POLL on Wicker, WX, Wolf “power trio”

[Warpspeed10]

It doesn't really matter how much damage they do, what matters is how interesting they are to play with. Especially when they are competing with so many more mechanically interesting characters.

[Mysterious box]

I feel like most people on the Wolfgang stands above all train are solo players.

[Guille6785]

8 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

How about fighting depth worms, hound attacks, nightmare waves in the ruins, spider insta killing, pig farming, Toadstool? The difference between two shotting a 100 health mob vs one shotting them is huge.

depths worms and nightmare creatures already die very fast as any character, wolfgang only saves a few seconds fighting them and you encounter them very infrequently so they're a really bad example

effective pig farming doesn't require the player to deal any damage

killing spiders in 1 hit vs 2 literally never matters, you only fight one den at a time, they can be stunlocked and spider farms don't require intervention from the player

toadstool only matters if you're fighting him no cheese for the challenge, otherwise some bunnymen will kill him extremely fast

late game hound waves are the only good example of damage making an important difference past the early game but it's not a huge deal for other characters since hound traps exist and you can run to a nearby cave entrance when available

8 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

If 2* damage modifier is so insignificant

I'm not saying it's insignificant, I'm saying it's not overpowered

8 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

doesn't that mean reducing it for more utility in another area won't be a bad change?

cheap high single target damage is wolfgang's niche, there's zero reason to reduce it even if klei gives him more utility

[kilobit]

the power trio is mostly a thing that lived during the drought of updates for dst, none of them are really as powerful as they were made to be, especially with the inclusion of new characters, reworked characters, and new ingame content

 

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like most people on the Wolfgang stands above all train are solo players.

Might be, also might have something to do with players who see their character choice as a meta pick vs flavor pick.  If you don't mind switching characters at the portal to get whatever you want you probably see Wolfgang as another tool at your disposal, like using a golden pickaxe.  But if you don't like switching characters, you see an egregious imbalance that makes picking some characters "right" and others "wrong."

[Lokena]

I find it very difficult to choose how to answer this. This is the very trio of characters I've never really used in DST(or even in DS, where you can choose only one character and therefore it's more important). I have experience playing for them, but I just don't see anything particularly interesting about them. So for me, the whole argument about "oh no, they're too strong/universal/overshadow everyone else" looked funny at most, which in itself speaks to my point of view on this issue.

[00petar00]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Might be, also might have something to do with players who see their character choice as a meta pick vs flavor pick.  If you don't mind switching characters at the portal to get whatever you want you probably see Wolfgang as another tool at your disposal, like using a golden pickaxe.  But if you don't like switching characters, you see an egregious imbalance that makes picking some characters "right" and others "wrong."

Yeah, its weird how so many players just can't see how strong Wolfgang is. Some may say  that now with so many new characters and reworks, that he isn't played as much but that is because other characters are more "fun" and have more abilities. No one likes to play a stat character that much.

At day 1 of the server, he has 2x damage and a speed boost as if you started with a walking cane (25%), hunger is never difficult to maintain to an average player who has some experience and killing bosses as twice the speed and half the resources needed when calculated that hunger drain is nothing and you actually profit by a lot.

I am not saying here that he needs to be nerfed but he is still the strongest character if you just consider first 30-50 days of the world and is quite decent in late game/megabasing too, until you have all the setups at boss locations that you want to farm, whether that be bunnymen,tentacles,catapults or anything else, even if you don't need his damage for bosses after that, you'd still be able to use his speed boost, when you have beeboxes and have infinite food and can stay mighty all the time.

As a solo character he is even more effective considering how long it would take to someone to just build setups at boss locations, that's even assuming that the goal is megabasing and that the world will last that long.

Now imagine a veteran player that has 1000+ hours in DS/DST, who knows how strong Wolfgang is and wants to megabase and play on a world solo, he will start with Wolfgang and switch characters later depending on what he needs, picking him first will allow him to spend much less time killing bosses early which would allow him to get items of his choice from bosses as soon as they are available to be killed and require the least time to get to the end game gear.

