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Mysterious box    1946
4 hours ago, Memetan said:

This means that Merm King will last longer, I think. Can someone tell me how many days last Merm King compared to the non beta one? Is it now worth it to feed, or better leave him starve?

It's much better to feed him now his hunger lasts for 8 days which is over an hour when fully fed.

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HowlVoid    8661
7 hours ago, SinancoTheBest said:

I digress. WX shouldn't spawn with perfectly average 150 all stats. That is the part that makes 0 sense- what earthly reason or incentive is there to further increase its stats; for the minute benefits of slower digestion and sanity regen?  

100 stats would make a nice baseline to create 7 circuit combos where stat modules are actually incentivized and it gives WX a fun downside it needs: If you want to couple zooming speeds with permanent light or eliminate the weather challenge of a whole season, you need to sacrifice two of your stats (7 slots would allow you to fix one of your stats over the current 6 combos with lesser circuits). It makes for a nice, proper downside than a character that can just upgrade itself to perform better than most others.

 

You want to make stat modules an incentive... By lowering stats? That sounds like creating a problem to sell me the solution. The lowering of stats is the "least" fun of all dowsides, it's not even creative just a flat reduction. It means I have to eat more, take less damage before I have to heal more, I have to replenish more sanity before going insane. Webber already has a huge problem with the enlightened crown due to his low sanity at 100, I would need sanity modules just to use one of the best items in the game. I can already get speed and permanent light with the crown and it already feels worth it when I earn it. 

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Just think about some potential combos if these changes are implemented, they feel earned to me:

  • Optoelectronic + Acceleration 2.0 = Perma speed and night vision in exchange for 100 all stats. 

 

This can already be done with 6 slots? 

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  • Illumination + Acceleration 2.0 + Hardy 1.0/Gastro 1.0 = Perma speed and light + Hunger or HP back to 150. 

 

This is exactly what I meant by selling me back something that was taken. 1 slot makes no sense when lowering all other stats.

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  • Acceleration 2.0 + Dronemaster + Gastro 2.0 = 200 Hunger 150 Sanity 150 HP, speed, lower hunger drain, health and sanity regen 

 

Yup, more of the same. I don't even think I will ever use dronemaster tbh.

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  • Thermal + Dronemaster + Gastro 1.0 = Freezing immunity, 150 all stats, sanity and health regen. 

 

Unless I'm missing something but does this not only increase hunger? Dronemaster is pretty weak, I rather have thermal+speed+enlightened crown for speed, light, weather immunity, and still have higher stats.

Edit: I saw your dronemaster change, but that would require both your ideas being added and you're once again removing stats to add the solution of going out of your way to add stats back.

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  • Gastro 2.0 + Hardy 2.0 + Super-Processing + Hardy 1.0 = Pure stats build: 200 Hunger, 300 Health, 175 Sanity

 

So, closer to the old stats (only 1 is double), but now all you have is stats?

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  • Acceleration 2.0 + Acceleration 2.0 + Refrigerant = Uber speed and heat immunity in exchange for 100 all stats

 

The only one that sounds nice, unfortunately it would make the enlightened crown really hard to use and my hunger would be a pain to maintain, as well as healing, and restoring sanity. I rather have just one 25% speed and a thermal module, that still sounds great to me.

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  • Hardy 2.0 + Hardy 2.0 + Hardy 2.0 + Hardy 1.0 = pure Hp build, 600 HP in exchange for 100 HP and Sanity and opportunity cost of no extra speed/weather/light benefits

600hp isn't that useful, I have no abilities, the other stats become a pain to maintain.

Sorry, but you kind of proved my point with these examples. 

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HowlVoid    8661
54 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Yes. That is the entire point. Add a tradeoff to using those "Valuable perks", you now have to counterweigh them against having reasonable stat modifiers.

So now you've changed the reason for these changes. It's no longer to make them more desirable but rather to make the other circuits less desirable? 

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You could. But at that point why would you ever use the stat modules? 

I don't, maybe you don't, doesn't mean no one else will. If you're advocating these changes based of personal choices then that is the wrong way to approach balance. The modules exist already to fill a gap in case someone finds 150 in a stat lacking, 150 is the "average" amount in any given stat. That is why the stats are "average", but can go higher, it's literally common sense and you're only widening the gap to where it becomes a more obvious problem.

What's funny is further below in this exact same comment you talk about how my preference in the enlightment crown is unimportant (despite it being a viable replacement for a light circuit), yet here you want to account for my preference or lack there of.

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I suppose the "Modules supplement those who have the hard time with those stats" is fair. But I don't see how making them more important is a bad thing.

