G315t

Tempshift Plates. Do I understand them correct?

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G315t    1

I just want to make sure, If I understand the way Tempshift Plates work  correct. 

They do not transfer heat to each other and do not exchange heat with buildings  correct? 

So there is no point to place them behind a building, to spread the temperature (for example of a heat generator in a Balm Lilly farm) But It would help If i place them next to the generator to spread out the heat faster/more even in the room. Right? 

There is also no point to place them next to each other, but its better to place them with a gap of 2 Tiles between them, because each of them will work for an 9 field big area with the plate in the center anyway. Right? 

 

 

Edited by G315t

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Steve8    323
17 minutes ago, G315t said:

There is also no point to place them next to each other, but its better to place them with a gap of 2 Tiles between them,

1 tile gap since each one interacts with all its surrounding tiles. Or as you said it's a 3x3 zone.

The most efficient is a checkerboard pattern

Placing them exactly behind a building or next to one doesn't make too much of a difference

Edited by Steve8
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Zerohayven    38

Tempshift plates interact with the environment only (gases,liquids,full_tile_solids).

Tempshift plates are considered their own building so they can't interact with other tempshift plates directly.

Tempshift plates are good for adding mass (weight) to locations with low mass available as tempshift plates contain 800kg per plate.

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Buildings can interact with the environment (which is governed by the TC of the environment/building) which in turn interacts with the tempshift plates (make a building out of a low TC material and sit it in a low TC environment will mean the heat removed from the building will be very slow and in some cases can even cause the building to overheat because the heat didn't leave the building to the environment fast enough).

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Thermal conductivity plays a heavy part of the game as (with the exception of high TC metals and diamonds) heat tends to transfer slowly from one side of a room to another. Temperature enters the tile next to it but the tile it enters is also exchanging heat with its own surroundings so you don't notice large amounts of heat exchange except in extreme cases

(You can put a heat source in one side of a room and heat that part of the room alot, but the other side will be cold and take a exceptional amount of time to heat up)

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Temp shift plates attempts to equalize the temperature of a 9 tile area in one instance while at the same tile gaining a increased TC boost from the equalization effect compared to normal tiles alone transfering heat so heat is moved faster over a distance with tempshift plates.

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There is alot more to this including mass, TC, element type, etc but the TL;DR is if your playing with heat and need it to spread out evenly in the environment, tempshift plates make a massive difference (and can make or break high heat generators like a aquatuner);

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G315t    1

Yes I am no expert at the game  but my first aquatuner (made of Gold) broke because it got to hot even while I was taking the heat away with a Steam Turbine. I then tried thempshift plates in the Aquatuner room to even out the temperature of the oil it was sitting in and the water/steam above and that helped a lot. SInce then my Aquatuner runs fine.

I just  used like 15 Tempsfhift plates in that small room and that cost me a huge amount of valuable ressources ( I had no diamond at that time but used refined gold)  So I was curious how exactly those work before I will use them somewhere else. 

The steam turbine runs at approx 25% of its max power as far as I can see, so does that mean I can use one steam turbine for like 3 or maybe 4 aquatuners? 

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Orzelek    65

Steam turbine needs steam at 200 to run at 100% with all 5 inlets uncovered. You can't get that with gold aquatuner since it will overheat.
You will need to upgrade it to steel.

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Steve8    323
On 9/4/2021 at 11:03 AM, G315t said:

I just  used like 15 Tempsfhift plates in that small room and that cost me a huge amount of valuable ressources ( I had no diamond at that time but used refined gold)  So I was curious how exactly those work before I will use them somewhere else. 

You don't need to go overboard like that. As noted they don't have to touch each other directly. So you don't have to fill every tile of the steam chamber with them.

Moreover, it's not necessarily a good idea to have a tempshift plate touch insulated tile as that will push heat into the tile. Not the end of the world though.

But yeah, a gold aquatuner won't be able to run full out. There are ways to make them work kind-of sort-of sometimes. If you need just a little bit of cooling they can be ok. But generally you need steel.

