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Is Wurt an abandoned character?

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ALCRD    976
3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You can put a variety of hats on your Merms to help easily identify them.. why do they need names again??

Question cause i never tried putting hats on any of the followers.

Do non combat hats lose durability over time when worn by mobs? (Like they normally would when worn by players)

Edited by ALCRD

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BezKa    3843
Just now, ALCRD said:

Question cause i never tried putting hats on any of the followers.

Do non combat hats lose durability over time when worn by mobs?

Hats that lose durability over time also lose it while worn by followers, at least that was the case last time I tried. 

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HowlVoid    6612

Wanda really set a high bar for me in terms of how a paid character should be. 

I just don't understand why there is such a large disparity between her and the other paid for characters.

Spoiler

Also obligatory buff the bramble husk and bramble traps please klei.

 

Edited by HowlVoid

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Mike23Ua    12851
4 minutes ago, ALCRD said:

Question cause i never tried putting hats on any of the followers.

Do non combat hats lose durability over time when worn by mobs? (Like they normally would when worn by players)

I honestly don’t really know, I haven’t played Wurt a lot in a long time.. I just know you used to could put them on your Merms (even the ones you don’t have actively Following you) and they will wear them even after they return to/come out of their Merm homes, I gave all of mine cute little Santa hats at Christmas time- I thought it was the most adorable thing ever.

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ArubaroBeefalo    14221
9 minutes ago, ALCRD said:

Question cause i never tried putting hats on any of the followers.

Do non combat hats lose durability over time when worn by mobs? (Like they normally would when worn by players)

the cloths are wasted at the regular time as far as i know but you can decorate your mobs with gardener hats, helmets if they wont fight, beekeeper hats, miner hats,slumpers...

edit: i wish klei change that for hats that wear by mobs dont affect survival

Edited by ArubaroBeefalo

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Shosuko    4280
2 hours ago, Toros said:

The reasoning behind “you can’t expect unpopular characters to get bugfix attention” is ignoring the fact that characters become less popular when they have bugs.

I believe Wanda has fantastic design from top to bottom, as does Wormwood.

Being designed poorly is very different from claiming "paid dlc $$$ character DOESN'T WORK AND IS BROKEN"  Which is what I'm calling out.

Nothing about Wurt makes her a higher priority for dev labor.  Her priority doesn't get boosted if people play her less and other characters more.  Klei doesn't have a business interest in boosting the popularity of less played characters.  I don't think her low play percentage is primarily due to bugs either - much of the cast has a low play percentage.  This can be due to having a more complex kit, more punishing early play, and more late game weighted rewards, or just because they don't like her personality.

Winona and Wurt are both together in having a more difficult early game, and a kit that only starts rewarding you late game.  Even with the RWYS update gardening is still complex enough that I don't think it has broad use.  But even using it meat is dropped from almost every mob in the game and delivered to you every few days via hounds.  Wurt's diet restriction and rivalry with pigs are probably bigger contributors to her low play percentage than any bugs, because before anyone tries to befriend a merm army they've got to survive a bit... and where do ppl like to base in pubs?  How quick do vegies get drained for meatballs?

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wanda really set a high bar for me in terms of how a paid character should be. 

I just don't understand why there is such a large disparity between her and the other paid for characters.

  Hide contents

Also obligatory buff the bramble husk and bramble traps please klei.

 

I mean - Every character has their own inspiration.  Whoever designed Wanda had a solid vision, and worked out a very thematic and mechanically sound kit.  She is also the most recent addition.  Looking back as far as Winona's last rework, and when Wurt was added, I'm not surprised at all.  Characters were designed at a much lower power point and with more disadvantages back then.  Which is why there is justification in asking for another pass.  The only problem is thinking because she was a paid$$$DLC character, or because she has a few bugs that she should cut in line and be treated as a broad game priority...  She isn't, sry.  But yeah, she does need another pass, as the others mentioned in this thread do.  Wurt, Walter, and Winona could all use another pass.

