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Wurtstool

Putting the "Uncompromising" in DST

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Wurtstool    254

This topic is more of a speculation on the overall design of DST rather than an argument of how DST should be designed. I am not here to argue how Klei should design their game as a disclaimer.

To kick things off, I personally believe that DST is meant to be a co-op roguelike game or veteran players and only a hard-as-balls co-op survival game for new players for a few reasons:

  1. The game is only a "uncompromising wilderness survival game" for new players coming in for the first time as they have to overcome the mechanics, crafting, and challenges DST can throw at then cause anything is possible in their minds. For veteran payers, they know what to expect; the only way you can die is that you did not prepare for it willingly in advance and this moves on to my next point.
  2. Even though the world is randomly generated, nothing is truly random. You know exactly what biomes are gonna be there, what set pieces are guaranteed in each biome, what time each season begins and ends, what happened in each of those seasons, and where to look for for food and resources, heck now people know exactly where the lunar isle is based on the mainland geography alone. The point is that survival becomes an afterthought for veteran players and the replay value lies on what you want to do when you enter the constant.
  3. Options are laid out. You can rush ruins, rush lunar, build base, take on an early raid boss, etc. and there are options in those options (for example, you can choose to take on a raid boss one way or another multiplied exponentially given your character choice). Every new "run" is different from the last based on what you want to do.
  4. You get to decide your "end goal". You wanna megabase, do all bosses, or even speed run death? The run is not over until you die or reset it yourself just like if there are "multiple endings".

And maybe this design is what breaths magic into DST and why people can rack up so many hours within the game, new players get to experience that uncompromising survival game and then after some experience they can transition it to a repayable roguelike game. Let me know whether or or not DST is more of a roguelike or you think that all survival games fit this category (or if I'm completely wrong, tell me why it isn't).     

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Echsrick    3326

dont starve realy is a game where you wish you could erase your knowlege of it, like, in a way to play it for the first time again kinda, you know? to like, have no idea what is what and all that, i only got an simmilar feeling of playing for the first time whit shipwreck and hamlet dlc, not knowing what to expect and all that

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Mike23Ua    14205
16 minutes ago, Falkenpelz said:

I agree with all of you, but I swear, if I hear "unCoMpRoMiSiNg SuRviVaL gAmE" in this forums one more time...

Why? The only reason it ever becomes “compromising” is because you learn what spawns where and what to go collect, where to go collect it, and when to craft/do it.

Lets bring up a wacky idea: What if.. Skitter Squid did not just come ashore & then go back into the ocean, but when they came ashore maybe some of them dig themselves down into land ANYWHERE Randomly within the World becoming Baby Tentacle, and eventually if not found Regular tentacle.

A Mechanic that SPIDERS in DST have, they spawn they build nests, their nests grow then eventually out pops a boss.

Not only does this give deeper lore to the game by literally explaining that Skittersquid are tentacles, but it ALSO makes when and WHERE you will encounter these tentacles from being restricted to any one particular biome (whilst at the same time making tentacle spikes as a weapon as a permanently renewable option.)

But, Imagine wandering onto Lunar Island and getting Smacked around by a Tentacle you weren’t expecting to BE there because your so used to them only being exclusively inside Marsh Biome.

Ladies and Gentleman I present onto you this:

the only reason this ever happened was my Lunar Biome ended up being an extension of my Swamp Biome.

I managed to actually get smacked around a bit by this tentacle prior to taking this video by the way simply because I wasn’t paying attention-

61096FCE-CB08-4581-941D-FA80E77E193E.thumb.png.904b93ab94b9e938fad42c92cbda2f5f.png

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DajeKotlyar    670

Ok, but when you learn everything in uncompromising mode it will become... comprising. This mod hard just because you don't know it. And sometimes just stupidly hard.