Edited by Steve8
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Zerohayven    38
1 hour ago, G315t said:

Yes I am no expert at the game  but my first aquatuner (made of Gold) broke because it got to hot even while I was taking the heat away with a Steam Turbine. I then tried thempshift plates in the Aquatuner room to even out the temperature of the oil it was sitting in and the water/steam above and that helped a lot. SInce then my Aquatuner runs fine.

I just  used like 15 Tempsfhift plates in that small room and that cost me a huge amount of valuable ressources ( I had no diamond at that time but used refined gold)  So I was curious how exactly those work before I will use them somewhere else. 

The steam turbine runs at approx 25% of its max power as far as I can see, so does that mean I can use one steam turbine for like 3 or maybe 4 aquatuners? 

If your coolant is water, salt water, brine, pwater the answer is no and your probably running on a razors edge being very close to overheating as is even with a ton of tempshift plates. (I wouldn't worry about power output as your working with a very thin margin of error atm)

Because of low TC rate the gold amalgum aquatuner has, it moves the heat that is generated to the steam far too slowly to add more aquatuners as more aquatuners will increase the overall temperature of the steam chamber (your steam turbine only deletes a certain amount heat  based of temperature per second)

Since gold amalgum has a very low TC (TC=2) and steam has a even lower TC (TC=0.184), the amount of heat transferred to the steam will be extremely slow (you'll notice the aquatuner's body being anywhere between 140'c-170+'c of variable temperature).

Best recommendation if you really need to add more aquatuners is:

*To add a small amount of crude oil or petrolium behind your aquatuner along with 2-3 tempshift plates (as crude oil/petrolium has a TC of "2" which is better than steams 0.184), but this simply gives you more leg room and the amount of steam turbines that you have might have to increase per gold amalgum aquatuner added in order to keep the chamber as cool as possible

*Or just straight up make 1200kg of steel for the aquatuner as steel has a +200'c bonus overheat (325'c combine) with the added effect of steel having a thermal conductivity of 54 (54 compared to 2 is a massive difference)

 

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G315t    1

So I maybe should use steel the next time I build an aquatuner. Right now the one I have is enough.

Yes it runs quite hot, but works fine so far.

I don't think I will send a Dupe on a suicide mission to actualy deconstruct that thing now.  And I don't have any steel. Don't know how to make it. :-D

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Zerohayven    38
1 hour ago, G315t said:

So I maybe should use steel the next time I build an aquatuner. Right now the one I have is enough.

Yes it runs quite hot, but works fine so far.

I don't think I will send a Dupe on a suicide mission to actualy deconstruct that thing now.  And I don't have any steel. Don't know how to make it. :-D

Steel is made using a kilm and a metal refinery (the refinery produces a massive amount of heat to it's piped coolant so keep it farm away from your farms)

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A premade steam chamber can be entered safely with atmo suits, jet suits, and lead suits (not face masks as that provides oxygen but no body protection).

To stop steam spreading everywhere you can make a crude oil liquid lock then break open the steam chamber.

To stop heat spreading everywhere you can make a double liquid lock (with the liquid lock closest to the steam being made of crude oil or petrolium) and have a vacuum between them both (the vacuum prevents heat from spreading between the 2 liquid locks).295587238_Screenshot(170).thumb.png.cacb15821d34070f7f9964a60752189b.png1438136315_Screenshot(172).thumb.png.0fc663b3022330586d40a9f548092f6e.png

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G315t    1

Ohh I have that metal refinery but never build that Klim thing :-D Maybe I should go and recheck all the buildings :-)

 

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Steve8    323

An easy to way to get some early steel is to take a large pool of water, pump up water into the refinery and dump the coolant right back into the pool. Since the refinery produces a large amount of heat this will heat up the pool, but for low volumes that's ok for some time. If you have access to a cool water source (like a cool slush geyser) use that. You can also move this setup into the oil biome once you have access to it. The heat doesn't matter there and oil has a much wider temperature range.

