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Cheggf    3349
11 minutes ago, Pinegrove said:

Ornery is better for characters that don't have natural combat skills, Rider is useful for characters that don't have natural speed buffs. Pudgy... just looks cute!

Wendy's the best on-foot fighter and becomes even stronger on an ornery beefalo.  :D

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Pinegrove    2078
17 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Wendy's the best on-foot fighter and becomes even stronger on an ornery beefalo.  :D

That is true! I should have worded myself better, I meant characters that have a damage multiplier (Wolfgang, Wigfrid), since it unfortunately doesn't transfer into the beefalo's strength.

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Guille6785    221
2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Wendy's the best on-foot fighter and becomes even stronger on an ornery beefalo.  :D

rider is actually better for wendy, ornery only makes a tiny difference in every important combat scenario in exchange for being slower and having to be fed

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clickrush    427

Holy cow! It’ll follow you through the caves and ruins? I missed this change! That’s actually super useful. The main threat there is getting swarmed by monkeys and shadows, so having that additional health and movement speed should be super useful! Also simply finding the area is time consuming. Exciting!

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Well-met    5649

default + war saddle is best.

its like ornery but without the attitude or any downside at all.

14 damage loss is acceptable

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Notecja    1961

I like ornery with glossamer saddle as allow to fight Klaus without taking any damage.

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clickrush    427
21 minutes ago, Well-met said:

default + war saddle is best.

its like ornery but without the attitude or any downside at all.

14 damage loss is acceptable

It's 16 according to the wiki. It might be "acceptable", but just to be sure: having >=50 damage output per hit is non-trivial because it means for the vast majority of combat situations you'll be requiring less hits to kill a creature/monster so your effective damage output is much higher than just what ever 16 damage is in isolation.

The War Saddle is also not a thing that is easy to get apparently. Tracking is already quite time consuming, even if worthwhile, but then you also need to be lucky -  twice - and then you are in a situation where you need to befriend pigs or get help from a friend. Then there is the benefit of not having to switch saddles between riding and combat situations. Again, it is certainly worthwhile in the long run but I would guess the cost-benefit tilts towards the other beefalo tendencies given those trade offs.

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Well-met    5649
57 minutes ago, clickrush said:

It's 16 according to the wiki. It might be "acceptable", but just to be sure: having >=50 damage output per hit is non-trivial because it means for the vast majority of combat situations you'll be requiring less hits to kill a creature/monster so your effective damage output is much higher than just what ever 16 damage is in isolation.

default loses an extra hit every 4 hit to ornery vs no chance to cause its own death (or its rider's) by refusal to an emergency mounting

ill gladly take the trade.

Edited by Well-met
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Guille6785    221
15 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

The glossamer saddle also speeds up the ornery up to a point where the time saved between commuting with an actual rider and an ornery with glossamer is minimal

You missed the part where I said ornery makes a very minimal difference in fights, I tested it and here's some examples

-Rider with a war saddle takes 3 more hits to kill shadow creatures than ornery but consider that:
1. It's basically impossible to go insane as wendy outside of the ruins
2. A beefalo alleviates the need to craft dark swords, refuel magiluminescences and bone armors, the 3 most common uses of nightmare fuel, meaning you don't really have to farm fuel often if at all
3. Wendy has a portable splumonkey farm meaning she can simply never fight any nightmares at all and still get enough fuel to cover her needs

-There's literally no difference between both tendencies when it comes to late game hound waves; abi will melt them either way in under 20 seconds even with day damage

-Against depths worms an ornery with a war saddle actually takes just as long to kill them as a morning star (worms are always wet) so if they add up and you need to clear them you can simply bait them out one at a time and finish them off with the morning star and it'll be just as fast; morning stars are good to have in caves as a backup light source and emergency weapon regardless

-Clearing clockworks in the ruins is the biggest difference between the two tendencies and even then it's not too bad for rider; swap to a war saddle and rider will be dealing 63.1 damage with the petal buff alongside abigail's own dps which is always 40 in the caves. Bishops and knights only take ~3 seconds longer to kill and any extra damage they deal to abigail can be counteracted with revenant restorative (a single pipspook will give you enough mourning glories for at least 6 of them and they last for an entire day which makes them ideal for an in-depth ruins clear). I usually don't bother killing any significant amount of rooks or knights to begin with unless I have a very specific plan to use gears though. In some situations I might even prefer to clear clockwork biomes on foot because of the ability to set knights and bishops on fire with a torch.