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Cloakingsumo198    1885

"Hey look buddy, I'm a gentlemen scientist. That means I solve problems, not problems like "what is uncompromising" cause that would fall into your purview of conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems, for instance: How am I gonna stop so mean mother Hubbard from tearing me a structually superfluous ice-box? The answer? Use a meatball, and if that don't work use more meatballs. Like this heavy single veggie, double egg, 1 meat combo designed by me. Built, by me. And you best hope... given to you..."

 

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Toros    2996

@Mike23Ua Tentacle spikes are already infinitely renewable because they drop from big tentacles.

Tentacles come from big tentacles, and presumably they are all from some impossibly large, uncountably limbed behemoth that lives under the constant.

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Mike23Ua    14205
34 minutes ago, Toros said:

@Mike23Ua Tentacle spikes are already infinitely renewable because they drop from big tentacles.

Tentacles come from big tentacles, and presumably they are all from some impossibly large, uncountably limbed behemoth that lives under the constant.

Was it ever revealed that all the tentacles/large tentacles are from some large monster under the constant or was that just fan made up lore?

Klei has shown they don’t mind a lore direction change so having Skittersquid dig into the ground could explain all the tentacles, and the large tentacles underground are just the few that dug even deeper into the ground.

plus: It allows tentacle spikes to be renewable in servers with surface shard only.

to me the only reason DST does NOT feel like an Uncompromising Game is because everything is always in the same biome.. 

Compare DST to Ark Survival Evolved: You could step out your house to get berries one day to feed your Dino’s and it’s a simple easy trip.. the next day: There could be a Thylacoleo, Raptor, T-Rex, Rock Golem or a freaking Elemental Alpha Dragon just outside your gate to further complicate that trip.

With Don’t Starve Together you never get that feeling, your never going to be pounced and mauled to death by a Catcoon while playing as Wortox outside of the one and only Biome Catcoon spawn within.

And it’s a game structure that was OKAY in 2013 but we are less then 12 Months away from 2023.. games change & they change ALOT over a span of 10 years.

The “Uncompromising” in DST just isn’t there because you become familiar with the biomes & what you’ll experience in those biomes: There’s Evidence in this within Klei’s newer content updates- No matter what Klei churned out: As long as it was restricted and contained into its own little biome, people knew when & what to expect.

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Copyafriend    550
1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

And it’s a game structure that was OKAY in 2013 but we are less then 12 Months away from 2023.. games change & they change ALOT over a span of 10 years.

The “Uncompromising” in DST just isn’t there because you become familiar with the biomes & what you’ll experience in those biomes: There’s Evidence in this within Klei’s newer content updates- No matter what Klei churned out: As long as it was restricted and contained into its own little biome, people knew when & what to expect.

No.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having biomes and having things stay in their respective biomes. By the way, if everything was everywhere, people would just expect everything to be there, and it would lose some of its charm. Tentacles have an argument, you could feasibly have new ones show up in places outside of the swamp, but then the swamp would be made less unique. Tentacles spikes aren't a great weapon, and theres no need to make them renewable, as they might as well be with the 100ish tentacles you will find in the average swamp. If you kill all the tentacles and want more, then maybe they can allow tentacles to respawn, but that might receive negative reactions over-all (I would certainly hate for an area I specifically cleared to suddenly have the threat return, let alone have a tentacle spawn in or around my base so that when im relaxing i end up attacked out of nowhere for 68 health by a random mob that hides) it would just be a nuisance, and not some great threat. DST is not ark, do not compare it to ark, there is no point because they are so wildly different. you know whats in a biome, but thats not a bad thing. it gives each biome a strong flavor, You see the grasslands and you know "no sticks there, but I should check for beefalo" no matter what you do people will know what to expect each playthrough. even in the most randomly generated games I know, I have some pretty strong expectations of what I'll find. But theres no reason to need to expect everything to be everywhere. If beefalo were everywhere, why would I go into the grasslands after I dig up the grass tufts? If tentacles were everywhere, what makes the swamp something other than an empty field with spiders and merms? Knowing what to expect when you enter an area is a good thing, they couldnt take that away without losing what makes each biome unique. don't water down the actual experience by spreading everything out.