Because there is another way to make them more important, a buff.

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Why though? I don't consider myself particularly good at the game, so if I had low HP then I could see myself choosing HP boosts over, say, speed. But if I got better or was feeling more confident, then I could forsake stat boosts inorder to get night vision or better speed. Because that's how modular character systems are supposed to work. You have to constantly be weighing the cost and benefits of each perk.

In this case your shooting yourself in the foot because you already have a 50 HP module pre installed technically, plus extra in other stats. This right here is the definition of creating a problem for yourself and then finding an unecessary work around. The very scenario you're describing here is completely unaffected by the way stats work currently, want more hp? Cool, get more hp.

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Yes, That's how higher HP works

 

You misunderstood, I meant you would need to heal more often without any other hp modules installed. Having to eat more is something I can hardly call being creative.

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I mean you could, but does that solve the problem?

What problem? There is no problem, you're trying to create a problem that doesn't exist. You're creating a deficiency to compensate for the lack in personal preference for a stat boost. There is already a demand for anyone who wants more than the average; difficulty for the sake of difficulty.

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Tell me, how does lowering maximum stats make more forced choices? Constraint is the true driver of creativity after all.

By enforcing repetition to achieve the same result as was previously possible, but less so? Do you know what the definition of insanity is?

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Going off your previous posts, your mindset seems to be largely on "I like using the enlightened crown. This nerf would force me to use sanity circuits to use the enlightened crown". This is true, but tell me, what if someone doesn't like using the enlightened crown.

What if someone doesn't like stat boosts despite the lower overall stats? Now you've created ONLY a problem for those that can manage and made it more difficult for every other casual player. 

In terms of this kind of logic you created a bigger problem than I have.

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You like using the enlightened crown, meaning that you could stack sanity-boosting modules to be better at using the crown than most other characters. If we assume that the slot count increases to 7, per popular demand. Then you could, say, 

I can already use sanity boosting modules.

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Use 2 super-processing circuits, an electrocution circuit, and a hearty circuit.

Lol all you did here was add 50 HP compared to what's already possible, nothing "creative" resulted from this combination. 

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Now you've got 250 sanity (Same as Wickerbottom), are dealing retaliation damage to anyone who hurts you, and have an extra 50 HP.  You could also just replace those last 2 circuits with any circuits that have a combined cost of 3 slots. Such as a dronemaster circuit, a hearty module 2.0, a chorusbox circuit, ect.

I have 50 HP regardless in the current way Wx-78 performs. 

As for your second example, that is an unoptimized build that isn't specialized for anything. You only made a random assortment to try and sell your point and fill the seven slot requirement.

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And maybe a different player perfers to use, say, Slurtle Shells.

Nothing is stopping them from doing that now. Tanking requires no speed or sanity so building around your choice of armor is smart. I don't see your point tbh.

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In this case, they might not care about speed or HP, so they stack a pair of retaliation circuits and a dronemaster circuit so that they'll deal damage whenever they're attacked, and have a bit of regen to back them up.

Dronemaster... Doesn't that revolve around HP? In this scenario does the person care about hp or not? What.

You can stack 3 electrification circuits already and eating jelly beans is already far better than the dronemaster (if you even take damage). The dronemaster circuit is just bad.

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Again, constraint is the true driver of creativity, so by lowering WX's stats, you've given a lot more incentive to mix and match modules to however you like them.

None of your examples proved creative, every time you guys make examples it further proves my point. Most of the time you add HP to make up for the lack of HP.

Edited by HowlVoid
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6 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

im surpise that any crafting recipe asks for wires

Walter uses Melty Marbles as special ammo. So why wouldnt Wx-78 use Wires for an upgrade? Plus they are plentiful once you succeed to partially beat the ruins.

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HowlVoid    8661
1 hour ago, SinancoTheBest said:

And that is previsely where you're wrong. The beta WX, although much better than what we have in the main branch, has some fundamental problems:

Problem 1: WX isn’t unique enough. With the average 150 | 150 | 150 stats it’s basically a Wilson that can add effects onto itself.

Making it lower solves this... How? What does stats have to do with uniqueness? Should we increase and decrease all characters with a random number so they don't have the same arbitrary number and are then "unique"?

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Problem 2: WX doesn’t have any meaningful downsides. The wetness weakness is already at a sorry state but furthermore what WX offers is the average character experience + added permanent benefits with no interesting catch in return.

Then add one, this ain't it chief. Rusting until having to use a pickaxe on himself to move again and get to a dry location is "unique", could even get rocks out of it.

