing a character to ignore his primary companion for a superior mount just to ignore the downside that's supposed to encourage unique gameplay. I don't actually want it removed but I feel like they should do something so that it's more viable to depend on Woby than a secondary mount. On the whole tho Walter's playstyle at least for me doesn't feel any safer than most other characters even less so when most of that safety is coming from having a wall of meat block most incoming damage.

Beside your first 20 days and moving statues, you don't have any reason to use Woby as a mount (besides maybe if you really want to go as fast as possible and being resilient to tame a beefalo), and, on the long run, as I said, beefalos should stay the superior option. I wouldn't mind removing the speed decay tho, that could simplify unnecessary problem during some early fights. I think that Woby is fine right now, as a secondary mount  it doesn't sounds great, but she's a bigger backpack too which is something alot of people seems to oversight..

When it comes to DST, the best way to feel safe is to know how to optimally overcome any situation. I never felt that Walter was that much lacking when it comes to avaiable option to just not die, especially if you're going to stay at range of most danger sources which are mobs, you'll have plenty of time to think about what to do before you're potentially in danger. Good tanking options aren't numerous in the game (which is what Walter is bad at). Even with a beefalo. If you can avoid a hit, you should in most cases.

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goatt    940
7 hours ago, Rafi. said:

Your idea is flawed too. As I said, people could just play Regular old Walter with extra DPS

Yes, that's absolutely true. And I have no problem with it. I only provide suggestions to those who might need it, but not to those who find it not a problem. My suggestions are usually presented as an option. Not using the option I suggested is not a flaw, it's your freedom. And it's also my intention to not affect those who prefer to play him the old way if they want to .

 

7 hours ago, Rafi. said:

You did suggests ideas way bigger than what I suggested previously.

I posted a very specific problem and tried to solve my posted problem. I don't know what you are trying to solve, maybe "to make playing Walter more interesting"? Yeah, you can suggest whatever with that goal, but your "interesting" just mean "stay away monsters, shooting many kinds of bullets". Yes, shooting slingshot in different postures is fun, but it doesn't solve the problem that this playstyle miss out the majority of the combat interaction because they are all close range interactions.

Your suggestions were intuitive, but didn't realize the "biggest problem" I suggested.

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Mysterious box    2041
4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

I feel fine doing that, that's kind of POV thing, of course it could be improved, but the problem isn't Walter. That's the whole fighting system, using stacks of blowdarts to kill anything feels even cheesier.

I agree this is why I want a rework I've said as much in other threads.(and possibly this one but they're all starting to blur together now)

 

4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

Beside your first 20 days and moving statues, you don't have any reason to use Woby as a mount (besides maybe if you really want to go as fast as possible and being resilient to tame a beefalo), and, on the long run, as I said, beefalos should stay the superior option. I wouldn't mind removing the speed decay tho, that could simplify unnecessary problem during some early fights. I think that Woby is fine right now, as a secondary mount  it doesn't sounds great, but she's a bigger backpack too which is something alot of people seems to oversight..

This is understandable but I hate this I really dislike the idea that Woby be a early game mount rather than giving her a way to become a better mount even if it isn't in the same way I feel like Kiel could figure something out don't get me wrong the storage thing is nice and all but I never find myself in dire need of the extra space.

 

4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

When it comes to DST, the best way to feel safe is to know how to optimally overcome any situation. I never felt that Walter was that much lacking when it comes to avaiable option to just not die, especially if you're going to stay at range of most danger sources which are mobs, you'll have plenty of time to think about what to do before you're potentially in danger. Good tanking options aren't numerous in the game (which is what Walter is bad at). Even with a beefalo. If you can avoid a hit, you should in most cases.

While Walter's kit can lead to some battles being easier than others much like other characters I really don't see him as the safest option overall just a option.

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ArubaroBeefalo    18424

woby's speed decay helps to know that she will lose her transformation so i think is better is klei simply increase the full speed duration while keeping the decay as something informative 

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Rafi.    636
30 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I agree this is why I want a rework I've said as much in other threads.(and possibly this one but they're all starting to blur together now)

This is understandable but I hate this I really dislike the idea that Woby be a early game mount rather than giving her a way to become a better mount even if it isn't in the same way I feel like Kiel could figure something out don't get me wrong the storage thing is nice and all but I never find myself in dire need of the extra space.

While Walter's kit can lead to some battles being easier than others much like other characters I really don't see him as the safest option overall just a option.

It's just the way it is I guess, what's nice about Woby, even during late game is that you can just play without any backpack and makes every body slot item viable, I assure you, it's alot of fun and actually pretty powerful ! For the mount side yeah, very good early game but not much otherwise, I can understand why you would want to see Woby shines more but right now she's fine as an early mount, maybe find another way to make her useful ? you're right tho, Klei could figure it out if they feel like it's needed.

5 hours ago, goatt said:

Yes, that's absolutely true. And I have no problem with it. I only provide suggestions to those who might need it, but not to those who find it not a problem. My suggestions are usually presented as an option. Not using the option I suggested is not a flaw, it's your freedom. And it's also my intention to not affect those who prefer to play him the old way if they want to .

 

I posted a very specific problem and tried to solve my posted problem. I don't know what you are trying to solve, maybe "to make playing Walter more interesting"? Yeah, you can suggest whatever with that goal, but your "interesting" just mean "stay away monsters, shooting many kinds of bullets". Yes, shooting slingshot in different postures is fun, but it doesn't solve the problem that this playstyle miss out the majority of the combat interaction because they are all close range interactions.

Your suggestions were intuitive, but didn't realize the "biggest problem" I suggested.

With the upgraded slingshot you'll make the first one irrelevant, which is too bad since Klei tried to make some weapon on par with others (didn't quite succeed). Which is then, a flaw if it goes against current design proccess. Your idea of pellets having a chance of being reused is great, but needs more fleshing out, sure you can save some ammos by going into a danger zone, but by doing that, you'll loose safety and dps. Not that fair of a trade. (This could be alright with Woby bringing by herself the ammos).

The problem that you want to solve is "by using the safest and most rewarding ranged combat style, players miss out a lot of the content that are well designed for melee warriors". I can understand that you see this as a problem, but the thing is, they're not forced to be ranged. They choose to not have to kite and interact much with mobs, for the reason that it's very safe, not rewarding tho, that's just not true, you'll loose way less time and resources by kiting normally with a weapon such as a tentacle spike or a hambat rather than using marble rounds to kill almost any mobs and bosses (My only exception here is Bee Queen). And just as you said, it's well designed "for melee warriors" not ranged ones, so your suggestions would just basically end up in people using the upgraded slingshot and still stay far away from the danger zone, you didn't solve anything and made the "safest and most rewarding ranged combat style" an even more incentive choice.

