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Friendly Grass    516
9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

How are you going to say that it doesn't warm that much when it is similar to third tier fire which is 180 degrees (70/120/180/220). Will not get extinquished for 3.5 days and never changes temperature, you don't need to keep adding wood.

In DST a dwarf star has a temperature of 100 degrees and that is rather misleading. I’ll update my guide to explain this at some point but in winter it can warm a player/thermal stone to about 40 degrees. I know this both from testing and by calculating from the code. 
 

Notice how I never said one strategy was objectively the best. I think it’s different for different people, situations, worlds, playstyles, preferences, etc. And just because you find one strat cumbersome or annoying doesn’t mean someone else does. And imo they all have significant downsides for their protection from the cold.

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Cheggf    3586
1 hour ago, Friendly Grass said:

Notice how I never said one strategy was objectively the best. I think it’s different for different people, situations, worlds, playstyles, preferences, etc. And just because you find one strat cumbersome or annoying doesn’t mean someone else does. And imo they all have significant downsides for their protection from the cold.

Ever since RWYS Warly's dragon salad doesn't have significant downsides. :)

Other than being unlikely to be able to be started the first winter... :cry:

Edited by Cheggf

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Pig Princess    139

Thank you for the guide, especially for the part with approximate time it takes player temperature to drop from 70 to 0. Can you do part 2 with cooling? By the way, recently I found a video where player cooled thermal stone in seconds using flingomatic, torch and burnable object (rope), and while it was impressive, I would like to know how much exactly snowball affects temperature; also I think many players would appreciate technical information about other ways of cooling.

Regarding recent guide. You are comparing different ways of keeping warm with unspoken assumption, that every resource is so valuble that player cares about minimizing it's usage (at least to me it seems like that), but that's not always the case. For example, I'm using beefalo hat + thermal stone and I knew about "wasting" beefalo hat part for years. Why am I keeping to do that? For negating disadvantage of using only insulating clothing - inability to use armor in corresponding slots, also I play mostly solo and have more rocks than I can use, so I'm ok with breaking thermals. In exchange for some rocks and flint I gain ability to keep using backpack (relevant in early/mid game, including first winter) and switch to football helmet for quick combat and not freeze in seconds most of the time (if my thermal is white already I heat it beforehand). From that view point it's not "wasting beefalo hat durability because thermals and clothing don't stack", but rather "use beefalo hat normally and have backup heat source in case some expected quick combat with high chance of being hit happens (mactusk, hounds, etc.)".

That isn't flawless strategy, for example, one could argue that it's better to use body armor instead of thermal stone to achieve the same effect, or use sunfish + bundle instead of thermal as a backup heat and keep beefalo hat as main way of staying warm, or give up on backpack and use puffy vest + beefalo hat/football helmet, etc., and that are all valid strategies (first and last ones I tried and it worked good, in solo worlds and pubs), but as everything in DS, they have their downsides. For example, body armor is generally more difficult/time consuming to farm (log suit vs football helmet, slurtle armor, night armor because of non-relocatable reeds, bone armor (requires either rushing FW or is second year item), thulecite armor (requires ruins rushing and clearing significant part of them, and while I can do so I prefer to find good place for a base (place for dropping all the loot and have crock pots and ice box) and do ruins in spring/summer)). Sunfish can be obtained only in summer and with autumn as starting season isn't avalable before the first winter, bundle wrap blueprint is usually first spring item for me (and not many people can do Bee Queen in the first year in general, solo or not). Puffy vest is good alternative (especially considering it's high durability and availability), but competes with backpack. Star caller not only isn't very warm, but also requires to spend significant part of the autumn in the caves not exploring forest shard, and I don't enjoy constant pressure of time and/or full inventory after day 15-18 on almost unexplored map. Things might be different for spring/summer start though.

Also for all replying to the topic: I think people should separate strategies good for different stages of the game (first winter or 1000+ day world), different tasks (boss fighting, keeping oneself warm and mobile, work in one area for some time, etc.), available for players with defferent skill levels and playstyles (can they rush ruins/clear them, kill Bee Queen, Dragonfly (and how many scales can they get), find and catch sunfish (or do they want to spend summer on boat) etc.). That will help to avoid a lot of confusion.

Edited by Pig Princess
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Friendly Grass    516
1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

Thank you for the guide, especially for the part with approximate time it takes player temperature to drop from 70 to 0. Can you do part 2 with cooling? By the way, recently I found a video where player cooled thermal stone in seconds using flingomatic, torch and burnable object (rope), and while it was impressive, I would like to know how much exactly snowball affects temperature; also I think many players would appreciate technical information about other ways of cooling.

I could be interested in a summer guide, most of the mechanics in winter apply to summer but summer also has very underrated cooling items like luxury fans and chilled amulets. Just looked in the code for how the flingo cooling works. It's very interesting. A snowball completely bypasses the normal 1 degree per second warming/cooling and instantly cools players/thermals by 5 degrees no matter their temperature.

