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ZombieDupe    312

Griefing has been a big problem in the game at times when it happens and I never understood why there were no logical solutions implemented to prevent this. It has got to a point where I have heard people who host servers collectively keeping a list of people who grief to automatically ban them. What I have come to understand is that griefers in general may not even be malicious, they might do it just because they can and it's fun for them. In other words a "way to play the game" if you will. But there are clearly some behaviors that should be discouraged because it goes against the cooperative intent of the game. Anyone that does get attention from this can continue to do this precisely because they find the attention and chaos fun. Rolling back and kicking a player by vote only goes so far and it's making a situation worse at times when there was no intent to do so. Players can end up griefing unintentionally due to, for example, control conditioning from other games. Case in point a video, sponsored by Klei mind you, which to me shows how little Klei actually cares about this issue when they could very easily make it not an issue at all.

At 9:05 burns science machine accidentally without paying attention to the "light" option shown or the fact that they are holding a torch.

At 13:40 burns chest accidentally just without paying attention to the "light" option shown or the fact that they are holding a torch. Even funnier is the fact that the torch went out right after. Had he clicked a second later there would have been no second accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caI2iufOpvA


Despite how serious of a problem griefing is when it does happen and the fact that this can very easily happen by accident, there are only a few very specific ways you can actually grief in the game. This may not be the full list of them, but these are the most prominently potent ways and what very well can affect the game for people.

* Burn and/or hammer the base crops, structures or possibly items with a Torch or a Fire Staff.

* Light a creature on fire with a Torch, Fire Staff, Fire Dart or Scalemail when attacked, spreading the fire in places where you would never want to.

* Spawn tentacles as Wickerbottom with On Tentacles book in a base, portal or other special location of interest.

* Hammer a lightning rod if there is one and use End is Nigh as Wickerbottom to burn everything and kill everyone else around you with lightning.

* Place a spider nest in or close to a base structures or the spawn portal.

* Wall off the spawn location and anyone who doesn't know how to hold punch their way out will be stuck.


If these conditions were addressed in robust ways we would have the most prominent types of greifing gone, pretty much impossible to execute. Klei could use the code conditioning already set for shaving the beefalo (as you cannot shave one when a Beefalo is awake) when a player attempts to light something on fire that they very clearly should not, to prevent lighting something on fire under certain conditions. Additionally or alternatively there could be no action presented to do so at all, as was the case with stingers when they were first made flammable. There are very simple solutions to this that could be taken to mitigate these problems. Here are some examples.

* Make all flammable structures impossible to light on fire as a player. There is basically never a reason you would want to do this. The way the game is set, your life as a player matters less than the integrity of the base as reviving, even in its currently annoying and boring state, is less costly than repairing a portion of or the entirety of a decently sized base.

* Make all flammable structures repairable by some item from its crafting components so we don't have to hammer a burnt structure, collect remains, possibly hammer nearby structures that may be blocking placement and then use extra resources just so we can rebuild something in the same spot. It is extra-step tedium made for no reason whatsoever and it is annoying.

* Have some sort of checks in place so that a player cannot light something on fire, even a tree, which would spread further, period. This creates intent on lighting something on fire, even if oversimplified, to prevent potential chained fire griefing.

* tentacles from On Tentacles book if it's done on swamp turf. This creates explicit intent and can mitigate it to a large extent. Marsh turf could also be made impossible to place within a large radius of the portal.

* Planting spider eggs and effects from reading End is Nigh or On Tentacles should not execute in a decent radius of the portal, structures, or any "man-made" turf.

* While holding the hammer and pressing spacebar near a structure, have nothing happen. Require the player to click in order to execute it so this doesn't happen by accident or you hit the wrong structure in a bunch.

* All resources from a hammering a construction to be given back, there is no real reason to limit the resources given back as anyone who understands what is valuable in the game would never use a deconstruction staff on a structure anyway, but instead on certain rare items, which a hammer can't be used on at all.

 

There are a few other problematic instances that infuriate me and other players with experience in the game which some newer players or otherwise may be negligent about, but they are not inherently griefing so I won't be addressing them here (such as losing valuable items, which would reuire much more care to detail to address). However I would like to mention that lighting crops like berry bushes, grass, twigs, cacti, reeds etc can ultimately become devastating if enough players who join condition themselves to keep doing that for light or heat source as they play on a longer server because these things don't respawn in the world at all or to such a specific and small extent it is negligible to the damage this causes over time. I see biomes that should be full of grass, saplings and more that have nothing because stuff was burnt by a player who was freezing on servers and resources like pig skin completely depleted. How is this fair to anyone? Why are you letting people be able to do this? All it would take are simple mechanical changes that would make all the difference, so please take note of this!