My suggestion is far from being perfect, but would give an actual good reward for getting closer to danger, which is extra dps, and would punish you if you stay far away by doing same dps as the basic slingshot but using more ammos. You could still use the regular slingshot for playing the same good ol' Walter as before which would still be viable depending on how you want to play. By doing that, I think we're closer to an actual good solution for the problem you posted about than what you suggested. The perfect solution would be a fighting update, but I don't know if we will see that anytime soon (I wish we could).

11 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

woby's speed decay helps to know that she will lose her transformation so i think is better is klei simply increase the full speed duration while keeping the decay as something informative 

She could start to loose more and more hair as time goes by. That would be a cool way to have a sort of "timer".

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goatt    940
5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

but the thing is, they're not forced to be ranged.

I personally do feel forced, knowing careless mistakes can bring catastrophic consequences, namely fast depletion of sanity.

We basically agree on this point.

 

5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

My suggestion is far from being perfect, but would give an actual good reward for getting closer to danger, which is extra dps

slower initial attack animation of slingshot, plus expensive ammo crafting cost, together to achieve the same level of dps as cheap melee weapons and same dangerous combat environment? You suggested close range slingshot is kinda useless since melee is better, especially with shield of terror, which provides same damage as best ammo as well as armor.

 

5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

sure you can save some ammos by going into a danger zone, but by doing that, you'll loose safety and dps. Not that fair of a trade.

Let me clarify. Imagine the boss is deerclops. You start off with slingshot. When it comes to the time to recycle, you get close to the deerclops, close enough for Woby to find ammos, but not as close as players' melee attack range. This range is still very far, farther than whip's attack range. It's much easier to dodge any boss' attack with this far range. This would be enough to trigger the deerclops' close range attacks, but those attacks are far less likely to land on players, unless the players are very careless.

Regarding fair trade, it's a proper risk, but with a big incentive, because it's much safer than melee attack range.

And it's not just  to "save some ammo", some ammo are more worth saving than others. I assume ammo used in boss fights are much more worth saving. Cursed rounds aren't unlimited within a period, marble rounds also take time to grow. The only ammo that's not worth saving is gold round.

 

5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

so your suggestions would just basically end up in people using the upgraded slingshot and still stay far away from the danger zone, you didn't solve anything and made the "safest and most rewarding ranged combat style" an even more incentive choice.

Again, I don't think that matter. It's their preference after their own consideration. Especially some bosses are more dangerous than other. In that case, I would also advice them to abandon those ammo.

I can give you some examples that recycling ammo will be preferred. Toadstool, safe to get near and get spore bombs. Goose and treeguards, low risk. Eye of terror, you can always keep it in a small area by move in circle, and it has medium pause for you to attack and collect (by woby) at the same time. Antlion, always safe to collect. Dragonfly, if you wall individual lava pool. Bee Queen, if you use wall cross, method, you always run in circle and will go back to where your ammo bounce off. Celestial champion, same, will always go back in short while and repeat.

In many cases, boss will move away from the dropped ammo, you can temporarily stall the boss by intentionally trigger their attacks in very safe distance to buy time for Woby to collect ammo, you might also be able to slingshoot while trigger boss' attack at the edge of their attack range.

Unlike your close range slingshot attack, which requires you to stand still for awhile to shoot the first bullet, my intentional triggering boss' attack doesn't need you to stand still, and hence, much safer.

I think it would be very wasteful to not reuse those ammo, but you are free to not do so.

Edited by goatt

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Cheggf    8700
1 hour ago, goatt said:

I personally do feel forced, knowing careless mistakes can bring catastrophic consequences, namely fast depletion of sanity.

If you hate using melee as Walter and you hate using the slingshot as Walter just don't play Walter. You clearly don't like him and aren't good at managing his downsides.

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goatt    940
14 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

If you hate using melee as Walter and you hate using the slingshot as Walter just don't play Walter. You clearly don't like him and aren't good at managing his downsides.

Yeah, I don’t play Walter. But that’s not the point. At least that’s not the point I wanted to argue.

The point is that Walter players will incline to play ranged.

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kirihime    164
1 hour ago, goatt said:

Yeah, I don’t play Walter. But that’s not the point. At least that’s not the point I wanted to argue.

The point is that Walter players will incline to play ranged.

I play Walter and I gravitate towards melee as Walter, this is usually also what I see from other Walters.

the slingshot is decent for killing birds and stuff but you won't make it your main method of attack

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Rafi.    636
5 hours ago, goatt said:

slower initial attack animation of slingshot, plus expensive ammo crafting cost, together to achieve the same level of dps as cheap melee weapons and same dangerous combat environment? You suggested close range slingshot is kinda useless since melee is better, especially with shield of terror, which provides same damage as best ammo as well as armor.

Let me clarify. Imagine the boss is deerclops. You start off with slingshot. When it comes to the time to recycle, you get close to the deerclops, close enough for Woby to find ammos, but not as close as players' melee attack range. This range is still very far, farther than whip's attack range. It's much easier to dodge any boss' attack with this far range. This would be enough to trigger the deerclops' close range attacks, but those attacks are far less likely to land on players, unless the players are very careless.

Regarding fair trade, it's a proper risk, but with a big incentive, because it's much safer than melee attack range.

And it's not just  to "save some ammo", some ammo are more worth saving than others. I assume ammo used in boss fights are much more worth saving. Cursed rounds aren't unlimited within a period, marble rounds also take time to grow. The only ammo that's not worth saving is gold round.

 

Again, I don't think that matter. It's their preference after their own consideration. Especially some bosses are more dangerous than other. In that case, I would also advice them to abandon those ammo.

I can give you some examples that recycling ammo will be preferred. Toadstool, safe to get near and get spore bombs. Goose and treeguards, low risk. Eye of terror, you can always keep it in a small area by move in circle, and it has medium pause for you to attack and collect (by woby) at the same time. Antlion, always safe to collect. Dragonfly, if you wall individual lava pool. Bee Queen, if you use wall cross, method, you always run in circle and will go back to where your ammo bounce off. Celestial champion, same, will always go back in short while and repeat.

In many cases, boss will move away from the dropped ammo, you can temporarily stall the boss by intentionally trigger their attacks in very safe distance to buy time for Woby to collect ammo, you might also be able to slingshoot while trigger boss' attack at the edge of their attack range.

Unlike your close range slingshot attack, which requires you to stand still for awhile to shoot the first bullet, my intentional triggering boss' attack doesn't need you to stand still, and hence, much safer.

I think it would be very wasteful to not reuse those ammo, but you are free to not do so.