[W0l0l0]

4 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

depths worms and nightmare creatures already die very fast as any character, wolfgang only saves a few seconds fighting them and you encounter them very infrequently so they're a really bad example

Likely a playstyle difference, but for me its not a "few seconds". Depth worm attacks take time, things go wrong all at once, maybe you're just very organized, but Don't Starve Together's gameplay is often very chaotic and fighting is one of the largest parts of the game. People don't automate things with farms as other may do. I'll apologize if my examples are kinda meh, my intention is that fighting is really important. I've even taken on frog rain as Wolfgang as they die so fast.

5 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

killing spiders in 1 hit vs 2 literally never matters, you only fight one den at a time, they can be stunlocked and spider farms don't require intervention from the player

Again, playstyle difference, I have to fight lots of spiders very often and I'm not alone, and definitely can't stunlock a group of them. I find it very hard to believe that the majority of Don't Starve Together players won't find themselves surrounded by spiders at some point (especially after Webber gets his rework ).

5 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

toadstool only matters if you're fighting him no cheese for the challenge, otherwise some bunnymen will kill him extremely fast

You've completely neglected the part of the playerbase that wants to fight toadstool legitimately on regular solo servers and as a group. And the former is what I'm concerned with.

5 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I'm not saying it's insignificant, I'm saying it's not overpowered

Apologies, I shouldn't twist words.

5 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

cheap high single target damage is wolfgang's niche, there's zero reason to reduce it even if klei gives him more utility

So considering the following statement:

On 6/18/2021 at 9:57 PM, Guille6785 said:

dragonfly is the only noteworthy time saver a damage multiplier gives you and even then her drops aren't fantastic, all the other bosses can be killed in ways that barely require you hit them yourself and the time saved fighting small/medium mobs like pigs or clockworks is minimal

 

You say his niche is cheap single target removal, but also say he doesn't save any time from that upside aside from a specific boss. So is it his niche or not? Or is it what you think his niche is, should be emphasized in his rework?

[Guille6785]

35 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

but also say he doesn't save any time from that upside aside from a specific boss

I said dragonfly was the only noteworthy timesaver, but I never said that he doesn't save time elsewhere

once again I'm not saying damage is completely useless either, I'm arguing why it's not overpowered and it's perfectly fine for it to stay as is

[Yuuko]

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I said dragonfly was the only noteworthy timesaver, but I never said that he doesn't save time elsewhere

once again I'm not saying damage is completely useless either, I'm arguing why it's not overpowered and it's perfectly fine for it to stay as is

Its a time saver on any boss.  The more HP the boss has, the more time is saved by having double damage.  It also means quite a bit to ko a spider in a single hit, or a hound in 2 hits.  Besides that you're cutting the time required for any farming task in half, 2 hits lets you kite in and out of hound attacks without taking damage even against multiple hounds, reducing their number by 1 each time.  With that same setup and only 1x character multiplier you need 3 hits to kill a hound, which isn't enough time to kill one each cycle without tanking the horde.

That's why he's such a popular meta pick for early game.  Its easy power.  Whether your opinion of this power is that it is too much or not is beside the point that there is a LOT of power in Wolfgang.  He's the definitive combat character, with Wigfrid as a runner up for when your connection isn't peak, or you want to be more supportive.

[Guille6785]

13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Its a time saver on any boss

yet again I didn't say this was never the case, I said dragonfly is the only boss where his damage really makes a major difference

13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The more HP the boss has, the more time is saved by having double damage

what matters first and foremost is the strategy you use, wes can kill bee queen just as fast as wolfgang

13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

It also means quite a bit to ko a spider in a single hit

I legitimately don't understand in what situation this matters, when exactly are you fighting dozens of spiders at once with no option to separate them or stunlock them

13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

that's why he's such a popular meta pick for early game

popular doesn't equal powerful, most players are fairly inexperienced and don't know how to kill bosses without spending tons of resources

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

yet again I didn't say this was never the case, I said dragonfly is the only boss where his damage really makes a major difference

what matters first and foremost is the strategy you use, wes can kill bee queen just as fast as wolfgang

LOLOLOLOLO Are you a troll?

