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Getting new CPU - will this make a big enough difference for ONI?

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gabberworld    413
2 hours ago, cpy said:

Userbenchmark? More like loserbenchmark! I wouldn't trust a single number from those intel shills.

 

Usualy people who you see in youtube they not use cheap memory modules as they to have money. Soo if you relay at that info only. You may be disapointed. Also usualy first info comes from them to the bensmarks aswell.

Our bensmark is not sponsored by intel.

And it shows wery good results from 5800x aswell. And if you overclock correctly you may hit 100 limit.

We can talk about factorio but thing is that this game supports multithread. ONI main code still runs only 1 core

 

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Saturnus    3893
2 hours ago, gabberworld said:

We can talk about factorio but thing is that this game supports multithread.

No. There's a very long thread on the Factorio forum on the topic. After the latest performance upgrade which significantly improved performance this was the conclusion:

Quote

Factorio is primarily single threaded, so it's basically never going to use a significant percentage of your CPU, and it's engine is very different from most other games so the bottlenecks are usually in different spots. Some tasks are limited by memory bandwidth, rather than CPU speed or RAM size, which task manager isn't going to show.

Like ONI, the main CPU usage on Factorio is running the same calculations over and over again, and the faster you can move the data into the CPU the better. The best is to have lots of L2 cache, second best is lots of L3 cache, after that effective memory transfer speed (which is not the same as just the memory clock speed or bandwidth), and bottom of the list of things that matter is CPU clock speed, or really executions per second.

Edited by Saturnus
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cpy    719

TLDR: factorio is optimized so much that CPU is fed lots of simple calculations instead of smaller number of complex calculation, that's why lot of L2 L3 cache improves performance a lot and RAM speed also increases peformance by more than 30%! Yeah the only game that RAM speeds can go beyond 30% or maybe even 45%+ just from ram speed upgrade.

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Saturnus    3893
1 hour ago, cpy said:

TLDR: factorio is optimized so much that CPU is fed lots of simple calculations instead of smaller number of complex calculation, that's why lot of L2 L3 cache improves performance a lot and RAM speed also increases peformance by more than 30%! Yeah the only game that RAM speeds can go beyond 30% or maybe even 45%+ just from ram speed upgrade.

Except tests shows that hypothesis is incorrect. 

Factorio.png

Note: All tests with Ryzen CPUs are done with the exact same DDR4-3200 as used for the DDR4 test with the12900K.
Also note how going from DDR4-3200 to the most premium DDR5-6400 currently available does almost nothing compared to the incredibly massive jump the extra 64MB L3 cache on the 5800X3D gives.

Edited by Saturnus
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gabberworld    413
4 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Except tests shows that hypothesis is incorrect. 

Factorio.png

Note: All tests with Ryzen CPUs are done with the exact same DDR4-3200 as used for the DDR4 test with the12900K.
Also note how going from DDR4-3200 to the most premium DDR5-6400 currently available does almost nothing compared to the incredibly massive jump the extra 64MB L3 cache on the 5800X3D gives.

Thing is 6400 dotsent nessesesary means its fast. C14,C15,C16 and soo on matters for speeds aswell. Those shows latency. Usualy smaller number means better latency it have.

Like it was in ddr3 was also in ddr4 that beggining memorys was not best. It may take years when we actually start see wery low latency memory.

Some titles yes 5800x3d is better than 5800x but allot statistic shows also that 5800x is better or performs same.

Both cpu intel and AMD have they + and -, in general intel 12 is still good but for some stuff AMD is better.

And by looking prices. Intel is cheaper.

Not sure if its worth pay extra 200 euros for get 5 fps more at some spesifig game titles.

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Saturnus    3893
7 hours ago, gabberworld said:

Thing is 6400 dotsent nessesesary means its fast. C14,C15,C16 and soo on matters for speeds aswell.

I see you still have literally no idea what you're talking about. DDR5 doesn't come in CL14, CL16, or anything near it.

As I wrote the used DDR5 memory is the most premium DDR5 memory money can buy at the moment. It's $550 for a 32GB kit and that's after a recent $120 price cut.

Edited by Saturnus
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Gurgel    3145
18 hours ago, cpy said:

 Yeah the only game that RAM speeds can go beyond 30% or maybe even 45%+ just from ram speed upgrade.

 

16 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Except tests shows that hypothesis is incorrect. 

Relax. You are both correct. The thing is that the enormous L3 size of the 5800X3D means things run entirely in cache that otherwise would not. For Factorio the extreme stream processing done means that entire parts of the game data will now reside completely in cache and also fully benefit from the inter-cache burst transfers. 