With my idea you can actually achieve a pretty sustainable dps, two shots connecting with the target would result in 102 damage with marbles. I did mention Walter shooting 3 rounds at the same time, even with the slow attack animation you would be on par since it would result 153 damage if all hit connects (which might be too much, 2 rounds seems more than okay). With my idea aswell, you could have powerful combo with ice rounds being potentially two times faster than the regular slingshot, or with cursed rounds potentially activating 2 tentacles. And all of that doesn't come free, to the price of being closer to your target, of course you don't need to be hugging the mob, but you could be atleast at whip range to hit all of your shots.

I don't think any ammo are worth saving, besides ice and slow rounds that have items in their crafts that are "hard" to mass produce (varg farm goes brrr). Marble sure takes abit of time to grow, but each time you harvest, you can multiply your marble shrubs by 2. You'll have plenty of marble rounds during first year (not mentioning that you can make dozen of stacks of cursed rounds during your first autumn if you do a little trip to the ruins).

You don't think that making a weapon just another crafting material and giving people even more reasons to stay at max range most of the time is a problem, okay. Then you don't care about resolving the problem you talked about in the first place. I feel like that thread is just about making Walter easier and use "ranged bad" (which is a real problem, but not with the points that you're standing with) as a cover.

When it comes to Toadstool (I feel like Antlion can be thrown here too) you said that it was very safe to stay close to it, why would you use your slingshot to get ammo when you can use things like morning stars, glass cutters, thulecite clubs and dark swords which are way more efficient ? Walter is able to use melee weapons, he can atleast have one or two fights when it actually feels the straight up better option.

The whole point of my slingshot idea is to be riskier for having a better DPS, even as something as little as a range similar to whips one, you can easily land one to three hits without moving at all (Which is alot if you look at what damage would result in the end as I mentioned earlier).

4 hours ago, goatt said:

Yeah, I don’t play Walter. But that’s not the point. At least that’s not the point I wanted to argue.

The point is that Walter players will incline to play ranged.

Ah yes, Walter inducing ranged gameplay is bad even if one of his main perk is about using a ranged weapon.

 

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reallychina    867

Sorry OP but you're just wasting time.

 

The game, like most games now, is designed to be playable on consoles. Console is awful for targeting, which in turn made developers design games with minimal targeting required.

One of the many reasons i hate consoles with a fiery and righteous passion. Its not like they can stick to ruining games for themselves, they have to ruin the games for all of us.

Edited by reallychina
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goatt    940

1)

On 5/14/2022 at 5:56 AM, Rafi. said:

I would just add a shotgun like slingshot. Shoots 3 bullets in a spread, you'll need to get closer to make all the 3 bullets connect to the target.

2)

On 5/16/2022 at 6:16 AM, Rafi. said:

two shots connecting with the target

3)

On 5/16/2022 at 6:16 AM, Rafi. said:

I did mention Walter shooting 3 rounds at the same time

I think there is some misunderstanding. First, you said, "shot gun", "in a spread". I don't understand what you mean by "in a spread", I looked it up, nothing showed up. So I imagined bread spread, which is like a 3 bullets spread out on a bread one after another, which makes sense paired with "shot gun". In other words, I understood "in a spread" as in sequence. So I definitely didn't think your idea was good, as it would create too powerful stun locks. And I always find it hard to understand your word choices, but if you are talking about Walter can get better dps at closer range, then I agree it's a potential solution to the problem I posted.

If you are talking about shooting 3 bullets at the same time, it's conflicts with my intuition that Walter shouldn't have powerful dps, at least not exceeding dark sword. That intuition of mine can be wrong. But that's one reason I don't like it.

Another reason I don't like your idea is that it feels very much same as melee (whip is considered as melee in this case). It's because the players are required to constantly stay in close range to have this powerful dps. That's different from what I imagined. I imagine a playstyle where Walters can stay ranged during most of his battle, but do have incentive to go close range from time to time. I don't like Walters to stay in close range all time, but just occasionally. That's why in my previous reply, I compared your suggested playstyle directly to melee weapons, with the conclusion that it's likely worse than melees in many cases because of the slow animation and Walter's downsides.

 

On 5/16/2022 at 6:16 AM, Rafi. said:

I don't think any ammo are worth saving

This point of your views is very outstanding throughout our exchange. And it's very sensible for you to conclude that people would stay max range without bothering reusing.

In my experience in pubs (that's where i usually play), marbles are a rare commodity. It goes faster than grows. Not to mention thulecites which cannot be regenerated without substantial effort. I assume what you said is valid even tho it's not true to my experience, and I said it's your preference. I don't think your not wanting to reuse will matter too much to my suggestions because many other would want to reuse. I can see many Walters die of retrieving ammo in my pub games.

 

On 5/16/2022 at 6:16 AM, Rafi. said:

When it comes to Toadstool (I feel like Antlion can be thrown here too) you said that it was very safe to stay close to it, why would you use your slingshot to get ammo when you can use things like morning stars, glass cutters, thulecite clubs and dark swords which are way more efficient ? Walter is able to use melee weapons, he can atleast have one or two fights when it actually feels the straight up better option.

Yeah, then use them. Again, I don't think my suggested play style has to be adopted in all circumstances. It is easier to use dark sword in the first 2 stages of toadstool, then he should do so. But it is much safer for Walters to shoot toadstool in its last stage so he can shoot without being interrupted by stomps. And for antlion, ranged is way safer than melee because the limited space within the sand castle circle is too small to easily dodge the spike attack, it would require melee to spend enormous attention to perfectly dodge it all, while ranged players can easily dodge them all.

Again, just because ranged weapon is not a better choice in some cases doesn't mean it's always a worse weapon. Ranged weapon will be superior in most cases especially considering Walters' downsides.

 

On 5/16/2022 at 6:16 AM, Rafi. said:

you can easily land one to three hits without moving at all (Which is alot if you look at what damage would result in the end as I mentioned earlier).

First slingshot always takes 30% more time. Assuming slingshot damage is twice as melee weapon of choice, but shoots at half speed.

Landing 1 hit results in 30% less damage than melee weapon. (Landing 1 hit of melee weapon can take even less time than 1 normal melee attack if you cancel the back-swing)

Landing 2 hits results in 15% less damage than melee weapon.

Landing 3 hits results in 10% less damage than melee weapon. Edit: questionable data

I think "hit and run" kinda kiting will naturally slow down Walter's damage. Walter is always better off having a intense session of shooting. The only way to make it up is to modify damage on paper, which I think is not a good way of improve mechanism-related stuff. I think the slingshot rate equivalence cannot exceed melee attack rate as default. In other words, it should not shoot more than 2 ammo at a time. (However, changing the current half speed to normal melee speed equivalence is not considered as "change damage on paper", because it's returning its damage to default value.
 