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Mike23Ua    12851
9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the cloths are wasted at the regular time as far as i know but you can decorate your mobs with gardener hats, helmets if they wont fight, beekeeper hats, miner hats,slumpers...

edit: i wish klei change that for hats that wear by mobs dont affect survival

I think it’s because they’re technically free inventory slots for hats. like you can hire an army and equip them in top hats, winter hats, football helms, Wigfrid helms, Mining Hats etc.. & when the Merm dies you could’ve used the item yourself.

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goblinball    653
14 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

So of course fixing Wurts Minor problems are low priority on Klei’s radar.

You say this like the bug that gave merm followers infinite loyalty didn’t just get patched. If wurt is a low priority, then why did this, a wurt-related bug people actually enjoyed, get patched?

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ArubaroBeefalo    14221
1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

I think it’s because they’re technically free inventory slots for hats. like you can hire an army and equip them in top hats, winter hats, football helms, Wigfrid helms, Mining Hats etc.. & when the Merm dies you could’ve used the item yourself.

maybe but at the end is a very unconfortable way of storing items when you can bring what you need, use chester/wovy if avaraible, bring the materials with you to craft a bunch of items when you reach your destination, etc

anyways, the most powerful thing you can do with that is carrying a bunch of head armor and that is something you can do right now since armor doesnt vanish over time

it has more wonderful uses for the sand box aspect than how it affects survival, so i think is worth changing it if isnt a high time consuming task for devs

 

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HowlVoid    6612

I am getting major deja'vu with something similar that happened with the pocket edition of don't starve and this is what Joe said:

"DS:PE got the QOL update rolled out today on iOS and will be coming to Android next. 

We didn't mention anything because with the way updates roll out on Apple there isn't a real good way to know when they will release. In addition - like I said in the roadmap before - we're working on updates and support for all our platforms and working to get them all in a better place as time and resources permit. We're not going to say "This game will never ever get an update again" because we don't know that to be true. We also don't have any announced plans to add additional content or updates, until we do. 

That being said, DS:PE has 4.4 stars on the appstore and 4.3 on android. It's not perfect, but it's certainly not the disaster you're making it out to be."

I imagine the stance on Wurt would be somewhat similar. They cant say yes or no, because they don't know if its a yes or no. They also can't project too far ahead due to needing to keep things in scope with what their current resources allows (they have multiple games). They also probably feel Wurt is in a playable state they feel comfortable in. 

Lol I don't know if that makes sense. Do with that what you will and take this with a grain of salt, I am not speaking in Joe's behalf. 

As Lankhish Monster said, if you want change you have to keep reminding Klei until they add it to their development cycle. That is the way things currently are and there is no way around it; wether you feel its unfair or not doesn't matter, its how things are. 

 

21 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The only problem is thinking because she was a paid$$$DLC character, or because she has a few bugs that she should cut in line and be treated as a broad game priority...  She isn't, sry.  

You can't decide how people decide to think or feel. Its not uncommon for gamers to feel that anything that is paid for extra, on top of a game, should receive priority. You cant decide that for us or Klei.

Edited by HowlVoid
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Mike23Ua    12851
7 minutes ago, goblinball said:

You say this like the bug that gave merm followers infinite loyalty didn’t just get patched. If wurt is a low priority, then why did this, a wurt-related bug people actually enjoyed, get patched?

If you want an honest and logical answer? Because it was not a bug specifically tied to WURT almost any character could have used it (as anyone can hire Pigmen, Bunnymen, Rock Lobsters)

And people had already begun using the bug beyond just Wurts Merms..

Even WEBBER who’s followers never lose loyality will lose his follows transitioning between the surface & caves shard.

The most likely cause of WHY the bug was fixed has nothing to do with WURT at all.

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prettynuggets    459

the king buff is not really feel like a buff 
playing wurt solo yikes .. so hard to obtain gold cus trinket is useless for her 
some trash trading give kelp and some useless seeds 

only main perks of wurt if u have that ice bream and sunfish  and make a secret stash from other player by placing it behind tons of merm house
 

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Toros    2764
1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Being designed poorly is very different from claiming "paid dlc $$$ character DOESN'T WORK AND IS BROKEN"  Which is what I'm calling out.