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Mike23Ua    14205

Everything (aside from non-relocateable tentacle) you just described can be counter-pointed by Direct Player Intervention: Sure in a NEW World your only going find your Beefalo in Grassland- But what exactly is preventing people like me from Bell Bonding every single last one of them one by one and taking them to live down in a cave?

Whats preventing me from planting Twiggy Trees or Saplings in that same Grassland you don’t expect to find twigs within?

And if you join a world someone has been playing in long enough.. those are things you will genuinely encounter.

Whats preventing ANYONE (not just a Webber) from killing Tier 3 Spider nests grabbing the Egg and replacing it into a biome you generally don’t expect to find spiders on? (Cough cough pearls island)

Currently the ONLY time you experience these types of things is when someone moves and relocates and replants them in new areas.. but WHY???

Why can’t we have server options where choosing Random-Truly means Random?

Yes I am that jerk who bell bonds every Beefalo and puts them in the underground archives..

why?? Because I NOW CAN that’s why..

I should also point out Eye of Terror & Twins Of Terror now being portable boss summons that randomly pick a player on the server to makes night a living hell… 

Klei isn’t afraid to take the franchise in bold new “unpredictable” directions… so the things I say here have valid Merit..

It all depends on who actually wants to listen. :) 

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Baark0    1686

come up with your own challenges/restrictions, maybe a world where you can only eat mushrooms, base right where the dragonfly spawns. being a sandbox game the challenges you can do with this game are almost limitless. Here's one you can try: cave survival only. You can give yourself a couple of days to get some basic resources on the surface, but after that it's straight to the caves.

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SecretPizzaMan    1131
7 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

come up with your own challenges/restrictions, maybe a world where you can only eat mushrooms, base right where the dragonfly spawns. being a sandbox game the challenges you can do with this game are almost limitless. Here's one you can try: cave survival only. You can give yourself a couple of days to get some basic resources on the surface, but after that it's straight to the caves.

Also try a lights out world, it's really fun and not too challenging.

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Shosuko    5270

I think you describe the game well, and that's part of why the game is so great.  Bosses, monsters, and the elements can deal a significant amount of damage to you if you're not prepared.  The game is all about learning what "prepared" means.  When you first start you need to prepare for night, then your next meal, winter, deerclops, rain and lightning, summer, fire hounds, bearger and on.

These threats never get easier, you just know what to do to prepare for them.  Its a great game design because at any time when you slip and find yourself unprepared these things are still dangerous.  You didn't level up enough to ignore them like some rpg, you just had the right stuff going on.  So if you don't recognize beefalo are in heat and walk in there you can die very easily.

Part of that knowledge is skill based too.  For someone experienced in the game an ax and no armor is enough to fight some things, while someone newer and less experienced might need armors and stronger weapons.  Its great the way the game can present these options to us - when you fight dfly do you need a wall, pan flute, 17 football helmets and 30 perogies?  Or can you get by with just a pan flute?  Maybe you don't even need that.  There is a great range of skill involved in that fight alone, and I've existed at almost every range of it.  dfly never got easier, but what level of "prepared" I needed got smaller, and quicker so that now its pretty easy for me to make a move on her where before it would be considered "late game."

Now many players have gotten good enough at the game where they might feel the game is "too easy."  But that is the nature of a game based on "knowledge is power."  The only way for something to remain a threat in a battle of knowledge is if the answer doesn't exist...  If Klei started reacting to different strategies people use to "cheese" bosses eliminating options until only 1 remained the entire design of "knowledge is power" would be undone and we just wouldn't have the same game.

imo ~ that's the problem most people overlook when they request that something be more difficult.  Usually they just want the answers they disagree with removed so the problems have to be resolved in their sanctioned "official" way.  Or they just want random "kill you" stuff.  Either way, garbage dump of an idea really.