In summary, I think your idea that shorter range causes higher damage (without increasing attack rate) is a valid solution to the problem I posted, but I don't like it for the reasons above. You said my suggested playstyle is not always preferred, which is true. But it's not a problem because it is preferred in majority of the cases.

Edited by goatt

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Rafi.    636
1 hour ago, goatt said:

I think there is some misunderstanding. First, you said, "shot gun", "in a spread". I don't understand what you mean by "in a spread", I looked it up, nothing showed up. So I imagined bread spread, which is like a 3 bullets spread out on a bread one after another, which makes sense paired with "shot gun". In other words, I understood "in a spread" as in sequence. So I definitely didn't think your idea was good, as it would create too powerful stun locks. And I always find it hard to understand your word choices, but if you are talking about Walter can get better dps at closer range, then I agree it's a potential solution to the problem I posted.

If you are talking about shooting 3 bullets at the same time, it's conflicts with my intuition that Walter shouldn't have powerful dps, at least not exceeding dark sword. That intuition of mine can be wrong. But that's one reason I don't like it.

Another reason I don't like your idea is that it feels very much same as melee (whip is considered as melee in this case). It's because the players are required to constantly stay in close range to have this powerful dps. That's different from what I imagined. I imagine a playstyle where Walters can stay ranged during most of his battle, but do have incentive to go close range from time to time. I don't like Walters to stay in close range all time, but just occasionally. That's why in my previous reply, I compared your suggested playstyle directly to melee weapons, with the conclusion that it's likely worse than melees in many cases because of the slow animation and Walter's downsides.

 

This point of your views is very outstanding throughout our exchange. And it's very sensible for you to conclude that people would stay max range without bothering reusing.

In my experience in pubs (that's where i usually play), marbles are a rare commodity. It goes faster than grows. Not to mention thulecites which cannot be regenerated without substantial effort. I assume what you said is valid even tho it's not true to my experience, and I said it's your preference. I don't think your not wanting to reuse will matter too much to my suggestions because many other would want to reuse. I can see many Walters die of retrieving ammo in my pub games.

 

Yeah, then use them. Again, I don't think my suggested play style has to be adopted in all circumstances. It is easier to use dark sword in the first 2 stages of toadstool, then he should do so. But it is much safer for Walters to shoot toadstool in its last stage so he can shoot without being interrupted by stomps. And for antlion, ranged is way safer than melee because the limited space within the sand castle circle is too small to easily dodge the spike attack, it would require melee to spend enormous attention to perfectly dodge it all, while ranged players can easily dodge them all.

Again, just because ranged weapon is not a better choice in some cases doesn't mean it's always a worse weapon. Ranged weapon will be superior in most cases especially considering Walters' downsides.

 

First slingshot always takes 30% more time. Assuming slingshot damage is twice as melee weapon of choice, but shoots at half speed.

Landing 1 hit results in 30% less damage than melee weapon. (Landing 1 hit of melee weapon can take even less time than 1 normal melee attack if you cancel the back-swing)

Landing 2 hits results in 15% less damage than melee weapon.

Landing 3 hits results in 10% less damage than melee weapon.

I think "hit and run" kinda kiting will naturally slow down Walter's damage. Walter is always better off having a intense session of shooting. The only way to make it up is to modify damage on paper, which I think is not a good way of improve mechanism-related stuff. I think the slingshot rate equivalence cannot exceed melee attack rate as default. In other words, it should not shoot more than 2 ammo at a time. (However, changing the current half speed to normal melee speed equivalence is not considered as "change damage on paper", because it's returning its damage to default value.
 

In summary, I think your idea that shorter range causes higher damage (without increasing attack rate) is a valid solution to the problem I posted, but I don't like it for the reasons above. You said my suggested playstyle is not always preferred, which is true. But it's not a problem because it is preferred in majority of the cases.

First of all, I'm so sorry for any misunderstanding, english isn't my first language. If you look up "weapon spread" on Google images you'll find very good example of many video games shotgun's spread.

When it comes to pub, of course marble is precious, the best way to have a good stock of it is to hoard everything for yourself or only share with people that you can trust (which isn't many usually on pubs).

I did understand that you don't want your playstyle to be adopted in all circumstances, but the example that you chose were bad. I firmly believe that most people would just use your upgraded slingshot for fighting bosses that are not straight up more efficient with melee and then, after the fight is done, retrieve as much ammo as possible (if the cooldown on pickable ammo is still a thing). I see where you were going with Antlion but we're still talking about one of the easiest boss fight in the game, I don't think much people have problems with it if a little bit prepared, even on Walter.

You did say that my idea were too much damage and that you don't want Walter to be a high DPS character, you then procceed to calculate some numbers (That aren't precise at all.) that says that it does less dps than a simple melee weapon. Which one is it then ?

And yes, you need to ""constantly"" stay in danger for a nice DPS (actually you're still pretty safe, whip range isn't something to laught at, double the range of a melee weapon, that would make the slingshot be between the tail o' three cats and the alarming clock DPS wise if that range was its own weapon category to your eyes ). But, what is pretty cool about a "shotgun like slingshot" side grade, is, that you can carry the two slingshots for having alot of flexibility in your gameplay. Both being viable for any kind of situation. You'll be able to do pretty nice dps when you're in a comfortable situation during the fight, and a much safer but less rewarding one is still ready to use if you start to mess up.

I don't know what makes you think that your playstyle would be preferred in majority of the cases when, as I said earlier, I could just use the upgraded shotgun and rush to get as much ammo as possible after I killed my mob/boss. I really start to think that you didn't think through alot of many cases your idea could be exploited for safest gameplay and still being able to save ammo. My playstyle would make Walter way more flexible, rewarding with as little cheese as possible (won't be more efficient than what is already in the game).

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goatt    940
1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

You did say that my idea were too much damage and that you don't want Walter to be a high DPS character, you then procceed to calculate some numbers (That aren't precise at all.) that says that it does less dps than a simple melee weapon. Which one is it then ?

"Too much" is caused by a bad mechanism, namely, the attack speed equivalence is more than regularly attack speed. This is equivalence to giving Walter a 50% flat damage bonus, which doesn't make sense to the character. This was to shoot down your 3-bullet idea.

"less dps" was to point out without the 3-bullet idea, using slingshot in melee style naturally has reduced damage. The final damage will be less than melee weapons. Since this style of slingshot has the very much the same environment as melee attacks, but does less damage than the melee attack, there would be no reason to choose this type of slingshot.