You may think that if ornery's dps doesn't matter for normal mobs it should matter for bosses but that's not really the case:

-If you want to tank clops on your beef having ornery will save you a whopping 10 seconds every year

-Klaus is about 30 seconds faster on an ornery with a war saddle compared to fighting him with a fresh ham bat and that's a raid boss with 15000 HP

-Bee queen is very complicated to fight on a beef for the following reasons:
1. Despite having 1000 hp beefs are surprisingly squishy, I couldn't even get the queen down to half hp before my cow died with an ornery beefalo
2. You may think you can kite phases 1 and 2 since she won't attack abigail during those phases but an ornery beefalo with a war saddle only moves at 8.75 speed and its slower attack speed makes it very tedious to land 2 hits before having to move away so this is very dangerous
3. And of course the simple fact that while wendy has an extremely good rushing strategy for this boss, the bee queen also happens to be one of the easiest bosses to farm meaning that after you rush her the only reason to fight her on a beef is if you're deliberately trying to experience the fight in which case this discussion doesn't matter; otherwise you can simply make an oven or spam bunny hutches around the gigantic beehive to bypass the need to have high damage in the first place

-Fuelweaver is very similar to bee queen; trying to do the fight on a beefalo is
A. needlessly complicated and not really better than fighting on foot, you can't do wendy's tanking strategy on a beef because of how squishy they are
B. unnecessary because the fuelweaver can be cheesed easily

-Dragonfly is not a bad matchup for a beefalo but the only point in fighting her more than once is for fun; scales can be multiplied with green gems, the ruins is full of gems, and if you really want to get all the gems you possibly can you can simply place some walls and attack her with a dozen bunnymen

-Regular toad is a waste of time to fight and misery toad is absolutely unbearable for a single player and should be cheesed unless you really want the endurance challenge; having a beef here won't change this fact

-You can't dodge the tier 3 rook on an ornery with a war saddle but you can with a rider and war saddle, so having ornery for this fight will only result in slightly higher dps

And you casually brush off 5-ish twigs per day as a negligible downside but it really isn't, if you use your beefalo to move around constantly (and you should because beefalo are very fast) that cost will add up extremely quickly, and that's not to mention in an unlucky situation it could even get you and your beef killed. Having to carry items to feed to your beefalo is very annoying too, you'll have to constantly grab grass/twigs/light bulbs along the way or from wherever you keep them and they'll occupy additional inventory slots (I don't carry twigs late game and I carry rope instead of grass for bundles as it's more space efficient)

And to top it off rider moves almost 15% faster than ornery which you may think doesn't matter but any kind of speed boost will save a lot of time in the long run even if it's not immediately apparent

 

tl;dr ornery provides no significant advantage in combat over rider for wendy while being noticeably slower for general use due to its downsides

Edited by Guille6785
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Bluepufferfish    297

Ornery is best to rush for solid combat abilities, boss strats and additional speed. I also highly recommend rushing glossamer saddle as well, it make the experience much better. 

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clickrush    427
5 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

(...)

tl;dr ornery provides no significant advantage over rider while being noticeably slower for general use due to its downsides

I feel like your analysis is very spot on and detailed. But one point that I find quite important is this: I personally tend to value efficiency in the first 1-3 years the most as I don't typically play a world much beyond that. I just don't think the War Saddle is a reliable and easy to get item and swapping saddles also requires a bit of inventory space and additional actions. I don't assume that you can easily access it during the first year, you might get lucky but you kind of need to go out of your way to increase your chances and there is *so much* to do in the first year anyways so there is a huge opportunity cost to this.

So I guess in the long run, everything you said makes total sense. But if we're talking about first year efficiency it is probably ornery for most characters (I can't comment on Wendy specifically), especially on solo runs. Combat efficiency is absolute key in this game. The longer you fight the more time you waste, you get hit more, you lose more sanity (which you may or may not want). The less efficient your combat and the more you need to invest/prepare beforehand the less freedom you have and the more it dictates your rhythm of doing things. At the time you access such an expensive item such as the war saddle (which I consider more expensive than thulecite crowns, dark swords and similar) you are already in such good shape that you can pretty much do w/e you like so to speak.

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5 hours ago, clickrush said:

It's 16 according to the wiki. It might be "acceptable", but just to be sure: having >=50 damage output per hit is non-trivial because it means for the vast majority of combat situations you'll be requiring less hits to kill a creature/monster so your effective damage output is much higher than just what ever 16 damage is in isolation.

The War Saddle is also not a thing that is easy to get apparently. Tracking is already quite time consuming, even if worthwhile, but then you also need to be lucky -  twice - and then you are in a situation where you need to befriend pigs or get help from a friend. Then there is the benefit of not having to switch saddles between riding and combat situations. Again, it is certainly worthwhile in the long run but I would guess the cost-benefit tilts towards the other beefalo tendencies given those trade offs.