These are not permanent setups. Long term the best way is to use petroleum as a coolant and dump the heat into a steam turbine chamber. But since you'll want to put an aquatuner there while you're at it, you need some steel from elsewhere first

Edited by Steve8
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blakemw    163

The proper way to understand a Tempshift Plate is it's simply a 3x3 building. In terms of heat exchange it actually behaves identically to a Coal Generator (also a 3x3 building with 800 kg mass) when made of the same material. The only thing relatively unique about the tempshift plate is it only has a 1x1 blocking area (it's not totally unique, because the Steam Turbine has a 3x5 blocking area, but it's heat exchange area is 4x5).

A special property of all buildings (but not buildings that are tiles such as farm/hydroponic tile) is that they only have 1/5th the heat capacity of their materials, an 800 kg tempshift plate acts as only 160 kg of mass. Who knows why. This actually means that normal tiles, with 200 kg mass, buffer more heat than tempshift plates. If you want Tempshift plates for buffering heat, consider using a layer of igneous rock tiles with a few Tempshift plates to help get the heat in/out.

With Aquatuners, a Gold Amalgam Aquatuner which is immersed in petroleum for enhanced heat exchange and is running under a Steam Turbine with the exhaust water dripping directly on it, can run at around 90% uptime without overheating (this is a higher uptime than many players would expect), this 90% uptime can be achieved by using a Timer Sensor set to 9/1 or a Liquid Valve after the output set to 9000 g/s

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kbn    298
On 9/6/2021 at 12:38 AM, blakemw said:

With Aquatuners, a Gold Amalgam Aquatuner which is immersed in petroleum for enhanced heat exchange and is running under a Steam Turbine with the exhaust water dripping directly on it, can run at around 90% uptime without overheating (this is a higher uptime than many players would expect), this 90% uptime can be achieved by using a Timer Sensor set to 9/1 or a Liquid Valve after the output set to 9000 g/s


Yes I think that is correct.
And I further believe that the gold amalgam aquatuner in that condition can withstand 100% operation.

The heat generation of the aquatuner and the thermal destruction of the turbine are in a state of antagonism at a steam temperature of around 165℃.
 Heat generated by the aquatuner: 14°C * 10kg * 4.179 = 585.06 DTU/s 
 Thermal destruction of the turbine: (165°C-95°C) * 2kg * 4.179 = 585.06 DTU/s

This is a rough calculation of the heat value, so of course the temperature of the aquatuner, which is the heat source, will be higher than 165°C, and even higher than 175°C, which is the overheat temperature, but it is still OK.
The temperature of the aquatuner in the antagonistic state, where the steam temperature is around 165℃, will momentarily exceed the overheat temperature of 175℃ due to heat generation, but will be immediately cooled down by the water discharged from the turbine, dropping below 175℃ and canceling the overheat state.
In other words, overheating and overheating cancellation are repeated every second.
And this is important, because when the overheat condition is immediately cancelled, there seems to be no damage to the equipment.
In other words, overheating will occur, but it will be cancelled before it becomes damage, so the equipment will continue to operate at 100% without breaking. (The downside is that the overheat warning message keeps popping up in the upper left corner of the screen, which is annoying.

 

This is the setup I tested in my sandbox.

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Crude oil is 50kg per tile, for a total of 250kg.
Steam is 20kg per tile, for a total of 200kg.
Aqua tuner is gold amalgam.
Tempshift Plate is Iron. Diamond is the best choice, but we will use Iron to make sure that more mundane materials can be used.
The material for the walls and insulated pipes is insulation. Maximum insulation is used because if the heat from the steam escapes, the risk of overheating is reduced and the test is meaningless.

I lined up 10 copies of this setup and let them run continuously for more than 25 cycles.
As a result, all aquatuners were undamaged.

20210908160230_1.thumb.jpg.14f6df5bd64d13838f15fa91eed64cf0.jpg


Caution.
I am currently in an environment where I can only use very low performance computers.
Because of this, there is a possibility that something that would normally fail just happened to work.
In other words, I'm sorry if I'm wrong about anything.
 