 

2 hours ago, Rafi. said:

You'll be able to do pretty nice dps when you're in a comfortable situation during the fight

That "comfortable" situation would be more comfortable than melee if slingshot's starting shot is like whip's fast animation, but will actually be less comfortable than melee because its first slow shot. The dps would be nice, but not as good as melee. I can imagine it's not as comfortable as melee and deal less damage than melee. It would be a less desirable weapon than melee of same tier.

 

2 hours ago, Rafi. said:

I really start to think that you didn't think through alot of many cases your idea could be exploited for safest gameplay and still being able to save ammo.

The reason why people cannot escape the melee interactions is that there will be a lot of bounced off ammo, and it will take a while for Woby the Lazy Forager to pick them all up. If people figure out a way to exploit it through moving speed bonus or carefully chosen walking path, then those strategies are proof that Walters' play styles are affected by the change of reusable ammo. And it will provide gaming experience more than kiting and running. That by itself is a new interaction with bosses, besides possible melee encounters.

Your main argument is that people won't play the game as I imagined. Okay, I have no problem with that, they can come up different ideas to take advantage of this new reusable ammo mechanism. No matter how they do it, they have a play style different from melee, and have more interactions than pure ranged. This mechanism will be a trigger to a chain reaction that allow players' strategic creativity in dealing with different bosses.

 

2 hours ago, Rafi. said:

I see where you were going with Antlion but we're still talking about one of the easiest boss fight in the game, I don't think much people have problems with it if a little bit prepared, even on Walter.

Are you taking about preparing extra armor and healing, and not avoiding Walter's downside, and kill antlion the same way as other characters? I think we were talking about why melee weapons / close range shot guns were undesirable for antlion. The extra armor, healing, and Walter's downside is why. Insisting on choose that over a better ranged option seems illogical.

That easy boss (antlion) is a good demonstration of my point that close range slingshot can be replaced by melee weapon because they have same uncomfortable environment and less damage.

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Rafi.    636
16 hours ago, goatt said:

"Too much" is caused by a bad mechanism, namely, the attack speed equivalence is more than regularly attack speed. This is equivalence to giving Walter a 50% flat damage bonus, which doesn't make sense to the character. This was to shoot down your 3-bullet idea.

"less dps" was to point out without the 3-bullet idea, using slingshot in melee style naturally has reduced damage. The final damage will be less than melee weapons. Since this style of slingshot has the very much the same environment as melee attacks, but does less damage than the melee attack, there would be no reason to choose this type of slingshot.

I did say before that 3 shots were maybe too much and that 2 would be more than okay, that damage boost would only apply if you dare come closer to shoot, which feels in line with the character, especially lore wise since he doesn't seems to notice the danger that certain mobs are. and I don't know why you keep thinking that a closer range slingshot or whips are the same as melee, did you even used any whips at all ? The difference is huge. 

16 hours ago, goatt said:

That "comfortable" situation would be more comfortable than melee if slingshot's starting shot is like whip's fast animation, but will actually be less comfortable than melee because its first slow shot. The dps would be nice, but not as good as melee. I can imagine it's not as comfortable as melee and deal less damage than melee. It would be a less desirable weapon than melee of same tier.

The "slow" slingshot animation isn't as bad as you makes it looks like. Especially when you're not at melee range. Whip range is pretty comfortable, you should try it if you don't think so. (I assume you already did use whips in the past, but how can't you see the difference ? When used properly it makes any fight so much easier).

16 hours ago, goatt said:

The reason why people cannot escape the melee interactions is that there will be a lot of bounced off ammo, and it will take a while for Woby the Lazy Forager to pick them all up. If people figure out a way to exploit it through moving speed bonus or carefully chosen walking path, then those strategies are proof that Walters' play styles are affected by the change of reusable ammo. And it will provide gaming experience more than kiting and running. That by itself is a new interaction with bosses, besides possible melee encounters.

Your main argument is that people won't play the game as I imagined. Okay, I have no problem with that, they can come up different ideas to take advantage of this new reusable ammo mechanism. No matter how they do it, they have a play style different from melee, and have more interactions than pure ranged. This mechanism will be a trigger to a chain reaction that allow players' strategic creativity in dealing with different bosses.

Since you're talking about Lazy Forager, let's talk about it, anyone could just get a LF and wait for the mob/boss to drop dead, to get even more ammo as intended. And if it's as bouncy as the gif you sent a LF could pick that up in seconds. They can still escape the melee interaction. There's no problem with people not playing with how you intended, the problem is that it would make cheese even more rewarding, which is a problem that Klei wants to avoid (Multiple cheese strat fixed and AG fight changed are the proofs). People would indeed interact with your mechanic, but that don't mean that you changed his gameplay, especially during fights, you just give more incentive for people to hoard the loot even faster to get as much ammo back as possible. Talk about a gaming experience and a creative way to deal with different bosses.

16 hours ago, goatt said:

Are you taking about preparing extra armor and healing, and not avoiding Walter's downside, and kill antlion the same way as other characters? I think we were talking about why melee weapons / close range shot guns were undesirable for antlion. The extra armor, healing, and Walter's downside is why. Insisting on choose that over a better ranged option seems illogical.

That easy boss (antlion) is a good demonstration of my point that close range slingshot can be replaced by melee weapon because they have same uncomfortable environment and less damage.

I was talking about how for that fight, and Toadstool one, they were both very easy melee fights that even Walter should fight like that. And your "better weapon" would result in a fight looking as boring as that but double the dps and still being less effective than melee weapon. (sorry Grim, it's just how the fight is, your video is cool tho !) : 

Alot of times people would just end up letting the Antlion heal because there's no indicator about how far you need to get it to let her play her healing animation. So it would consume more ammo than if not having the choice to let her do that at all. Here melee can indeed replace my slingshot idea and it's only due to the boss not moving at all and the nature of her attacks. Which is pretty unique to her, the most similar fight would be Toadstool's one and even here, melee would be infinitely better than both our ideas (With my idea people could still do the fight just like in the video, but not having an almost free double dps going with it and the frustration of Woby not picking up any ammo during the fight because she can't get close enough because sand castles are a thing, seems that you forgot about it). Even during that fight one of your ideas would just not work at all. If I knew how to mod I would have been glad to try both our ideas and show you which one is the most reliable and fitting for having an impact on any Walter's gameplay and resolve the problem that you talked about in the first place.

I do enjoy the interest that you have to change Walter's gameplay but for me it just seems like you want a better slingshot and the other perks are a cover to make that feel fair, balanced and fun.

Edited by Rafi.
My response felt too harsh and felt bad. Point still stands tho

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goatt    940
5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

I don't know why you keep thinking that a closer range slingshot or whips are the same as melee

Because I main Wanda, I use Wanda to solo every boss and it usually costs very little armor. I'm very familiar with how whip's range is different from melee, which is not that different.