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Scrimbles    5014
8 hours ago, Falkenpelz said:

I agree with all of you, but I swear, if I hear "unCoMpRoMiSiNg SuRviVaL gAmE" in this forums one more time...

How dare people want more of the game they payed for and invested their time in grrrrrrrr

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Spirit Glow    180
3 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

How dare people want more of the game they payed for and invested their time in grrrrrrrr

The problem is that "uncompromising" is not only subjective but also very vague. Not to mention that its hard to balance around a single word that would also appease both new and veteran players. It adds very little to any actual discussion.

 

 

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Mike23Ua    14205
1 hour ago, Spirit Glow said:

The problem is that "uncompromising" is not only subjective but also very vague. Not to mention that its hard to balance around a single word that would also appease both new and veteran players. It adds very little to any actual discussion.

 

 

There is a server option for Endless, Wilderness & Survival- Each of these do different things, there are ALSO now server options for A Taste of Terraria world Gen presets.

Why must the game and its content cater to one particular audience or type of player? If I want to host worlds where meteorites can fall into any biome, why isn’t there an additional world toggle that does exactly that?

Building big huge map sprawling mega bases only appeal to SOME but not all types of players- Maybe I want unavoidable disaster that forces me to play in a different way “Recover & Rebuild” maybe I want floods to drown out land, earthquakes to cause landslides, Meteors to rain from the heavens into any biome.

Dont starve together only becomes compromising when Klei allows you to become familiar with what spawns where & when.

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bagherthegamer    916

You know, its fine to move on from games if they stop feeling magical after you beat them. I used to play minecraft all day but after speedruning the ender dragon with no armor in like 2 hours it stopped being magical to me. Its fine to stop playing the game.

Plus,dst isnt a survival game. It more like a try not to die game. And in my opinion, dst is at its best when you get out of a situation you clearly should have died to. 

And DST, compared to DS, is more like a roguelike boss fighting game. 

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ArubaroBeefalo    17493
5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

I think you describe the game well, and that's part of why the game is so great.  Bosses, monsters, and the elements can deal a significant amount of damage to you if you're not prepared.  The game is all about learning what "prepared" means.  When you first start you need to prepare for night, then your next meal, winter, deerclops, rain and lightning, summer, fire hounds, bearger and on.

These threats never get easier, you just know what to do to prepare for them.  Its a great game design because at any time when you slip and find yourself unprepared these things are still dangerous.  You didn't level up enough to ignore them like some rpg, you just had the right stuff going on.  So if you don't recognize beefalo are in heat and walk in there you can die very easily.

Part of that knowledge is skill based too.  For someone experienced in the game an ax and no armor is enough to fight some things, while someone newer and less experienced might need armors and stronger weapons.  Its great the way the game can present these options to us - when you fight dfly do you need a wall, pan flute, 17 football helmets and 30 perogies?  Or can you get by with just a pan flute?  Maybe you don't even need that.  There is a great range of skill involved in that fight alone, and I've existed at almost every range of it.  dfly never got easier, but what level of "prepared" I needed got smaller, and quicker so that now its pretty easy for me to make a move on her where before it would be considered "late game.

lately i dont enjoy rpg as much because of DST. I love the balance this game has, even with lategame gear, the bosses arent really much easier (instead of farming weak enemies until you can faceroll the enemy) or how we need to fight these bosses more than 1 time if we wanna keep playing the world

for that i kinda hate valheim, i was so hyped for a dst with rpg elemest but i found a lineal rpg (lineal boss system plus fake weapon choice which forces to craft the weapon with advantage against the next boss) with sand box elements

or in other rpg game you find in late game weak enemies (that you supposed to find in early) that drop useless crap after diying from 1 hit. Kinda like what happen in games la TES or kindom of amalur (is that hard to add "enemy level=player level + or - X"?)