I would even go as far as to say that lighting entire forests should not be possible to do in a multiplayer setting, it is better to have a controlled fire by burning trees one by one to get the charcoal. We could get charcoal by lighting logs on fire too if that was a possibility. The burning and other griefing type conditions are also something that can be updated over time when players encounter them (and we will), to make the system better, like was the case with Webber's rework as Klei added additional code through patches every time someone posted a problem about how Webber's spider mechanics needed extra conditions to work better. While on the subject matter, it would be good to have Webber's spiders exit the game with you and between shards, that is all that is needed to make the spider mechanics as they are done perfect.

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Baark0    982
1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

If you really care this much about griefing the best preventative measure is playing on a private server. 

Or use mods

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Baark0    982
33 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

 it's like the don't fight together servers which make a global announcement every single time someone lights anything on fire or picks up a boss drop

DFT servers are cringe, the only decent one is the forge one, and thats only cause it has pugnax and 12 player slots

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Cheggf    4223
1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

the don't fight together servers which make a global announcement every single time someone lights anything on fire or picks up a boss drop

Does it spam notifications if you keep dropping and picking up the boss drop repeatedly?

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Guille6785    1042
3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Does it spam notifications if you keep dropping and picking up the boss drop repeatedly?

haven't checked that but I got banned for holding down m2 while lighting some object on fire which caused multiple notifications to pop up lol

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ZombieDupe    312
22 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

**** no I have a lot of farm designs that require setting structures on fire

Exploit based farms should not exist, period. They defeat a lot of the game's challenges and any sense of triumph, not to mention turning the game into something it clearly shouldn't be. Better solution would be to make drops playing the game normally more rewarding wherever a player would have desired to make a farm for a specific resource. A good example of this could be the celestial champion dropping stacks of moonglass over the course of the fight, giving you the most reliable and fun method of getting lots of that resource. This way the game stays rewarding while being engaging, instead of whatever farm you've come up with.

22 hours ago, Baark0 said:

Making structures inflammable starts to tread into heavily moderated servers with mods that prevent you from basically doing anything if it could be perceived as griefing.

"inflammable" and "unable to light something" are two completely different things that you appear to be conflating here. A structure that a player can't light on fire can still be flammable, burnt by external factors like wildfires, I explained this with my example of early stinger changes!

22 hours ago, Baark0 said:

Personally having to confirm that I want to burn something kinda sounds immersion breaking. It really shouldn't be hard to figure out that holding a torch and right clicking an option that says "light" would cause a fire, and this doesn't stop griefing, since you'd just click again.

I don't think you understand many of the examples that I'm presenting here or ways in which they could be implemented. By a "check" I mean a coded condition which checks if there is certain other flammable entity near what you are trying to light for example. If so, the character will refuse to light a tree, like I specified with the awake beefalo shaving example. NOT that something that has already been lit on fire wouldn't spread if there are things it can spread the fire from. The purpose of this is to stop players themselves from causing devastating catastrophes for everyone with the click of a button. Or do you prefer the ability to light your own base on fire for no reason at all?

22 hours ago, Baark0 said:

If you manage to live long enough in a world to the point you run out of twigs/saplings/berries, then tough luck. Either make a new world and be more careful with your pyromaniac tendencies, or suffer the consequences of your actions and continue playing in that world. The caves also have plenty of saplings and tufts, albeit not many berries, but if you've been living entirely off berries in a world long enough to be suffering from consequences of one too many careless fires, you have bigger problems to deal with. Also pig skin being depleted is just a thing you have to get used to, since skilled players know that pig skin makes great armour.

22 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

so just craft a bunch of structures with construction amulets (which are dirt cheap compared to the staves) and hammer them for instant x2 resources back, got it

These sort of perspectives to me are pretty idiotic ways to look at balance and challenge, in a multiplayer setting nonetheless, not to mention how damaging this perspective has been to the game so far as it just scares or bores many new players away. Players being screwed over due to no fault of their own is not a good look on the game, I don't have much more to say about that. Having to waste 1 instead of 2 green gems to receive the same result that you would never use regardless because of so many other conditions, oh the audacity! Who in their right mind crafts any of the cheap structures with construction amulets to begin with?