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Problem 3: Stat increasing circuits are practically meaningless. 150 all stats is a point where the advantages from raising stats has diminished a lot. The current design doesn't allow meaningful benefits from stat increases when compared to speedups, weather eliminations, or permanent light.

To you, maybe. Adding more hp, hunger, and sanity is meaningful whether you appreciate it or not.

Lots of people were impressed by 600hp maybe you should go back and read those comments?

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Perhaps you can't feel it personally but from a game design perspective

Yet all of your statement come from a preference perspective.

Where does "but people won't use it because they don't like it!" come from a game design? On top of being redundant but I feel like I've explained that so many times. From a game perspective it's redundant, hell from a mathematical perspective it's redundant.

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 WX doesn't offer a unique enough experience

And... Stats are gonna fix that?

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and isn't well tuned,

"Average" isn't well tuned? It's average.

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neither in comparison to other characters nor within its own toolkit.

His tool kit revolves around what a person will deem necessary just fine.

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For instance, the complaints about being 'superior wormwood' aren't too unjustified.

Never have his stats even come up in those discussions. I and ohan have made like 60% (or more) of those comments and we couldn't care about this. Literally never came up.

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And here's our simple solution to it: lower base stats to their DS level. 100 all. And add a new slot as compansation. This would adress to all the problems I listed,

 

You mean the problems that don't exist?

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through basic number tweaking. That was the singleplauer design of starting with low stats with room for expansion and it's more relevant than ever with the intended modular character design.

You yourself expressed how mere 50 decrease in each stat makes characters feel different.

Yeah, in a stupid nonsensical way. If requiring more animations in more frequent smaller bursts is different, then I guess so.

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And that's how a 'optional module character' is supposed to be built, making combinations feel different and desirable.

You just add an arbitrary deficit? How is that "different and desirable" gameplay?

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Deny it as you please but there aren't ample incentives to further increase your stats than the current 150 all, i

In you opinion you mean.

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n comparison to speed, light and weather, there is simply too much opportunity cost with so little reward. 

 

In your opinion.

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Furthermore there is no catch for the rewards, no uniqueness offered to the character for picking stats over perks and no considerations to make to gain these perks.

So your catch is, uh, play more eating animations?

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Your continuous outrage against how bad 100 stats WX would be is evidence enough to see that it'd be an effective change and an effective encouragement to use the stat modules.

Because it makes no sense. I feel like I'm telling someone that 1+1 is the same thing as 0 + 1 +1 +0 but worse for obvious reasons.

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Unlike what you keep insisting, there is no forcing of stat modules in the proposed scenario, they just have a good case going for them to compare and contrass between perks or higher stats: Balanced Options. If anything you are forced to make a certain choice in the current design since the opportunity cost of not picking powerful perks over stat increases from perfectly high stats is too great. That is a flawed design. 100-all stats would fix this by starting WX from a below-average position and bringing back the intended room for improvement and 7 slots to design this path to improvement, with the choice left to players weather to pick multiple strong perks but endure the weaker character experience, form a balanced combo of perks and stat increases or go ham with the stats.

In most case where there is an overflow of slots (usually 1) all you do is add a health module and I can't see how that's a "creative" new combination.

Here's another way to see it, he has 3 stat modules at all times and the current stat modules add to those three to increase them. What you're doing is removing three theoretical modules and then trying to justify that those same modules have now become more practical... Because... Now you'll want to add them back? It makes no sense at all. Lol it's, like, basic math.

Edited by HowlVoid
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RoughCactus69    406
3 hours ago, SinancoTheBest said:

And that is previsely where you're wrong. The beta WX, although much better than what we have in the main branch, has some fundamental problems:

Problem 1: WX isn’t unique enough. With the average 150 | 150 | 150 stats it’s basically a Wilson that can add effects onto itself.

Problem 2: WX doesn’t have any meaningful downsides. The wetness weakness is already at a sorry state but furthermore what WX offers is the average character experience + added permanent benefits with no interesting catch in return.

Problem 3: Stat increasing circuits are practically meaningless. 150 all stats is a point where the advantages from raising stats has diminished a lot. The current design doesn't allow meaningful benefits from stat increases when compared to speedups, weather eliminations, or permanent light.

lower base stats to their DS level. 100 all. And add a new slot as compansation. This would adress to all the problems I listed, through basic number tweaking. That was the singleplauer design of starting with low stats with room for expansion and it's more relevant than ever with the intended modular character design.

Your continuous outrage against how bad 100 stats WX would be is evidence enough to see that it'd be an effective change and an effective encouragement to use the stat modules. Unlike what you keep insisting, there is no forcing of stat modules in the proposed scenario, they just have a good case going for them to compare and contrass between perks or higher stats:

Problem #1: I disagree. I think he is plenty unique in his own way. This upgrade system is very special, and I think it's a great addition to WX.