Quote

popular doesn't equal powerful, most players are fairly inexperienced and don't know how to kill bosses without spending tons of resources

Wolfgang isn't actually a big pick in the playerbase at large, he is a big pick for meta gamers.  Check out any meta strats and they pretty much always start with Wolfgang to explore the map and clear all of the bosses first, then they come back with character swaps to build out the systems for farming.  Your first time beating a boss means the most.  Dfly before winter for free heat, Bee Queen asap to preserve the mountains of food that pile up, AG / Shadow Pieces / AFW to get that sweet helmet / armor and ruins reset, ect.

You might not want to admit these things but go check out speed runs, Wolfgang almost every time.

[Guille6785]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Wolfgang isn't actually a big pick in the playerbase at large, he IS a BIG pick for meta gamers.  Check out any meta strats and they pretty much always start with Wolfgang to explore the map and clear all of the bosses first, then they come back with character swaps to build out the systems for farming.  Your first time beating a boss means the most.  Dfly before winter for free heat, Bee Queen asap to preserve the mountains of food that pile up, AG / Shadow Pieces / AFW to get that sweet helmet / armor and ruins reset, ect.

You might not want to admit these things but go check out speed runs, Wolfgang almost every time.

are you watching gameplay from 2017

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

yet again I didn't say this was never the case, I said dragonfly is the only boss where his damage really makes a major difference

What about ck and fw. Having more damage means that you dont have to care that much about mistakes with their healings

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I legitimately don't understand in what situation this matters, when exactly are you fighting dozens of spiders at once with no option to separate them or stunlock them

That takes time and with him isnt needed so you end saving time by killing them faster and by no needing any strategy to kill them. Just press F

Same with every other horde like hounds or monkeys 

[Waynel]

I think it'd be quite naive to believe that wolfgang is the meta except if in dst one equals meta with speedrunning dragonfly on day 3 - 4  ;

what people should realize is that it's more about playstyle and strats ; for instance as winona you can setup catapults on top of many raid boss arenas. Now admittedly, you won't set any record as opposed to that wolfgang speedrunner, but you will be able to farm raid bosses and their loot consistently, and without having to worry too much about armor, weapons, etc. (as opposed to that wolfgang who will always be insane, and always be careful about not being caught between transitions, not forgetting to carry 6 meatballs in his inv during every trip and so on)

(also ye you need to kill spiders to get that winona arsenal but cmon, taking down a single tier 3 spider den will give you enough silk for at least 6 trusty tapes, i.e. 6 catapults)

And again, it doesn't really make a difference whether you get that furnace on day 20 or on day 10 (assuming the furnace is that vital in the first place ?? for me it's more about the feeling of accomplishment when you kill the dragonfly and place that furnace)

But even if we stick to melee combat, warly will take down bosses more quickly and with less gear than a wolfgang would once he has access to pepper and volt goat jelly.

and what about wortox who can abuse his teleport ability to dodge swipes in certain boss fights, thereby completely negating incoming damage.

 

Finally its not like you're stuck with one character, in dst you can always swap to a specific character to perform x task more easily, then swap back to the other (for instance swapping to wendy to clear the entire world from spiders and then going back to winona).

 

Just not reasonable to assume point blank "wolfgang meta" ; i also believe that much of the confusion on this subject is due to the vagueness of the question itself : what does one mean by "who is the best character ?". This needs to be qualified : what is your playstyle ? what do you want to accomplish ? what's your strat ? Short or long term world ? and so on.