The whole "trial and error" thing is a whole different topic I don't really want to get into, but in short you are wrong. There is no such thing, more often than not this game boils down to having no learning curve at all and you can only truly learn from other players and looking up guides. Check out my topic about the combat gap, maybe you'll learn a thing or two about some of the game's problems and its incredibly flawed design in progression.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/131243-the-combat-gap/?

Edited by ZombieDupe
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Guille6785    1042
14 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Exploit based farms should not exist, period. They defeat a lot of the game's challenges and any sense of triumph, not to mention turning the game into something it clearly shouldn't be. Better solution would be to make drops playing the game normally more rewarding wherever a player would have desired to make a farm for a specific resource. A good example of this could be the celestial champion dropping stacks of moonglass over the course of the fight, giving you the most reliable and fun method of getting lots of that resource. This way the game stays rewarding while being engaging, instead of whatever farm you've come up with.

fire farms have existed since before dst was even a thing

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goblinball    378
16 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Players being screwed over due to no fault of their own is not a good look on the game, I don't have much more to say about that.

What do you mean by “players being screwed over due to no fault of their own”? Someone dying because they decided to burn everything is their fault, how could it not be?

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ProWilsonMain    470
On 7/23/2021 at 3:06 AM, ZombieDupe said:

Griefing has been a big problem in the game at times when it happens and I never understood why there were no logical solutions implemented to prevent this. It has got to a point where I have heard people who host servers collectively keeping a list of people who grief to automatically ban them. What I have come to understand is that griefers in general may not even be malicious, they might do it just because they can and it's fun for them. In other words a "way to play the game" if you will. But there are clearly some behaviors that should be discouraged because it goes against the cooperative intent of the game. Anyone that does get attention from this can continue to do this precisely because they find the attention and chaos fun. Rolling back and kicking a player by vote only goes so far and it's making a situation worse at times when there was no intent to do so. Players can end up griefing unintentionally due to, for example, control conditioning from other games. Case in point a video, sponsored by Klei mind you, which to me shows how little Klei actually cares about this issue when they could very easily make it not an issue at all.

At 9:05 burns science machine accidentally without paying attention to the "light" option shown or the fact that they are holding a torch.

At 13:40 burns chest accidentally just without paying attention to the "light" option shown or the fact that they are holding a torch. Even funnier is the fact that the torch went out right after. Had he clicked a second later there would have been no second accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caI2iufOpvA


Despite how serious of a problem griefing is when it does happen and the fact that this can very easily happen by accident, there are only a few very specific ways you can actually grief in the game. This may not be the full list of them, but these are the most prominently potent ways and what very well can affect the game for people.

* Burn and/or hammer the base crops, structures or possibly items with a Torch or a Fire Staff.

* Light a creature on fire with a Torch, Fire Staff, Fire Dart or Scalemail when attacked, spreading the fire in places where you would never want to.

* Spawn tentacles as Wickerbottom with On Tentacles book in a base, portal or other special location of interest.

* Hammer a lightning rod if there is one and use End is Nigh as Wickerbottom to burn everything and kill everyone else around you with lightning.

* Place a spider nest in or close to a base structures or the spawn portal.

* Wall off the spawn location and anyone who doesn't know how to hold punch their way out will be stuck.


If these conditions were addressed in robust ways we would have the most prominent types of greifing gone, pretty much impossible to execute. Klei could use the code conditioning already set for shaving the beefalo (as you cannot shave one when a Beefalo is awake) when a player attempts to light something on fire that they very clearly should not, to prevent lighting something on fire under certain conditions. Additionally or alternatively there could be no action presented to do so at all, as was the case with stingers when they were first made flammable. There are very simple solutions to this that could be taken to mitigate these problems. Here are some examples.

* Make all flammable structures impossible to light on fire as a player. There is basically never a reason you would want to do this. The way the game is set, your life as a player matters less than the integrity of the base as reviving, even in its currently annoying and boring state, is less costly than repairing a portion of or the entirety of a decently sized base.

* Make all flammable structures repairable by some item from its crafting components so we don't have to hammer a burnt structure, collect remains, possibly hammer nearby structures that may be blocking placement and then use extra resources just so we can rebuild something in the same spot. It is extra-step tedium made for no reason whatsoever and it is annoying.

* Have some sort of checks in place so that a player cannot light something on fire, even a tree, which would spread further, period. This creates intent on lighting something on fire, even if oversimplified, to prevent potential chained fire griefing.

* tentacles from On Tentacles book if it's done on swamp turf. This creates explicit intent and can mitigate it to a large extent. Marsh turf could also be made impossible to place within a large radius of the portal.