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zach123b    180

you can also use wire bridges, pipe bridges, and conveyor bridges like tempshift plates just 1x3 instead of 3x3 and less thermal mass

more thermal mass makes it more stable and less spikey.  the higher thermal conductivity something has makes it transfer the heat faster.  granite tempshift plates are great for making an area more stable while a metal tempshift plate moves the heat faster

you can also use gold amalgam aquatuner without oil by making it work half duty by putting more automation on it or staggering the coolant by making it split or use the pipe bridge trick to make the line have 10kg every other section.  nothing wrong with using two gold amalgam aquatuners and having them work one split line of coolant

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blakemw    163
On 9/8/2021 at 9:19 AM, kbn said:


And I further believe that the gold amalgam aquatuner in that condition can withstand 100% operation.

Likely correct. Personally when I make a ST/GA-AQ setup, I always use self-cooling of the Steam Turbine so I'm not paying energy to cool the Steam Turbine, this means the exhaust water dripping on the AT is a bit hotter (closer to 99 C than 95 C) and that reduces the available cooling a little. I haven't successfully made a stable self-cooled Steam Turbine setup without throttling the AT at least a little. But I find it plausible that it works when not using self-cooling.

I wouldn't be surprised if the self-cooled Steam Turbine setup is superior in all regards, because even though the AT has a higher uptime when it cools the Steam Turbine, all of that additional uptime is going to cooling the Steam Turbine, so you get the same amount of external cooling, but pay more energy for it.

Edited by blakemw

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zach123b    180
4 hours ago, blakemw said:

Likely correct. Personally when I make a ST/GA-AQ setup, I always use self-cooling of the Steam Turbine so I'm not paying energy to cool the Steam Turbine, this means the exhaust water dripping on the AT is a bit hotter (closer to 99 C than 95 C) and that reduces the available cooling a little. I haven't successfully made a stable self-cooled Steam Turbine setup without throttling the AT at least a little. But I find it plausible that it works when not using self-cooling.

I wouldn't be surprised if the self-cooled Steam Turbine setup is superior in all regards, because even though the AT has a higher uptime when it cools the Steam Turbine, all of that additional uptime is going to cooling the Steam Turbine, so you get the same amount of external cooling, but pay more energy for it.

according to the wiki, a self cooled steam turbine can do 292kdtu/s which an aquatuner does 585kdtu/s with water.  so 2 self cooled steam turbines per 1 100% uptime aquatuner with water coolant.  but it would be very close to overheating

you can also add wheezeworts, in a separate room to add chill as the wheezeworts wilt at 95c.  they delete 12kdtu/s in hydrogen which to a steam turbine should, in theory, make it able to delete an additional 120kdtu/s as the steam turbine outputs 10% heat deleted + 4kdtu/s

Edited by zach123b
clarity

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blakemw    163

The maximum should be around 377 kDTU/s, which relates to an AT at 60% throughput, or 50% to have more head room (with another practical advantage of a 50% Aquatuner, being that circuits don't overload if they spend at most 1 second overloaded, with a 1 second cooloff, so an AT running at 1/1 won't by itself overload a 1k circuit nor push a 2k circuit under moderate load over the edge - something I tend to exploit a lot).

But I often do self-cooling with aux cooling. Basically if the temperature exceeds 99.8 C (temp sensors do allow fractions, they just don't display them) it lets some cooler coolant flow through the steam turbine room (this can be done in such a way that keeps the temperature at ~99 C by using circuits, easy way just emit a single liquid packet, if I'm lazy I AND a Timer Sensor with the Temp Sensor, if I'm not lazy I use an SR Latch, though either way the Steam Turbine can be kept in a temperature range from 99.7-99.9 C).

The self-cooling + aux cooling slightly increases complexity (if you have an AT anyway - obviously a merit of a self-cooled Steam Turbine for many builds is not needing any AT) but it offers several merits, first is if the AT runs full bore, the self-cooling still does the large majority of the steam turbine cooling, secondly, it allows running with zero head room and on too-hot steam, because rather than an overheating death spiral, it has the aux cooling. Thirdly, if the AT is even slightly under-utilized which is a common scenario, it becomes entirely self-cooled.

Edited by blakemw

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