Problem #2: I agree. It's such a meaningless downside it doesn't even matter. Give him another downside.

Problem #3: I agree. I think if you lowered his stats to 100 each it would make him a more robust unique character on his own. Giving people a reason to use the stat upgrades.

 

I also agree with everything you said below those problems.

 

Sincerely,

Cactus

 

Edited by RoughCactus69
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HowlVoid    8661

All we're gonna end up with is everyone running 2 speed modules and 1 thermal module. 

I really hope devs really think this through. 150 with 6 modules is itself a balance that revolves around healthy stats and your choice of strong perks/ or more stats. The stat boosting circuits will become even more obsolete. 

So many game, like monster hunter, where there is a choice between defensive and attack perks and newer player stack only attack perks. They want to emulate the speedrunners with nothing but attack perks and then blame everyone else when they die.

I hope Wortix players are ready to put in the work.

Edited by HowlVoid
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vorti    178

Has anyone else noticed that the "hold mouse button to cook more/feed the bird more/fill the flingo more" mechanic is broken?
If it's just me, I'll probably check it again tomorrow with a brand new world and no mods.

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I agree with lowering stats to 100 each. In my opinion, the reworked WX doesn't have a strong disadvantage to counter his perks. Having his stats decreased would make sense because designwise a DST character always has a perk to deal with a disadvantage. For example, Wigfrid can only eat meat but she actually has an easier time getting meat because she fights better. Similarly, WX would have lower stats but also he can make circuits to deal with this disadvantage. 

I think this would turn WX into one of the most flexible characters in the game. Beginner players could have their high stats while experienced ones could enjoy infinite light and speed at the price of lower stats, which I'm sure isn't that big of a deal for experienced players.

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ArubaroBeefalo    18115
10 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

All we're gonna end up with is everyone running 2 speed modules and 1 thermal module. 

I really hope devs really think this through. 150 with 6 modules is itself a balance that revolves around healthy stats and your choice of strong perks/ or more stats. The stat boosting circuits will become even more obsolete. 

So many game, like monster hunter, where there is a choice between defensive and attack perks and newer player stack only attack perks. They want to emulate the speedrunners with nothing but attack perks and then blame everyone else when they die.

I hope Wortix players are ready to put in the work.

they can have 100 on stats and the stats modules being buffed to be noticeable

but im more in the real downside team than just reducing stats or buffing each module but adding a downside like you suggested which should work pretty well as seen with woodie transformations

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HowlVoid    8661
13 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

they can have 100 on stats and the stats modules being buffed to be noticeable

but im more in the real downside team than just reducing stats or buffing each module but adding a downside like you suggested which should work pretty well as seen with woodie transformations

On paper you'd hope this would bring attention to the stat buffs. In practice it never works out that way. 

I've never seen it work in practice.

I'm not against a good dowside and more slots. It that the practice of lowering stats to make stats more practical will have no effect. People will want more power.

Edited by HowlVoid
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Copyafriend    621
7 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

The point is to force players to make a choice due to an obvious lack of stats?

Yes.

The point is to provide a meaningful downside, 100 of all stats is a fairly bad downside, and you’re admitting it by arguing so strongly against it.

personally id want 8 slots if we only has 100 of each stat. 33% less stats, 33% more circuits. Maybe even 9 so we can just get back to where we were. Id also like if the hunger and sanity circuits were buffed to 100 each to reflect the change.

its not an illusion of choice, its giving you a meaningful one. You are literally admitting that you would never upgrade your health or hunger at all because you can manage fine without it. Well what if you couldnt. What if you were weaker than the average character (which is literally the original theme of wx) until you upgraded yourself. Wx got buffed when he came to together, well then he’d be back to default. You’re literally saying you hate the idea because you dont want to put stat buffs and feel like that change might force you to. It’s inconvenient to have 100 hunger, solve your inconvenience or deal with it. 
 

you’re free to disagree of course, i can understand why youd dislike that change. Simultaneously you fully understand it. It presents obstacles to try to force you away from just putting 3 speed or optoelectronic, or thermal and nothing else. If you can deal with the obstacles then do so. 100 health isnt even all that low, 100 sanity could be considered a boon, as sanity is a bar to manipulate not to maintain. Hunger is annoying but we could also just do lower health and sanity and keep hunger where it is. Or not because wx literally already has perks to help deal with hunger so it could still be easier to handle than the average character.

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HowlVoid    8661
3 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

 

No idea how you came to those conclusions.