* Planting spider eggs and effects from reading End is Nigh or On Tentacles should not execute in a decent radius of the portal, structures, or any "man-made" turf.

* While holding the hammer and pressing spacebar near a structure, have nothing happen. Require the player to click in order to execute it so this doesn't happen by accident or you hit the wrong structure in a bunch.

* All resources from a hammering a construction to be given back, there is no real reason to limit the resources given back as anyone who understands what is valuable in the game would never use a deconstruction staff on a structure anyway, but instead on certain rare items, which a hammer can't be used on at all.

 

There are a few other problematic instances that infuriate me and other players with experience in the game which some newer players or otherwise may be negligent about, but they are not inherently griefing so I won't be addressing them here (such as losing valuable items, which would reuire much more care to detail to address). However I would like to mention that lighting crops like berry bushes, grass, twigs, cacti, reeds etc can ultimately become devastating if enough players who join condition themselves to keep doing that for light or heat source as they play on a longer server because these things don't respawn in the world at all or to such a specific and small extent it is negligible to the damage this causes over time. I see biomes that should be full of grass, saplings and more that have nothing because stuff was burnt by a player who was freezing on servers and resources like pig skin completely depleted. How is this fair to anyone? Why are you letting people be able to do this? All it would take are simple mechanical changes that would make all the difference, so please take note of this!

I would even go as far as to say that lighting entire forests should not be possible to do in a multiplayer setting, it is better to have a controlled fire by burning trees one by one to get the charcoal. We could get charcoal by lighting logs on fire too if that was a possibility. The burning and other griefing type conditions are also something that can be updated over time when players encounter them (and we will), to make the system better, like was the case with Webber's rework as Klei added additional code through patches every time someone posted a problem about how Webber's spider mechanics needed extra conditions to work better. While on the subject matter, it would be good to have Webber's spiders exit the game with you and between shards, that is all that is needed to make the spider mechanics as they are done perfect.

I’m not in the mood to be throwing around blocks of text, so I’ll make this short and polite

I’m sorry, but I don’t quite agree. Have a nice day!

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Waynel    79

you talked about lists

well yeah, on pub you can find people who use blacklists to preemptively get rid of a potiental griefing threat. they will immediately kick the suspect if the name happens to be on the list. the griefer might have changed his ways but hey, better safe than sorry

it's simple and effective

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0bit    1578

Last time there were "preventative griefing solutions" implemented they completely ruined Willow
I'd really rather just deal with the occasional griefer or two

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BezKa    2971

We got some protection. At least it's no longer a thing to leave with valuable items. 

In game with creative components, it's probably impossible to get full griefer protection. We might just have to deal with it, and hope griefers get a life. 

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Captain_Rage    1987
21 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

These sort of perspectives to me are pretty idiotic ways to look at balance and challenge, in a multiplayer setting nonetheless, not to mention how damaging this perspective has been to the game so far as it just scares or bores many new players away. Players being screwed over due to no fault of their own is not a good look on the game, I don't have much more to say about that.

The premise of the game is to get screwed over to a various degree by things outside of your control. It is a survival game. Or should players decide for themselves when and how to get screwed over? lol.

 

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ProWilsonMain    470

It’s probably because I play on Xbox DST, but I very rarely run into griefers. In all my time I’ve only run into one, and it was easily fixed with a quick rollback and a ban.

   On 7/23/2021 at 3:06 AM,  ZombieDupe said: 

Case in point a video, sponsored by Klei mind you, which to me shows how little Klei actually cares about this issue when they could very easily make it not an issue at all.

At 9:05 burns science machine accidentally without paying attention to the "light" option shown or the fact that they are holding a torch.

At 13:40 burns chest accidentally just without paying attention to the "light" option shown or the fact that they are holding a torch. Even funnier is the fact that the torch went out right after. Had he clicked a second later there would have been no second accident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caI2iufOpvA

 

I’d also quickly like to touch on this. This is a very noob mistake to make. I’ve only ever done something like this ONCE. Not only that, but in both examples he was holding his torch in the daytime. Had he just put the torch away when day comes, like every player who has more then an hour clocked in, this would never have happened. Plus this is Grian and Mumbo we’re talking about, they accidentally sabotage each other in other games too. Once Grian threw a potato into Mumbo’s massive-scale redstone contraption and completely jammed it.  

Edited by ProWilsonMain

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Mario384    1134

I didn't read the main post, but I always personally thought some way to protect your structures while offline would've made a good addition for something like a Wilderness server, like a structure which protects building in an AOE radius.  I do feel the game should be playable on a public server without threat of it all going under due to one person with a torch and without heavy-handed moderation.