 

 

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Waynel said:

I think it'd be quite naive to believe that wolfgang is the meta except if in dst one equals meta with speedrunning dragonfly on day 3 - 4  ;

what people should realize is that it's more about playstyle and strats ; for instance as winona you can setup catapults on top of many raid boss arenas. Now admittedly, you won't set any record as opposed to that wolfgang speedrunner, but you will be able to farm raid bosses and their loot consistently, and without having to worry too much about armor, weapons, etc. (as opposed to that wolfgang who will always be insane, and always be careful about not being caught between transitions, not forgetting to carry 6 meatballs in his inv during every trip and so on)

Seems to be this recurring theme of "Other characters can do it => Wolfgang not op" as if that is a valid argument.  No one is saying the other characters are incapable or unplayable.  Not even saying Wolfgang anymore in this thread really.  All I'm saying is you cannot deny that his easy access to big damage is a massive boon.  Wendy tier character power.

Not even saying its a problem considering the way Klei has been going with the reworks either.  Just quit acting like Wolfgang is somehow weak at 2x damage multiplier just b/c Winona can build catapults eventually...  srsly had a comment "wes can beat bee queen as quick as wolfgang" yeah gl with that...

There is value in clearing the bosses as quickly as possible.  The earlier you get bundling wraps the earlier you can set up food storage to use those warly recipes.  Getting furnace before first winter makes it easy to swap out heat stones, or super heat in winter gear rather than wasting time dealing with cold in other methods.  ect  It doesn't really matter that Wes can setup an army of bunnymen to clear Bee Queen if Wolfgang can do both bee and fly in the same amount of time in first autumn.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Just quit acting like Wolfgang is somehow weak at 2x damage multiplier just b/c Winona can build catapults eventually...  srsly had a comment "wes can beat bee queen as quick as wolfgang" yeah gl with that...

There is value in clearing the bosses as quickly as possible.

the boss rush meta died months ago, good players start by exploring the world and setting up food farms then bq and fw farms

the furnace is really nice to help basesitters in pubs but it's borderline useless for your first winter in a solo world, trees will heat you up better (a tree burns at 90 degrees and a single furnace doesn't even burn at 50 mid winter) and they can be used anywhere on the map, I actually consider dragonfly to be only slightly more useful to kill than toadstool

bq crown and jellybeans aren't necessary until day 21 when you fight the shadow pieces, early bundles are nice but the time spent rushing bq doesn't compensate for the time saved with extra inventory slots the first few days, every single character is objectively better off setting up a bq farm mid to late autumn

[Waynel]

Seems like a strawman to me but let me make myself clear if it wasn't the case. I don't argue that wolfgang is not op ; he absolutely is. But so are other characters such as winona, warly, or wortox.

For instance, I'm pretty sure that a decently experienced wendy player can slay bee queen in the first days of autumn (buffed abi with potions, has some trailmix, etc) and then proceed to kill dragonfly before the start of winter.

With winona, same thing, set up catapults at bq, kill bq, and in the last days of autumn you can go slay df with catas or melee (id favor melee in my 1st dragonfly kill ; in general, melee df is not a big deal).

 

Now obviously you have some weaker characters that could still kill bosses but less quickly and who might not achieve that in their first autumn.

(especially with beequeen who is so annoying but thats another topic)

 

For me it boils down to this (in the solo context ofc) : on the one hand, you have a bunch of characters who have relevant perks in terms of achieving things in the game at a faster pace (essentially killing bosses) : warly, wortox, wolfgang, wendy, winona, wigfrid

on the other hand, you have... well the rest : willow, wormwood, wilson, woodie, webber and wes (i hope that we will get some real spider army vibe in webber's rework cuz at the moment "spider minions" are quite underwhelming when it comes to slaying bosses)

(i'm kinda undecided as to walter, same for wurt)

 

Regarding wes i agree, and... "wes can beat bee queen as quick as wolfgang" looks like a troll statement to me. (unless it's about executing some cheesy non melee strat).