Nothing about Wurt makes her a higher priority for dev labor.  Her priority doesn't get boosted if people play her less and other characters more.  Klei doesn't have a business interest in boosting the popularity of less played characters.  I don't think her low play percentage is primarily due to bugs either - much of the cast has a low play percentage.  This can be due to having a more complex kit, more punishing early play, and more late game weighted rewards, or just because they don't like her personality.

Winona and Wurt are both together in having a more difficult early game, and a kit that only starts rewarding you late game.  Even with the RWYS update gardening is still complex enough that I don't think it has broad use.  But even using it meat is dropped from almost every mob in the game and delivered to you every few days via hounds.  Wurt's diet restriction and rivalry with pigs are probably bigger contributors to her low play percentage than any bugs, because before anyone tries to befriend a merm army they've got to survive a bit... and where do ppl like to base in pubs?  How quick do vegies get drained for meatballs?

I mean - Every character has their own inspiration.  Whoever designed Wanda had a solid vision, and worked out a very thematic and mechanically sound kit.  She is also the most recent addition.  Looking back as far as Winona's last rework, and when Wurt was added, I'm not surprised at all.  Characters were designed at a much lower power point and with more disadvantages back then.  Which is why there is justification in asking for another pass.  The only problem is thinking because she was a paid$$$DLC character, or because she has a few bugs that she should cut in line and be treated as a broad game priority...  She isn't, sry.  But yeah, she does need another pass, as the others mentioned in this thread do.  Wurt, Walter, and Winona could all use another pass.

I don’t think you can really defend Winona and Wurt’s designs as just being due to the lower power point and with more disadvantages.

Wormwood inherently has a lower power point than other characters and a significant disadvantage but it doesn’t negatively affect the cohesiveness of his kit.

It’s true that characters are meant to be more complex now, but you can definitely see where they started with simple and powerful (or not), then feature bloat, and then with wanda and wormwood found the balance between complexity and cohesion.

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Spirit Glow    170

I just recently started playing Wurt and although interesting, I feel like she could use some changes. Merm King was a little underwhelming and could be better in my opinion. I was also surprised that he only had 200 hunger considering thats less that wurt herself when he is alive. I feel like she shouldnt have a bigger stomach than her king but maybe thats just me lol.

Also, not sure if this was intended or not but my merm followers do not defend me when i get attacked. Nor do they defend each other when one of them is attacked. Idk if pigs or bunnymen do the same but its just odd that merm followers don't react. They also will chop trees non-stop when i chop. Again, not sure if this is intended but they will continue to chop trees no matter how far away i get and will not stop XD.

As some ppl mentioned her clothes dont fit very well either and im sure there are some bugs i have yet to encounter.

 

Would be cute if her followers had names also hehe.

I will continue to play her some more but just wanted to give some input.

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Shosuko    4280
4 hours ago, goblinball said:

You say this like the bug that gave merm followers infinite loyalty didn’t just get patched. If wurt is a low priority, then why did this, a wurt-related bug people actually enjoyed, get patched?

I said this before about bug fixes, and this is almost more important than even whether something is high or low priority.  Some bugs are easy to reproduce, isolate, and solve in code.  Some are not.  A bug that takes less than a day to fix, test, and merge into an upcoming hotfix is going to get there whether its low priority or not.  I wonder if the bug with merm followers is in their ai, and that is a more complicated fix, more hard to reproduce, isolate, or solve.  As such its hard to justify possibly spending days or weeks working on it when it effects wurt only.

Meanwhile the bug where you got infinite loyalty by jumping between shards effected everyone, was easy to isolate, reproduce, and solve.  Not surprised it was handled quickly once it was made public.  idk how long this bug was known on the dl, it seems there is some secret cult of bug exploiters who utilize these bugs without divulging them to Klei.  idk, as a cheese lover myself I would always also report bugs but eh :\ 

4 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

You can't decide how people decide to think or feel. Its not uncommon for gamers to feel that anything that is paid for extra, on top of a game, should receive priority. You cant decide that for us or Klei.

Everything else was spot on - but this.  Nope.  This is a forum for community discussion.  Part of discussion is arguing counter points.  I have every right to speak an opinion contrary to another user, and they can speak in turn against mine.  I don't think there has been anything but civil discourse in this thread even with our disagreements.