 

5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

The "slow" slingshot animation isn't as bad as you makes it looks like. Especially when you're not at melee range. Whip range is pretty comfortable, you should try it if you don't think so.

How "bad" is slingshot with whip range. Let's do math.

The slowest walking boss is deerclops, with walking speed of 3, all other bosses are 4 or more (excluding stationary ones and super slow ones).

Because we are talking about the first hit, so we need to look at the cast animation. I don't have code, so I had to record video and look at the animation in very slow motion. I discovered that the cast animation takes 0.9 second. That's enough to land 2 melee attacks. (Melee attack rate is 0.45s per attack including cast animation and backswing)

0.9 seconds is enough for a boss with movement of 3 to move 2.7, while range of whip is only 2.

 

5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

it would make cheese even more rewarding

I'm not sure exactly what cheese you are talking about.

 

5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

Toadstool

Have you fought toadstool with only torch and weapon? That's how I usually fight toadstool, with no axe or weather pain. And a slingshot is definitely much better weapon than melee in this case. Here is how to fight toad with torch and weapon.

 

5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

Antlion

I think it's better to fight antlion with Slingshot II as Walter, with or without ammo reuse.

And my attitude towards players who don't play as I planned is the same, that is it's their freedom and I don't care, and I don't think it's a flaw. Just like it's not a flaw of your shot gun suggestion if not all players want to use it.

 

5 hours ago, Rafi. said:

but for me it just seems like you want a better slingshot and the other perks are a cover to make that feel fair, balanced and fun.

To me, you seem to just want to win the argument. I mean, I can let you win if your argument is good. I always admit my mistakes and defeats in public arguments, here or on reddit. But your argument isn't really good, and your shot gun close range perk isn't really practical because of the slow animation.

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Rafi.    636
1 hour ago, goatt said:

Because I main Wanda, I use Wanda to solo every boss and it usually costs very little armor. I'm very familiar with how whip's range is different from melee, which is not that different.

 

How "bad" is slingshot with whip range. Let's do math.

The slowest walking boss is deerclops, with walking speed of 3, all other bosses are 4 or more (excluding stationary ones and super slow ones).

Because we are talking about the first hit, so we need to look at the cast animation. I don't have code, so I had to record video and look at the animation in very slow motion. I discovered that the cast animation takes 0.9 second. That's enough to land 2 melee attacks. (Melee attack rate is 0.45s per attack including cast animation and backswing)

0.9 seconds is enough for a boss with movement of 3 to move 2.7, while range of whip is only 2.

 

I'm not sure exactly what cheese you are talking about.

 

Have you fought toadstool with only torch and weapon? That's how I usually fight toadstool, with no axe or weather pain. And a slingshot is definitely much better weapon than melee in this case. Here is how to fight toad with torch and weapon.

 

I think it's better to fight antlion with Slingshot II as Walter, with or without ammo reuse.

And my attitude towards players who don't play as I planned is the same, that is it's their freedom and I don't care, and I don't think it's a flaw. Just like it's not a flaw of your shot gun suggestion if not all players want to use it.

 

To me, you seem to just want to win the argument. I mean, I can let you win if your argument is good. I always admit my mistakes and defeats in public arguments, here or on reddit. But your argument isn't really good, and your shot gun close range perk isn't really practical because of the slow animation.

I did play plenty of Wanda myself, and I guess that you just don't use it to its maximum potential.

Now, that's pretty funny that you chose Deerclops, it's the fifth boss with the most attack range in the game (behind CC Antlion,which can summon spikes from very far and two of the shadow pieces if we need to count them), by knowing that, my slingshot idea sounds bad, but even with the slow attack speed, it's not as bad as you let it think.

In a singleplayer case, a skilled player that can achieve 6 hits while kiting (I don't think it's consistant) can do 408 damage with a dark sword and 359.4 with a hambat (if it stayed constantly at peak freshness) after every kite. With my slingshot it would "only" do 306 since you can achieve 3 hits very constantly after each kite within whip range. So, in that case, we can all agree, that DPS wise melee would be more interesting since you still need to kite after all.

Where the slingshot would actually shines, is in a multiplayer case, for the simple reason that when a mob is attacking someone, you won't draw aggro if you use the slingshot.(That's a perk the classic slingshot has). And in that case, you just wouldn't have to kite at all, while being in whip range and then, making your DPS superior than a character without any damage modifier as long as you don't have aggro. That would synergize very well with Walter's no insanity aura perk. Due to the nature of needing to fight a boss with someone else, I don't think that it would be OP. Unlike your slingshot idea where you could achieve a way higher DPS than my slingshot in a singleplayer case without even being in range of Deerclops. (So that means that you would way more damage than most of the cast in almost every case. Which I thought, wasn't something you wanted for Walter.)

Here's a little video of me killing Deerclops with only using the slingshot at very close range (at some times I did stayed a bit further than whip's range because I misplaced myself but you can very constantly kite her at very close range as I did during most of the video). 

As long as you can have enough range you can cheese basically any bosses, the hardest one to do so would be CC and now AG at phase 2, for all the others, you can cheese them with mobs or structures, but staying at an enough range to shoot them, with your slingshot you would just make such gameplay even more rewarding, which isn't what Klei wants.

I did a long time ago, but I can still kick his butt anytime. I could record another video as similar to Guille's one with Wendy without Abigail or Wes and using only bugnets and torches if that's what would makes you realize that it's not that hard to achieve on such a boss, after some thinking, your option would be very very strong, because you could achieve similar DPS to "normal" melee weapon at range, but in no way that would be balanced. (Morning star would still take the cake in optimal condition, cheaper and faster than that is very hard to do without a Warly.).

I don't consider people using your ideas as not intended a flaw, not in every way, but the mostly used playstyle would be similar to what we have today (Something you seems to be against) with only the hoarding loot part added, no real incentive to go closer to a boss at anytime, which then makes it a flaw. And with Antlion you still need to kite even when ranged, I can assure you that melee even with hambat is way faster than your slingshot II. Not as safe because you'll have the entire space around Antlion to dodge the spikes, but that would then make you have way more DPS than Walter's basic slingshot right now, for basically free, besides the living log that isn't really something expensive while doing less DPS than just using a basic melee weapon such as a hambat.