I think it's a meaningless change, I hate it because It's a meaningless change that's redundant and adds nothing.

I will not buff my stats wether they are 150 or 100, I will most likely have 2 speed modules and 1 thermal module like everyone else with a max slot of 7.

100 In health is unimportant, however in many combinations you're adding a hardy module back due to a 1 slot overflow. Thus gaining nothing but a net loss, my displeasure comes from a net loss for literally no reason. You've gained nothing. I will have 2 speed modules and 1 thermal.

100 in hunger is unimportant, it will cause you to eat more often in shorter bursts. Despite this I will still chose the 2 speed modules and 1 thermal module. Food is useful to Wx-78 long after it has gone stale.

100 in sanity will just make the enlightened crown harder to use. Despite this, I will still use 2 speed modules and 1 thermal module. 

On the times I don't want thermal I will chose a speed module, night vision, and... A hardy module because literally nothing else fits with one slot. I gained nothing and instead lost 100 in combined stats. People who advocate for this can't do basic math apparently. Under no circumstances are base stats comparable to other circuits, you're only shooting yourself in the foot. In a 6 slot setting I would still use 1 speed and 1 thermal, and again one hardy because nothing else fits (otherwise I would choose a one slot hunger). 

Stats boost have remained obsolete except for the time nothing else fits (the one slot). The problem is in the fundamental way the stat boost work, aka they're lackluster. Reducing stats does not accomplish the goal of making them more desirable because, wow, now you have one extra slot where you can put in the other powerful stuff you're supposedly trying to decentivize. Lowering stats for the gain of slots will backfire with the supposed effect it's trying to achieve. 

You understood nothing. 

Though you gave me insight that a lot of people have failed at the most basic use of common sense.

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Copyafriend    621
52 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You understood nothing. 

Though you gave me insight that a lot of people have failed at the most basic use of common sense.

Bro i fully understand every argument you’ve made. Im not stupid.

you’re just being really really rude here for no reason. 
 

I am well aware its a net negative. I think its a good net negative because its not that impactful just like you said. Trying to make people make concessions on what stats they want is inherently interesting to me. When im fighting deerclops if i had a slot left over id rather have 150 sanity than health. If its uninteresting to you, then thats fine. But thats no real reason to be so mean for no reason whatsoever.

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sunny91    48
4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

they can have 100 on stats and the stats modules being buffed to be noticeable

Yes. 1 HP module give 125 HP and takes only 1 slot.

sanity also take only 1 slot.

hunger take 2 slot, with increase capacity + lowered drain rate.

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

personally id want 8 slots if we only has 100 of each stat. 33% less stats, 33% more circuits. Maybe even 9

Or just let them all modules take up lower number of slots.

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile in the constant.

20 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

100 base stats across the board is beyond horrible.

A stomach of 1 day-ish? If you want that then maybe play Wes. 

The 100 base stats was because he could upgrade, and now he can't. Doesn't even make sense.

You lose the equivalent of 3 lesser modules for one extra slot? What's more with a large amount of desirable combinations all you can then IS add back in 50hp lmao with 7 slots. Makes 0 sense.

 

4 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

I'm not against a good dowside and more slots.

 

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

When someone takes my words and twists them around to mean something I don't mean it disturbs me.

 

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

I do apologize

 

Edited by sunny91

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HowlVoid    8661
40 minutes ago, sunny91 said:

Yes. 1 HP module give 125 HP and takes only 1 slot.

sanity also take only 1 slot.

hunger take 2 slot, with increase capacity + lowered drain rate.

Or just let them all modules take up lower number of slots.

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile in the constant.

 

 

 

 

I don't understand what you're trying to imply here.

I don't like having 100 base stats for 1 slot because of the net loss.

I don't consider the net loss a good dowside for 1 max increased slots. (Not a good trade off).

I apologized for speaking to him rudely but I did not change my mind about any of my opinions. 

He claimed I thought the downside was was important given my reactions. My reactions where due to the lack of importance because it all amounted to nothing given what it was trying to achieve, aka make stat modules more practical.

If you wanted my attention, you have it.

Would you rather we remained bickering? Would you rather both parties become toxic? Are you trying to shame me for apologizing, is that your idea? Because that would make a greater problem than both of us if apologies are grounds for shaming a person. 

@sunny91

 

Edited by HowlVoid
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sunny91    48
8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I don't consider the net loss a good dowside for 1 max increased slots. (Not a good trade off).

WX Internal Conflict.

It is good down side( a bad thing) (as its not a good trade). You could argue for +2 slots.

Are we trading with devs? buffs and nerfs?

Edited by sunny91
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