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

Regarding recent guide. You are comparing different ways of keeping warm with unspoken assumption, that every resource is so valuble that player cares about minimizing it's usage (at least to me it seems like that), but that's not always the case. For example, I'm using beefalo hat + thermal stone and I knew about "wasting" beefalo hat part for years. Why am I keeping to do that? For negating disadvantage of using only insulating clothing - inability to use armor in corresponding slots, also I play mostly solo and have more rocks than I can use, so I'm ok with breaking thermals. In exchange for some rocks and flint I gain ability to keep using backpack (relevant in early/mid game, including first winter) and switch to football helmet for quick combat and not freeze in seconds most of the time (if my thermal is white already I heat it beforehand). From that view point it's not "wasting beefalo hat durability because thermals and clothing don't stack", but rather "use beefalo hat normally and have backup heat source in case some expected quick combat with high chance of being hit happens (mactusk, hounds, etc.)".

I totally agree this is a good strat, especially early/mid game, because it covers all situations. You get the duration of the beefalo hat with the perks of the thermal stone. My personal favorite way to counter the downsides of the beefalo hat though is riding a beefalo! You can hold a lantern at night without losing walking cane speed, and you don't need to worry about armor as much.

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Pig Princess    139
5 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

A snowball completely bypasses the normal 1 degree per second warming/cooling and instantly cools players/thermals by 5 degrees no matter their temperature.

Does frequency of snowballs thrown allow to cool thermals and characters faster than standing near more traditional cooling stations, if said flammable object is continiously being lit by something (player of some automatic setup)?

 

5 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

My personal favorite way to counter the downsides of the beefalo hat though is riding a beefalo! You can hold a lantern at night without losing walking cane speed, and you don't need to worry about armor as much.

Yes, speed + light are good, but I personally can't stand that flow of poop. I admit, beefalos are strong (even too strong with some characters), but I loose irl sanity because of manure even with muted flies mod, and I know I'm not the only one. Second problem with beefalo is balance for different characters: Warly needs to constantly dismount to use either crock pot (early game) or bundles (mid/late game), which is extremely annoying, being beefalo ornery or not; Wormwood looses his speed, advantage of cheap dark swords, needs to dismount to plant seeds (although gets free healing via manure, keeps ability to tend during bloom and receives meat shield for melee attacks, problem with that is the higher player skill is, the lesser player is hit in melee, and for ranged attack player still needs to wear armor), Wortox can't soul-hop on beefalo, Wigfrid abilities don't transfer to beefalo, not to mention Woodie unique power. I don't like the fact, that for a lot of characters beefalo make survival identical - I appreciate variety that appeared after reworks and introduction of new characters, but beefalo revert it back for most of the cases. Also items like bat bat finally had their chance to shine, but beefalo took that away; beefalo taming makes important speed breakpoints achieved via different items with variety of side effects achieved trivially (just put basic saddle and you are good, no need for roads, cane, magi, club, character-specific stuff, etc.). Situation with Wendy damage bonus seems like an oversight to me, so I don't tame beefalo as Wendy on principle. But it's a good advice, people struggling with the game and just wanting to survive through any legitimate means definitely should try beefalos.

Also speaking of light: if possible, I'm trying to use miner hat/moggles/glow berry mousse/magi. The less amount of fuel is left in the lantern, the smaller light radius is, which is not the case for miner hat and moggles; also moggles provide better vision when player is insane, which is not the case for lantern and miner hat (and moggles's full screen vision is obvious advantage); glow berry mousse can't fully substitute miner hat/moggles (light radius is smaller than miner hat, diminishes quickly), but I consider it better than lantern because it doesn't take any slot (arm, body or head), so to just run through some area with cane, beefalo hat and backpack it's good enough. Magi, which gives constant light radius and speed, is also preferable over lantern for me if I can afford to not use backpack. In short: lantern lacks utility because of insanity filter, light diminishing proportionally to fuel left, occupying important slot (cane/tool/weapon), lack of maximum fuel capacity for winter nights (so mousse and magi are preferable, mousse protects for twice the amound of time from Charlie, fuel for magi comes to player (not vise versa) and doesn't spoil), and while beefalos help to fix situation, there are problems with beefalos themselves. Lantern is cheap stationary souce of light though, and doesn't occupy any slot when on the ground (beware of monkeys).

Edit: after rereading your comment it seems to me that you mentioned beefalo strategy mostly bacause of armor and competition for the slot between beefalo hat/miner hat and lantern/cane, and even though it wasn't mentioned, light and speed are also important. Have you calculated seconds of keeping warmth/seconds spent to warm up because you value speed extremely high in all situations? And was lantern mentioned just as part of strategy in general? Because suddenly in topic for winter warmth strategy beefalo, light and armor advantages/disadvantages appeared, which are offtopic, sorry for that.

Edited by Pig Princess

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Friendly Grass    516
2 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Does frequency of snowballs thrown allow to cool thermals and characters faster than standing near more traditional cooling stations, if said flammable object is continiously being lit by something (player of some automatic setup)?

For sure. You just need a snowball every 4 seconds or less to break even.

7 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Yes, speed + light are good, but I personally can't stand that flow of poop. I admit, beefalos are strong (even too strong with some characters), but I loose irl sanity because of manure even with muted flies mod, and I know I'm not the only one.