Of course I want to win the argument, if Klei was reading everything here, and adding what they find, Walter would just gain a pure buff. And I don't stand for that. There's some ideas that I like and support, and somes that I don't. What makes me think that you actually made mistakes during all of that argument, is that the more we talked the less you find arguments about your ideas resolving your first problem, at first it was making Walter the ranged character interact more with mobs to not make them miss great content, and now you're defending an idea that would makes a very ranged playstyle even better and would makes you even less interact with said mobs/bosses. Which then, makes you actually valid my first point. About it being regular Walter but better and incite players even more to play fully ranged (I don't think I need to explain why it would be that way, already did numerous times before).

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goatt    940
1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

I could record another video as similar to Guille's one with Wendy without Abigail or Wes and using only bugnets and torches if that's what would makes you realize that it's not that hard to achieve on such a boss

You have take it deeply personal. You can't assume all the players will have the same skill level, and can always play the game optimally and carefully without mistakes. I can also kill any bosses with torch. But that doesn't mean anyone else can and should also do so. You have to anticipate how players would react in different situations, rather than "what i would look like in a perfect scenario?"

 

1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

I did play plenty of Wanda myself, and I guess that you just don't use it to its maximum potential.

I don't know what you mean. I don't get hit when I'm playing Wanda. Why does it have anything to do with its maximum potential.

 

1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

Where the slingshot would actually shines, is in a multiplayer case, for the simple reason that when a mob is attacking someone, you won't draw aggro if you use the slingshot.(That's a perk the classic slingshot has). And in that case, you just wouldn't have to kite at all, while being in whip range and then, making your DPS superior than a character without any damage modifier as long as you don't have aggro. That would synergize very well with Walter's no insanity aura perk. Due to the nature of needing to fight a boss with someone else, I don't think that it would be OP. Unlike your slingshot idea where you could achieve a way higher DPS than my slingshot in a singleplayer case without even being in range of Deerclops. (So that means that you would way more damage than most of the cast in almost every case. Which I thought, wasn't something you wanted for Walter.)

For the fifth time, Это уже пятый раз, 这已经是第五次我这样说了,esta es la quinta vez, I wanna respond with the same message: It's not a flaw of my suggestion. It's just how it goes. Players can deem what's best to do in different scenario. For example, while were beaver is good for chopping trees, it's not always preferred way to chop trees, but you cannot see that as a design flaw of were beaver.

 

1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

Not as safe because you'll have the entire space around Antlion to dodge the spikes, but that would then make you have way more DPS than Walter's basic slingshot right now, for basically free

Again, you are talking about best scenario. But have you actually tried it in public server in real scenario? Do you know how hard it is to dodge every attack in late stage when Antlion's hp is low? I've practice melee vs antlion obsessively, and I can tell you it's not easy. Just because you can do it in an optimal scenarios doesn't mean it's statistically true. Kiting outside sand castle is much much much safer in comparison. Because sand castle disappears every once a while, Woby will have the time to get into the circle and retrieve the ammo. Plus there will be no spikes inside the sand castles to hurt Woby, all the spikes are outside.

 

1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

but the mostly used playstyle would be similar to what we have today (Something you seems to be against) with only the hoarding loot part added

I don't understand what is "hoarding loot".

 

1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

Of course I want to win the argument

Well, I'm not interested in winning. I just wanna put the idea out there, get criticism of good quality, sparks new ideas, etc. Winning is very low-priority for me.

 

1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

What makes me think that you actually made mistakes during all of that argument, is that the more we talked the less you find arguments about your ideas resolving your first problem, at first it was making Walter the ranged character interact more with mobs to not make them miss great content, and now you're defending an idea that would makes a very ranged playstyle even better and would makes you even less interact with said mobs/bosses.

I imagination of the Slingshot battle hasn't changed. It goes like this

1. shoot from long distance

2. go near, Walter stall the boss (with or without attack him), while Woby retrieve ammo. Walter will most likely stand between Woby and the boss. (Apparently, not true for antlion, because Woby will be between Walter and Antlion).

3. go distant from the boss, repeat 1.

The description above has been the imagination of the battle all along. You have been arguing that not all players will go through step 2 and step 3, and I responded: "fine, it's their choice, it's not a flaw."

 

1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

Which then, makes you actually valid my first point. About it being regular Walter but better and incite players even more to play fully ranged

I see what you mean now. I need to clarify. Slingshot II has nothing to do with fixing the main problem posted by the op. The op had 2 parts, first part was about demonstrating the problem. The second part was about fixing Walter. While the second part wants to fix the problem posted in part one, it also fixed some problem completely irreverent to problem posted in part one. In short, you can completely ignore Slingshot II, if you only want to read my solution regarding the problem I posted.

I added Slingshot II just because I want to fix Walters' other problems too, as suggested by the title. I will edit the op to clarify so other people won't get confused.

Edit: I've added the change to the op: Low damage problem is a different problem of Slingshot, but not a problem regarding ranged weapon

 

1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

Now, that's pretty funny that you chose Deerclops, it's the fifth boss with the most attack range in the game

Nah, I chose deerclops to make you look good. Deerclops is the slowest, it only travels 2.7 distance, most bosses travel more than 3.5 distance, while whip range is only 2

Edited by goatt

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Rafi.    636
10 minutes ago, goatt said:

You have take it deeply personal. You can't assume all the players will have the same skill level, and can always play the game optimally and carefully without mistakes. I can also kill any bosses with torch. But that doesn't mean anyone else can and should also do so. You have to anticipate how players would react in different situations, rather than "what i would look like in a perfect scenario?"

Not really, it's just that you started in the first place saying that you could Toadstool only with torches and weapons, here a better ranged weapon wasn't needed at all, no axe/weather pains MT is something very easily achievable with a little bit of training, like everything in DST since your best bet to win against anything is knowledge. Skill on DST come with learning and practicing, anyone can achieve their goal on the game, not at the same pace tho.

32 minutes ago, goatt said:

I don't know what you mean. I don't get hit when I'm playing Wanda. Why does it have anything to do with its maximum potential.

By positioning yourself correctly you can do more damage in less time than without exploiting your maximum range, if you move at the same time as your target you can basically make it follows you, not being able to get closer to you, and you being at enough range to hit it, I would definitively be glad to show you with a video but I can't do it right now.

36 minutes ago, goatt said:

For the fifth time, Это уже пятый раз, 这已经是第五次我这样说了,esta es la quinta vez, I wanna respond with the same message: It's not a flaw of my suggestion. It's just how it goes. Players can deem what's best to do in different scenario. For example, while were beaver is good for chopping trees, it's not always preferred way to chop trees, but you cannot see that as a design flaw of were beaver.

Werebeaver is the best option avaiable in certain niche situation, when you don't have a Maxwell or Wurt or Bearger, when you have spice with Warly, when you want to avoid treeguards, it's nothing comparable with being able to do above average dps at range at all times. People technically have the choice, but will always pick the easiest one if it's always avaiable. Look at CK, 90% of the community only did it with purple gems and the pearl or full purple gems. The 10% not doing that are people looking for actual challenge. 