My perspective on bug fixes comes from my own experience working as a software dev.  There is a time / dollar value and priority assigned to every new feature and bug fix, and a balancing act of keeping everything within budget, which is a consideration of roi as well as the reality that there are only so many devs, working so many hours, and we all want to see our families and have downtime.  I'm not imposing my ideals on Klei when I say that a bug that effects a small percentage of the userbase, that is hard to reproduce, isolate or fix is going to also be low priority and easily ignored in favor of fixing bugs that effect a broader segment of the userbase, and/or bugs that are easier to reproduce, isolate, and fix.

Edited by Shosuko
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HowlVoid    6612
45 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

My perspective on bug fixes comes from my own experience working as a software dev.

They are just that though, your subjective opinion.

Quote

  There is a time value and priority assigned to every new feature and bug fix, and a balancing act of keeping everything within budget.  I'm not imposing my ideals on Klei when I say that a bug that effects a small percentage of the userbase, that is hard to reproduce, isolate or fix is going to also be low priority and easily ignored in favor of fixing bugs that effect a broader segment of the userbase, and/or bugs that are easier to reproduce, isolate, and fix.

 The visual bugs are not hard to reproduce, the Merm king mechanic being broken is not a bug nor hard to reproduce, merm ai has been pointed out to being tricky to fix but it is not hard to reproduce. 

What I pointed out is that just because you may have a sound argument for why Wurt does not need dev attention does not mean that we cant ask them to giver her just that. I think that is a point that has gone over your head, you may be correct in your assessment of Klei not having the resources/it being a waste of resources, that does not mean people cant clamor for fixes at an inconvenient time when the final straw has broken the camels back. That's what happens when something is swept under the rug for two years, it comes back to bite you in the ass unexpectedly. 

At least that's what I'm getting from the angry Wurt mains. I paid for Wurt as well and after realizing that she has been swept under the rug for so long I got a little annoyed (I also want her buffed but that's a point for another day), and when emotions are involved people are going to be unreasonable. 

I am not too invested in Wurt so my interest is slowly waning though.

Edited by HowlVoid

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Toros    2764
47 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I said this before about bug fixes, and this is almost more important than even whether something is high or low priority.  Some bugs are easy to reproduce, isolate, and solve in code.  Some are not.  A bug that takes less than a day to fix, test, and merge into an upcoming hotfix is going to get there whether its low priority or not.  I wonder if the bug with merm followers is in their ai, and that is a more complicated fix, more hard to reproduce, isolate, or solve.  As such its hard to justify possibly spending days or weeks working on it when it effects wurt only.

Meanwhile the bug where you got infinite loyalty by jumping between shards effected everyone, was easy to isolate, reproduce, and solve.  Not surprised it was handled quickly once it was made public.  idk how long this bug was known on the dl, it seems there is some secret cult of bug exploiters who utilize these bugs without divulging them to Klei.  idk, as a cheese lover myself I would always also report bugs but eh :\ 

Everything else was spot on - but this.  Nope.  This is a forum for community discussion.  Part of discussion is arguing counter points.  I have every right to speak an opinion contrary to another user, and they can speak in turn against mine.  I don't think there has been anything but civil discourse in this thread even with our disagreements.

My perspective on bug fixes comes from my own experience working as a software dev.  There is a time / dollar value and priority assigned to every new feature and bug fix, and a balancing act of keeping everything within budget, which is a consideration of roi as well as the reality that there are only so many devs, working so many hours, and we all want to see our families and have downtime.  I'm not imposing my ideals on Klei when I say that a bug that effects a small percentage of the userbase, that is hard to reproduce, isolate or fix is going to also be low priority and easily ignored in favor of fixing bugs that effect a broader segment of the userbase, and/or bugs that are easier to reproduce, isolate, and fix.

I have a suspicion that fixing wurt’s hat issues would require more than just code changes.  If it required art to be redone and then every skin changed and rebuilt and tested that’s an easy low value to work ratio.

I do think that only going for low hanging fruit is a mistake though, and done for the sake of appearing productive.