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ZombieDupe    312
On 7/24/2021 at 3:27 AM, goblinball said:

What do you mean by “players being screwed over due to no fault of their own”? Someone dying because they decided to burn everything is their fault, how could it not be?

Someone being soaked wet because someone else depleted the entire pig skin resource is not their fault. Not that hard to understand.

On 7/24/2021 at 11:20 PM, SuperMeatGoy said:

Get rid of deerclops because griefers can just bring him to base and destroy everything

He shouldn't spawn on new people, much like how hounds don't spawn on players below a certain day count. Deerlops himself is an intended mechanic to keep players out of base at times and descale the base size.

 

On 7/24/2021 at 4:42 PM, Lokena said:

Okay, this right now was a deep insult to everyone who LIKES to invent farms. Damn, another Klei game, Oxygen not Included, almost all about inventing stable self-supporting automatic systems! You can't just say that using farms is the "wrong" way to play the game. Not to mention the fact that coming up with an unusual way to achieve the desired result is both a creative process and an interesting challenge, and guess how called that feeling when you finally make something work the way you need it? Satisfaction and triumph! If this method is also faster than the usual one, then it eliminates the long wait and boredom of repeating the same actions. For many, farms free up player's time so that they can do what they really enjoy in the game. And if the player likes the usual process of collecting resources, then no one obliges them to use these farms. This is a personal choice, where there is no right answer. Also, fight the boss to get a regular resource? Especially the last boss in the whole game? Seriously? And what should those who don't like to fight do? This is the beauty of DST, in it everyone can find their own way to play it. So it's not up to you to decide what this game should be and what it shouldn't be. You can choose that for yourself, but not for the all other players.

Yes, in Oxygen Not Included. DS and DST have been survival games for a reason. If we want resource farms, then might as well just let everything and anything have the potential to do that, day 1. Except that destroys any sense of survival.

ONI has a different sense of survival that works even with builds like sour gas boilers. This doesn't work so well in the setting that DS is set in. I don't care how you play, but I do believe certain actions and methods should be highly discouraged to maintain gameplay engagement in a way appropriate to the theme of the game. Quick interactive automation of resources like crops may be appropriate, but whne you look at pig skin farms, even small scale ones, that just looks like an exploit that was never patched.

If the player would rather use farms to do something else fun that would not be possible due to the farm and the regular gameplay isn't fun at all, then this is an example of the game having serious problems in and of itself. The regular gameplay should be fun instead of the exploits, not the other way round.

With regards to bosses, there could be multiple ways to obtain a boss item, or the boss item itself could be something desirable but not that huge of a loss if you never got it (such as the enlightened crown). I think the way boss combat has been done in the game is highly inappropriate for the game's theme and needs to be redone regardless (with a few exceptions). What I mean by that is raid bosses should not be a thing, bosses should come for you, due to one reason or another and should be balanced accordingly, and instead of purely fighting them head on, to use traps and magic items to kill them or at least fend them off, while it still being rewarding to engage this way. It would play more with the idea of running away from a big scary monster much more.

On 7/25/2021 at 1:49 AM, ProWilsonMain said:

I’d also quickly like to touch on this. This is a very noob mistake to make. I’ve only ever done something like this ONCE. Not only that, but in both examples he was holding his torch in the daytime. Had he just put the torch away when day comes, like every player who has more then an hour clocked in, this would never have happened. Plus this is Grian and Mumbo we’re talking about, they accidentally sabotage each other in other games too. Once Grian threw a potato into Mumbo’s massive-scale redstone contraption and completely jammed it.  

Yes... are you making a counter-argument? Because so far you haven't really said anything. To me it is common enough to have reason to not have the "light" option even show up when hovering over with a torch. Is there even a reason you would like the ability to directly light a chest on fire at all? 1 hour of gameplay to notice, huh? You're too generous with your presumptions.

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SuperMeatGoy    277
1 hour ago, ZombieDupe said:

Is there even a reason you would like the ability to directly light a chest on fire at all? 

Honestly when I was a noob I think I've ended up making the Pyrrhic decision to light a structure on fire for light more than I've accidentally lit them on fire. Just because a couple of kid's youtubers klei payed to upload footage of their game ended up fooling around on what appears to be their first playthrough doesnt mean klei should waste dev-time completely locking down any way of accidentally lighting structures on fire. It's a non-issue.

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