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TheMelonNinja    225

The game's no longer uncompromising because everyone on the forums probably religiously plays this game. Of course a game isn't going to be difficult once you've sunk well over a thousand hours into it? That's relevant for every single video game out there, not just Don't Starve. If Klei were to add a bunch of new mechanics that make it """uncompromising""" again, it's going to take no time at all for these same players to learn everything again and for it to go back to being easy. 

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ArubaroBeefalo    17493
2 minutes ago, TheMelonNinja said:

The game's no longer uncompromising because everyone on the forums probably religiously plays this game. Of course a game isn't going to be difficult once you've sunk well over a thousand hours into it? That's relevant for every single video game out there, not just Don't Starve. If Klei were to add a bunch of new mechanics that make it """uncompromising""" again, it's going to take no time at all for these same players to learn everything again and for it to go back to being easy. 

ruins, terrorbeaks, dragonfly, scorpions from hamlet, swamp, fw, moonstorm, humid season and pig ruins from hamlet, cc, huracane season from sw, dragoons from sw, etc these are few examples were you can see how to add stuff that, even with a lot of practise and experience, can bring really messy situations if you make mistakes or still being interesting after many hours

meanwhile having the same winter at day 21 than at day +1000 only brings monotony because you only need to track your thermal stone or setting something on fire 1 time per day if you wear high isulation cloths. 

i think there is ways of making a game interesting even for very old players. I dont think anybody is that dumb to ask for the game to be more difficult forever but since the characters are becoming stronger (except wolf xd) wouldnt be a crazy thing to add complex things

one thing is being uneable of keeping always a high difficulty and other is just let everything as it is which is boring and more taking in count how much perks have characters in comparation with RoG (same map but way strongee characters)

but this doesnt mean that i think that the difficulty should be increased by day one with complex spiders or bosses and weather at day5. Noobs already have a lot of work ahead so would be better to add swamp like biomes so they can chose taking the risk or just ignore them until they are more prepared or new weather events and migratory mobs (configurable to make them happen earlier or later like everything else in the world settings), or different islands with different difficulty and loot.

We have a lot of useless biomes that are only visited 1 time at most (i have +1K worlds without reveling the whole surface and cave maps) so simply adding stuff there will make the game richer, sure we will get used to it but isnt the same getting used to 1 thing that getting used to 100, the variety will always break any routine since the more stuff they are adding is bringing a lot of different routes to follow which makes every experience a little more unique even when you already know the stuff. For example: i started a world with warly and decided to rush all the veggies and his buffs before doing any other content and, even when i have experience rwys farms for maaany hours, this world is feeling unique and fun or in other world i didnt cleaned the ruins in the 1st summer, since i had mag, few crown and a couple of starcallers from a ruins rush made with eye of terror mask, i decided to explore the sea (content that i already had experience maaany tomes) so that world was so fun because of how many different thing i did in early game

they can even add (idk the tecnicall implications) a random generated area as i said before or an island that sinks after few days and raise again in other place and with other shape and amount of loot

there are many ways of making the game more interesting

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TheMelonNinja    225
12 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Snip

There ARE ways of making the game more interesting, I'm not arguing that. All I'm saying is that the people who want the game to be "hard" again are just going to master the game like they did the first time and then we're back to square one. Let's say Klei did add a thousand new mechanics to Winter to make things more interesting. It's all swell and all, experiencing it for the first time, but if you're a hardcore player like most on the forums are, you're inevitably going to reach the same exact roadblock we've reached now where you've mastered all the new Winter mechanics and people go back to saying "nooo make the game uncompromising again ;(((". 

It's an intrinsic element to a video game. To make Don't Starve uncompromising again would only last so long until it's back to being compromising again. There's no changing that. People who only want the game to go back to being difficult are eventually just going to find it easy again after playing the new content for a while, which is all I'm saying. Once again, this isn't a DST exclusive issue. It's an issue with every video game ever.

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