Merms not finding their way home while pigs do shouldn’t be a very difficult bug to isolate unless their code is dramatically different.  Given their similar behaviors, it really shouldn’t be (but based on the other code I’ve seen, this is possible).

Part of the issue also could be that their more senior developers are working on newer titles and more junior staff who aren’t as familiar with the codebase will have different optimization when it comes to bugs.

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Shosuko    4280
37 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

What I pointed out is that just because you may have a sound argument for why Wurt does not need dev attention does not mean that we cant ask them to giver her just that.

None of that has gone over my head.  If I didn't respond to a point, its probably because I see that point as valid.  The complaints about Wurt's bugs, and her lack of kit cohesion are totally valid reasons to complain.  There are equally valid complaints for Winona and Walter though, and do not give me any reason to think Wurt should be higher priority.  If Wurt happens to get a fix first, great!  If not, wait in line.  Same with Walter and Winona.  I've played all 3 of these characters a lot as I like the theme they were each shooting for, and fell off playing them because of their shortcomings, and failure to satisfy the fantasy their theme inspired.  I don't care which gets done first, I'd like to see them all get done.

In fact - the main point I'm pushing back here is that saying Wurt being a paid$$$DLC character, or that her bugs are somehow super egregious, game breaking bugs, means she needs to be given priority.  She can be acquired with spools for free, and is pretty cheap as DLC goes.  Even if you spent $6 on her you don't deserve anything more from Klei then anyone else (ironically when companies do *seem* to prioritize paid / dlc content they're often assaulted for exactly that reason, and its been considered a point of integrity that Klei doesn't do that.)  Her bugs are actually pretty minor, as you can fully play the game with her imposed limitations and perks without much issue.  Its only building the merm army where you run into ai issues.  The amount of users who are married to playing Wurt is pretty low - even if that population would be bigger with a proper kit re-work, that doesn't bump her priority.  Go ahead and post your complaints and bug reports, just drop the entitlement.

Edited by Shosuko
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HowlVoid    6612
1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

None of that has gone over my head.  If I didn't respond to a point, its probably because I see that point as valid.  The complaints about Wurt's bugs, and her lack of kit cohesion are totally valid reasons to complain.  There are equally valid complaints for Winona and Walter though, and do not give me any reason to think Wurt should be higher priority.  If Wurt happens to get a fix first, great!  If not, wait in line.  Same with Walter and Winona.  I've played all 3 of these characters a lot as I like the theme they were each shooting for, and fell off playing them because of their shortcomings, and failure to satisfy the fantasy their theme inspired.  I don't care which gets done first, I'd like to see them all get done.

Right, so when something like that happens at one point one of those issues may gain traction and is going to be pushed more than the others. Of course there is going to be people who are biased, that's usually why it gains any traction in the first place (a strong centralized focus). You think the Wurt mains want Walter to be addressed too?

Quote

In fact - the main point I'm pushing back here is that saying Wurt being a paid$$$DLC character, or that her bugs are somehow super egregious, game breaking bugs, means she needs to be given priority.  She can be acquired with spools for free, and is pretty cheap as DLC goes.  Even if you spent $6 on her you don't deserve anything more from Klei then anyone else (ironically when companies do *seem* to prioritize paid / dlc content they're often assaulted for exactly that reason, and its been considered a point of integrity that Klei doesn't do that.)  Her bugs are actually pretty minor, as you can fully play the game with her imposed limitations and perks without much issue.  Its only building the merm army where you run into ai issues.  The amount of users who are married to playing Wurt is pretty low - even if that population would be bigger with a proper kit re-work, that doesn't bump her priority.  Go ahead and post your complaints and bug reports, just drop the entitlement.

What I'm trying to tell you is that trying to tell the biased Wurt mains to not be biased is not going to happen. 

If Walter gains traction will you tell them not to be biased?

When Winona gains traction are you going to tell them not to be biased?

At what point do we as a community ask for attention to an issue? When we are all holding hands and singing "Kumbaya, My lord" in perfect harmony? That doesn't happen very often. Not to mention that asking Klei to fix all issues simultaneously is asking for the impossible. 