Any character riding a Beefalo is immune to Ewecus' immobilizing attack. Ewecus actually become one of the easiest mobs in the game to hunt on a Beefalo for this reason, and you can get the War Saddle with almost no prep-time necessary once you've spawned the two Ewecus.

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clickrush    427

> Like I said using a beefalo for bee queen is a bad idea, but even if it wasn't it still wouldn't benefit me because as wendy I kill bee queen day 4-7 and then farm her afterwards so I would never get the chance to use a beefalo anyway

This suprises me a bit, I know that Wendy is specifically strong against her, but I feel like day 7 is super early. I usually uncover the map at day 10ish or so. Maybe I'm to thorough or inefficient at it. In my current run I even skipped uncovering the map after finding oasis so I could set up more stuff before winter and only found bee queen at some point during winter. Granted it is a Warly run, I still think day 7 is super fast. Or maybe I have to get used to the new world generation more.

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Cheggf    3349
29 minutes ago, clickrush said:

This suprises me a bit, I know that Wendy is specifically strong against her, but I feel like day 7 is super early. I usually uncover the map at day 10ish or so. Maybe I'm to thorough or inefficient at it. In my current run I even skipped uncovering the map after finding oasis so I could set up more stuff before winter and only found bee queen at some point during winter. Granted it is a Warly run, I still think day 7 is super fast. Or maybe I have to get used to the new world generation more.

Bee Queen day 4-10 is normal as Wendy. You can even get day 2 if you get good generation. This video shows a day 5 Bee Queen kill, and all he used was 9 butter muffins, 20 trail mix, 3 log suits, and 2 bee keeper hats (which are really easy to obtain as Wendy). If you find marble set pieces you can make marble suits and use 75% less healing, too.

Edited by Cheggf
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Masked Koopa    121

Generally speaking I would not recommend using rider with a war saddle. An ornery with a glossamer saddle does more damage (50 vs 41) and moves marginally faster (10.85 vs 10). So that really just leaves the beefalo feeding, which is entirely manageable, especially since you can use bananas, light bulbs, glowberries, and now even lichen as a substitute for grass/twigs.

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Cheggf    3349
4 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Generally speaking I would not recommend using rider with a war saddle. An ornery with a glossamer saddle does more damage (50 vs 41) and moves marginally faster (10.85 vs 10). So that really just leaves the beefalo feeding, which is entirely manageable, especially since you can use bananas, light bulbs, glowberries, and now even lichen as a substitute for grass/twigs.

Nearly 10% is marginally? A 10% change is what the piggyback does and people hate it for that.

Edited by Cheggf

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Guille6785    221
58 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Generally speaking I would not recommend using rider with a war saddle. An ornery with a glossamer saddle does more damage (50 vs 41) and moves marginally faster (10.85 vs 10). So that really just leaves the beefalo feeding, which is entirely manageable, especially since you can use bananas, light bulbs, glowberries, and now even lichen as a substitute for grass/twigs.

just use glossamer and swap to war

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I'm personally a fan of Ornery Beefalo rushes as any character with default damage or less. It can let you solo quite a few bosses with minimal resources required.

I've been doing quite a bit of Beefalo taming recently while I'm trying to get good at solo Wurt starts, and whenever I see the Beefalo starting to display the Default tendency I feel like I'm being punished for not keeping up the Ornery trait.

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1 hour ago, piratekingflcl said:

I'm personally a fan of Ornery Beefalo rushes as any character with default damage or less. It can let you solo quite a few bosses with minimal resources required.

I've been doing quite a bit of Beefalo taming recently while I'm trying to get good at solo Wurt starts, and whenever I see the Beefalo starting to display the Default tendency I feel like I'm being punished for not keeping up the Ornery trait.

A good way to keep it up, and to get something in return, is to take your beefalo to the nearest desert and start picking spiky bushes and cacti; not only will you be gaining ornery tendency points, but sticks to feed your beefalo and cacti for yourself to eat as a snack, it’s a win win! I’ve managed to tame an ornery by doing this alone. 

Edited by YesterdaysLemon
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EsaiXD    982

ive always enjoyed onery tendency.
i actually don't really use the war saddle all too much.
only really on basic mobs regular giants and the beequeen i have the war saddle on him just to get the most out of his damage before i have to swap off

other surface fights are done much more smoothly with a normal saddle or the glossamer.
ie the shadow pieces  and dragonfly.
can take on dragonfly without any healing or flute with a normal/ speed saddle ornery beef. if you are good at the kiting pattern.
and the t3 shadow rook can be kited with a normal saddle on him.
 

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