37 minutes ago, goatt said:

Again, you are talking about best scenario. But have you actually tried it in public server in real scenario? Do you know how hard it is to dodge every attack in late stage when Antlion's hp is low? I've practice melee vs antlion obsessively, and I can tell you it's not easy. Just because you can do it in an optimal scenarios doesn't mean it's statistically true. Kiting outside sand castle is much much much safer in comparison. Because sand castle disappears every once a while, Woby will have the time to get into the circle and retrieve the ammo. Plus there will be no spikes inside the sand castles to hurt Woby, all the spikes are outside.

What I meant is, when you use your slingshot II idea during such a fight, you have all space to dodge, there's no skill required beside pressing directional keys and compared to normal slingshot, you'll get a very good DPS, on melee it's a bit harder, but more rewarding and cheaper, not for a new player of course, but when you're new, you can't be as efficient as a skilled player, such knowledge of the game come with trying things, like doing the Antlion on melee, it could take time for anyone to achieve a no hit on Antlion, but it's not something random, the "best case scenario" isn't an actual thing, at one point, everyone willing to will do it. And why people would want to go train for the harder but more rewarding option ? Because that's actual good game design, of course you could cheese it or play fully ranged, but that doesn't have the same feeling than being able to do it efficiently with the "higher skill" option.

43 minutes ago, goatt said:

I don't understand what is "hoarding loot".

Jumping as fast on possible to pick up everything, that would happen with every Walter player trying to pick as much ammo as possible after the mob/boss is dead.

45 minutes ago, goatt said:

I'm not interested in winning. I just wanna put the idea out there, get criticism of good quality, sparks new ideas, etc. Winning is very low-priority for me.

Good for you then, when I do an argument, I just want to makes what I think is the right thing, understood to people and maybe make a change that way. Which is in my opinion, the way you win an argument.

46 minutes ago, goatt said:

I imagination of the Slingshot battle hasn't changed. It goes like this

1. shoot from long distance

2. go near, Walter stall the boss (with or without attack him), while Woby retrieve ammo. Walter will most likely stand between Woby and the boss. (Apparently, not true for antlion, because Woby will be between Walter and Antlion).

3. go distant from the boss, repeat 1.

The description above has been the imagination of the battle all along. You have been arguing that not all players will go through step 2 and step 3, and I responded: "fine, it's their choice, it's not a flaw."

You keep saying saying that like saving ammo is the biggest idea of the bunch that you had in the first post. What I mainly complain about is your slingshot II, making the game as easy as possible (The same way the alarming clock did, still in a safer for less DPS way). That idea here is okay, at best it's cool for pubs where some people start to act like animals when they see rare resources. But in the other cases, a okay flavor perk at best. Which is far from being as strong as Slingshot II being super powerful, at all times, at no real cost.

59 minutes ago, goatt said:

I see what you mean now. I need to clarify. Slingshot II has nothing to do with fixing the main problem posted by the op. The op had 2 parts, first part was about demonstrating the problem. The second part was about fixing Walter. While the second part wants to fix the problem posted in part one, it also fixed some problem completely irreverent to problem posted in part one. In short, you can completely ignore Slingshot II, if you only want to read my solution regarding the problem I posted.

If we don't count your idea, as I said just up here, your idea is at best, cool for pubs and in other cases an okay flavor perk, if that's what you feels Walter needs to solve the first problem, then okay, but ultimately, the people who don't know how to farm efficiently will be glad to have it, not like people who can make loads and loads of ammo without trying too hard. My idea is for everyone, and does indeed get better the stronger the player but doesn't let a part of the players only have another "funny gimmick" perk.

1 hour ago, goatt said:

Nah, I chose deerclops to make you look good. Deerclops is the slowest, it only travels 2.7 distance, most bosses travel more than 3 distance, even more than whip's range.

Pretty sure that Klaus is slower and Klaus is 2.7. If you wanted to makes me look good, Klaus would have been the perfect choice, Fuelweaver wouldn't have been too bad either, DF could have been done too. The movement speed of a mob isn't as important when it comes to compare such gameplay, attack range is what I would use but the best way is just trying the fights in condition.

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4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

Not really, it's just that you started in the first place saying that you could Toadstool only with torches and weapons, here a better ranged weapon wasn't needed at all, no axe/weather pains MT is something very easily achievable with a little bit of training, like everything in DST since your best bet to win against anything is knowledge.

Did you watched the video? The torch was used to burn the trees. And it will require melee players to stay deal with spore bombs between each period of tree spawning. A ranged weapon is better because you can attack toadstool across the pond, while keep it stuck for the time period. Getting it stuck is key in using torch.

 

4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

if you move at the same time as your target you can basically make it follows you, not being able to get closer to you, and you being at enough range to hit it, I would definitively be glad to show you with a video but I can't do it right now.

Please show me, if you can. Cuz I have no idea what you are talking about. At least you can't do it to every boss. For example, this strategy won't make a difference to fights against bee queen, antlion, crab king, cc, deerclops, bearger, maltraboss, etc, I think, because they either don't move or have a long attack range. I'll have to see when i see your demo.

 

4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

Jumping as fast on possible to pick up everything, that would happen with every Walter player trying to pick as much ammo as possible after the mob/boss is dead.

This is a balancing issue. You just have to adjust the disappearing time, so that there would be a time balance between fighting and recycling. The time doesn't have to be 2 min as I suggested, it can be something that's long enough so that Walter can have a good period of intensive shooting, and not too long so that Walters will have to recycle ammo at least twice or 3 times each epic battle. Balancing this is simple and easy.

 

4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

If we don't count your idea

Yeah, please don't count that idea. One is the biggest problem of ranged weapon, one is about low damage of slingshot, they are different topics.

 

4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

Pretty sure that Klaus is slower and Klaus is 2.7.

Klaus does kinda work if you exclude his dash attack in his second life. But it didn't defeat the second part of my argument. My arguments had 2 parts:

1. Math shows slingshot's starting animation will not finish before boss walking too close

2. If it works, close range slingshot is not as good as regular melee weapon, because of slingshot's slow cast animation.

You just showed me that Klaus, this particular boss cannot finish walking 2 distance (if you don't count the dash attack in stage 2) and slingshot can successfully fire, but you haven't show me it would be better or safer than melee for Walter.

Btw, I think Klaus attack range is 3, more than whip range.

 

I think this is a good point for me to stop exchanging opinions with you. I've explained everything, and I've seen your points. And all our chat history is open for everyone else to see and judge. I have nothing more to add. Thanks.

Edited by goatt

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