An issue that greatly impacted Wurt was addressed and a small minority felt it. That minority happened to be a loud minority so it couldn't be helped that many Wurt comments were going to spring up. That isn't a BAD THING, as unified as some people are now, its a good time to ask for Wurt to get some attention and at the very least bring that attention to klei. 

Saying that because she is dlc and deserves priority is biased but it allows us rally behind a single issue. 

Now, if you feel that 6 dollars doesn't warrant this much attention, I'm afraid that's subjective. There is very little room to argue on that because it comes down to personal belief. I for one absolutely think 6 dollars warrants attention, most of the games I buy range from 10-15 dollars.

Of course there no reason why we can't be respectful when asking Klei to address this issue. Also Wurt is in a playable state so there is no reason to be distraught over it but asking for Klei to at some point prioritize Wurt is not unreasonable. 

Edited by HowlVoid
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Shosuko    4280
8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

What I'm trying to tell you is that trying to tell the biased Wurt mains to not be biased is not going to happen. 

I'm not telling them to not be biased, what I'm telling them is that their claim that Wurt being a paid$$$DLC character has no merit, and espousing such entitlement is off putting.  More likely to hurt their cause then help it.  What Laknish said about reporting bugs again to give them visibility doesn't require you rage at Klei, insult them, or demand their attention because you *possibly* spent a few dollars on a game.

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Of course there no reason why we can't be respectful when asking Klei to address this issue. Also Wurt is in a playable state so there is no reason to be distraught over it but asking for Klei to at some point prioritize Wurt is not unreasonable. 

shoot-man-thats-all-you-had-to-say.jpg

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Mike23Ua    12851

Sigh.. repeat it with me- The October QoL was added in as a “Bonus” additional QoL update- and the second actual scheduled Roadmapped QoL (the one Klei has been teasing as Substantial in size) has yet to happen. 

Now it’s possible this Roadmapped QoL has been pushed out of 2021 and into 2022 but what we know for certain: It’s still coming. Now rather or not it will address any of the things people are discussing in this thread has yet to be seen but: There’s still a QoL planned and coming.. 

With any luck: New world Gen options, fixing long lingering bugs, improving Ancient Guardian adding in several highly popular fan requested features (such as an unravel all duplicates button) and minor tweaks/touch ups to already reworked characters will be included in that update.

I’m probably hoping for way too much, but what I know for absolute certain: There’s another QoL coming, and I hope Wurt gets some love with that upcoming QoL.

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Shosuko    4280
33 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:
Quote

I'm not telling them to not be biased,

816278360_images(5).jpeg.af672068ee2daf01a92dbeae1c4110b4.jpeg

Maybe you should read my comments again, because I haven't said anything of the sort.

I've played Wurt quite a bit, as a standard survivor, as a merm lord, and as a seafaring pirate similar to what Toro said

9 hours ago, Toros said:

Imagine a wurt design that encouraged and embraced sailing around and ocean resources, instead of being split between “make a land based merm empire” and “I guess you can use 2 seasonal fish to stay warm or hot easily and eat raw kelp?”

and felt the same split in design.  I think visually her shark skin looks amazing as a pirate character, and even without a merm king or army (before wavey jones was introduced, when boat basing was fun) I found her pretty fun to play that way.

In general what @Toros said is pretty spot on.  Yeah, it sucks that these characters are all low priority right now.  Maybe Klei has their senior devs working on new features while their jr devs are digging through code they aren't as experienced with chasing bugs they didn't write which is always an uphill climb.  Maybe they were just catching low-hanging fruit when they patched the loyalty bug, and as aren't committed to deeper bugs like the merm ai.  But that goes to what @lakhnish said about reporting the bug again on their tracker.  You don't have to act entitled, or rude.  Its not high priority because you *might* have paid money for Wurt.  But if you report it again, the persistence is likely to pay off.  If you get traction that way then you will actually get something done, where posting about it here with insults and demands to Klei isn't likely to do much XD

Until they are done with their original pledge to refresh all the characters, I wouldn't expect Winona, Wurt, or Walter to get another pass.  That's what I mean when I say they are low priority, and none of them have priority over the others.  I don't see anywhere that Wurt is gaining any traction others aren't.

Edited by Shosuko

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