Edited by Gurgel

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gabberworld    413
4 hours ago, Saturnus said:

I see you still have literally no idea what you're talking about. DDR5 doesn't come in CL14, CL16, or anything near it.

As I wrote the used DDR5 memory is the most premium DDR5 memory money can buy at the moment. It's $550 for a 32GB kit and that's after a recent $120 price cut.

Soo you say if user have alreay 5800x and then he buy yourself 5800x3d then its good idea?

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Saturnus    3893
31 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

Soo you say if user have alreay 5800x and then he buy yourself 5800x3d then its good idea?

That entirely depends on your perspective and what you want to achieve but even for many 5800X owners it's actually worth considering. If you do it now and don't wait too long. That's because right now you can get about $250 for the 5800X on the second hand market, so the net cost of the upgrade is $200. If you mainly play the type of games that benefits from the 3D V-cache like ONI, Factorio, Age of Empires, Civ6 and so on then paying $200 for 28% performance uplift on average is actually incredibly cheap. People routinely spend far more than that for less performance upgrade. The longer you wait the more the used price on your 5800X will drop making it a less attractive option.

If on the other hand you're satisfied with what you got and don't have $200 to spend on upgrading your gaming system then it's obviously not a good idea.

Edited by Saturnus

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cpy    719
15 hours ago, gabberworld said:

Thing is 6400 dotsent nessesesary means its fast. C14,C15,C16 and soo on matters for speeds aswell. Those shows latency. Usualy smaller number means better latency it have.

Like it was in ddr3 was also in ddr4 that beggining memorys was not best. It may take years when we actually start see wery low latency memory.

Some titles yes 5800x3d is better than 5800x but allot statistic shows also that 5800x is better or performs same.

Both cpu intel and AMD have they + and -, in general intel 12 is still good but for some stuff AMD is better.

And by looking prices. Intel is cheaper.

Not sure if its worth pay extra 200 euros for get 5 fps more at some spesifig game titles.

Just no! This is OLD test from like 2017 but i bet it's even more distinct today with more factorio optimizations. I can't benchmark it since I do NOT own set of fast ram that I could downclock.

https://imgur.com/a/JF1LR

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gabberworld    413
On 4/29/2022 at 11:06 PM, cOnSdOnG said:

Hey guys, not everyone here is rich and can afford expensive processors. :smile:

You can run this game kind off ok at intel 12-i3

That should be lowest price what you can get run ok the ONI at same or even better than 5800x. But i3 have not many cores soo you cant todo much other stuff at same time without loosing performance.

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friskens    0

Tis feels a bit wierd, I've been using the same water-cooled i5-2500k @ 4.9GHz base speed (turbo is off for obvious reasons) for the last 11 years, later cpu generations hasn't really had anything to offer over the i5-2500K. Yes I have a stupidly expensive motherboard with 4 memory sticks in 4 channels but the water-cooling is a stock "prefilled" system from cooler master bought 11 years ago and still keeps the cpu running at 10-15 degrees over room temp (that's 30-40 degrees C depending on the season). I mostly run single threaded games, Factorio, ONI and Dwarf Fortress being favos. Bought a i5-8760K  a couple of years back but returned it cause it only gave about 3-5 more eFPS in factorio while clocked to 4.9GHz base. As usual YMMV. Oh yeah I never turn the damn thing off either so it basically has been running for 10 years at that speed with some shorter off-times while I've been vacationing!

Edited by friskens
Spelling errors galore.

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gabberworld    413
10 hours ago, friskens said:

Tis feels a bit wierd, I've been using the same water-cooled i5-2500k @ 4.9GHz base speed (turbo is off for obvious reasons) for the last 11 years, later cpu generations hasn't really had anything to offer over the i5-2500K. Yes I have a stupidly expensive motherboard with 4 memory sticks in 4 channels but the water-cooling is a stock "prefilled" system from cooler master bought 11 years ago and still keeps the cpu running at 10-15 degrees over room temp (that's 30-40 degrees C depending on the season). I mostly run single threaded games, Factorio, ONI and Dwarf Fortress being favos. Bought a i5-8760K  a couple of years back but returned it cause it only gave about 3-5 more eFPS in factorio while clocked to 4.9GHz base. As usual YMMV. Oh yeah I never turn the damn thing off either so it basically has been running for 10 years at that speed with some shorter off-times while I've been vacationing!

you can play this game with very old pc but thing is that with new ones you can play longer aka bigger map more items and soo on. if you use to play like this then its ok.

 

 

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