Poor wes, life is harder for him... but i guess its the idea behind this character, more challenging.

 

Yes, the bundling wrap is definitely one of the best items in the game and it should be aquired asap. imo it is far more useful than the furnace (i think the furnace just puts you in a slightly more comfortable position, no need to fuel firepit to cook sth or for heat, which is neat without a doubt).

 

Also the point was raised earlier in the discussion about characters killing small mobs like frogs hounds spiders with ease... and nobody points out the elephant in the room : abigail. Post rework abigail is absurdly overpowered, she can just annihilate any horde of tiny mobs : frogs, spiders, cookie cutters, monkeys, you name it. Obviously wolfgang is better at killing these types of mobs than the average character but with abigail you just skyrocket to a whole other level.

 

I'm glad that the webber rework is incoming cuz at the moment he's bested by wendy at everyything... even spider farm (yes, civil wars are much slower than killing spiders at dusk/night with abi).

I also hope that one day Klei will buff up wilson and willow... but hey one thing at a time :dd

 

 

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

15 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

good players

[Guille6785]

37 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

they brought that argument up first /shrug

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Waynel said:

Also the point was raised earlier in the discussion about characters killing small mobs like frogs hounds spiders with ease... and nobody points out the elephant in the room : abigail. Post rework abigail is absurdly overpowered, she can just annihilate any horde of tiny mobs : frogs, spiders, cookie cutters, monkeys, you name it. Obviously wolfgang is better at killing these types of mobs than the average character but with abigail you just skyrocket to a whole other level.

Abi was covered, I don't think anyone doubts her power.

[Lennard]

I think others have already said similar comments.
I think the trio is still relatively powerful if you can play them well. They are slightly better than some combos while weaker than others.

The trio has become massively irrelavent ever since character reworks, new characters and new updates to the game has been coming out.

They were only seen as powerful/OP during ANR and before ROT

[Waynel]

maxwell winona and wendy ftw

 

but trio will evolve anyway in late game (i mean one of the players will switch to warly at some point right ?)

[Mysterious box]

6 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Seems to be this recurring theme of "Other characters can do it => Wolfgang not op" as if that is a valid argument.  No one is saying the other characters are incapable or unplayable.  Not even saying Wolfgang anymore in this thread really.  All I'm saying is you cannot deny that his easy access to big damage is a massive boon.  Wendy tier character power.

Not even saying its a problem considering the way Klei has been going with the reworks either.  Just quit acting like Wolfgang is somehow weak at 2x damage multiplier just b/c Winona can build catapults eventually...  srsly had a comment "wes can beat bee queen as quick as wolfgang" yeah gl with that...

There is value in clearing the bosses as quickly as possible.  The earlier you get bundling wraps the earlier you can set up food storage to use those warly recipes.  Getting furnace before first winter makes it easy to swap out heat stones, or super heat in winter gear rather than wasting time dealing with cold in other methods.  ect  It doesn't really matter that Wes can setup an army of bunnymen to clear Bee Queen if Wolfgang can do both bee and fly in the same amount of time in first autumn.

The key thing here I feel people overlook though is boss loot makes the game easier yes but no boss loot is required either so what if Wolfgang can help you kill some bosses a bit faster than most characters all that really matters is how good you are at surviving and making use of what you do have everyone can get boss drops early on not just Wolfgang he'll just get most quicker than others and those boss drops aren't even needed to survive it all really comes down to playstyle you'd be surprised how bad some people are at surviving despite being good at bossing. It's not like you can't get the same boss gear in around the same time Wolfgang does if you use the same strats with other characters you will be some days slower due to him lowering the bosses hp faster? Yes but so what it's not like players with decent skill levels chances of survival plummet because they suddenly don't have a furnace and can't deal with winter or other things of that nature. This is a survival game not a fighting game so I don't see a character making optional content a bit easier when playing solo as overpowered but maybe that's just me.