Yeah I know what you mean. But they don’t poop while you’re riding nor when hitched. So when you’re not riding just keep em hitched to a grooming station when possible.

31 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Second problem with beefalo is balance for different characters: Warly needs to constantly dismount to use either crock pot (early game) or bundles (mid/late game), which is extremely annoying, being beefalo ornery or not; Wormwood looses his speed, advantage of cheap dark swords, needs to dismount to plant seeds (although gets free healing via manure, keeps ability to tend during bloom and receives meat shield for melee attacks, problem with that is the higher player skill is, the lesser player is hit in melee, and for ranged attack player still needs to wear armor), Wortox can't soul-hop on beefalo, Wigfrid abilities don't transfer to beefalo, not to mention Woodie unique power.

Almost all characters synergize well enough with a rider beefalo, and don’t underestimate the power of the rider beefalo. Warly’s issue can be mitigated with an insulated pack. Wormwood can still get speed until taming a beefalo (maybe do it later for him?) and needing to dismount to plant seeds doesn’t mean much imo.

33 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I appreciate variety that appeared after reworks and introduction of new characters, but beefalo revert it back for most of the cases. Also items like bat bat finally had their chance to shine, but beefalo took that away; beefalo taming makes important speed breakpoints achieved via different items with variety of side effects achieved trivially (just put basic saddle and you are good, no need for roads, cane, magi, club, character-specific stuff, etc.).

I don’t agree with this mindset tbh. I have the opposite perspective, you get an opportunity to stray from the pedestrian meta you‘ve been using for all time.

37 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Situation with Wendy damage bonus seems like an oversight to me, so I don't tame beefalo as Wendy on principle.

Wendy’s damage bonus is definitely working as intended. It’s a mechanic that she loses her modifier for being physically weak just like Wes. And it’s a mechanic that Abigail makes Wendy do 54% more damage when she’s fighting alongside her. And it’s really not overpowered imo. If you want Wolfgang dps, play Wolfgang.

38 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Also speaking of light: if possible, I'm trying to use miner hat/moggles/glow berry mousse/magi. The less amount of fuel is left in the lantern, the smaller light radius is, which is not the case for miner hat and moggles; also moggles provide better vision when player is insane, which is not the case for lantern and miner hat (and moggles's full screen vision is obvious advantage); glow berry mousse can't fully substitute miner hat/moggles (light radius is smaller than miner hat, diminishes quickly), but I consider it better than lantern because it doesn't take any slot (arm, body or head), so to just run through some area with cane, beefalo hat and backpack it's good enough. Magi, which gives constant light radius and speed, is also preferable over lantern for me if I can afford to not use backpack. In short: lantern lacks utility because of insanity filter, light diminishing proportionally to fuel left, occupying important slot (cane/tool/weapon), lack of maximum fuel capacity for winter nights (so mousse and magi are preferable, mousse protects for twice the amound of time from Charlie, fuel for magi comes to player (not vise versa) and doesn't spoil), and while beefalos help to fix situation, there are problems with beefalos themselves. Lantern is cheap stationary souce of light though, and doesn't occupy any slot when on the ground (beware of monkeys).

The lantern light diminishing does annoy me a little bit, but it’s not like mousse where you get just a faint flicker of light right before it runs out. I *generally* keep both a lantern and miners hat on me so I can use what’s most convenient for the situation, because also if I don’t keep lightbulbs on me just 1 isn’t enough. And magi is amazing, yes.

You can also keep light bulbs in an insulated pack for them to last a while!

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

after rereading your comment it seems to me that you mentioned beefalo strategy mostly bacause of armor and competition for the slot between beefalo hat/miner hat and lantern/cane, and even though it wasn't mentioned, light and speed are also important. Have you calculated seconds of keeping warmth/seconds spent to warm up because you value speed extremely high in all situations? And was lantern mentioned just as part of strategy in general? Because suddenly in topic for winter warmth strategy beefalo, light and armor advantages/disadvantages appeared, which are offtopic, sorry for that.

Yes I didn’t elaborate but that’s what I was thinking about beefalo. The seconds of staying warm per second spent warming up was because I value being able to ignore freezing for longer periods of time, and I like how straightforward it is for insulation.

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Pig Princess    139
2 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

For sure. You just need a snowball every 4 seconds or less to break even.

Good to know, thank you! This definitely needs testing in actual playthrough though.

2 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

But they don’t poop while you’re riding nor when hitched. 

That was welcome change for sure, but they still poop while mounting-dismounting and when not ridden, and this situation can happen at base with hitching station (thank you for the tip!) or outside of it while I need to dismount. In particular I tried it as Wormwood with beefalo in the caves/ruins (I needed to frequently dismount to mine, hammer, repair stuff, wall up monkeys, sort loot in my microbase near pseudoscience station, cook food in some unremarkable part of the map, pick up stuff faster if there was a lot of it, etc.). To fill both cave and surface map with hitching stations seems expensive, but with domestication loss bug fixed I guess salt lick isn't mandatory anymore, so those boards can be spent on hitching station instead.

 

2 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

Almost all characters synergize well enough with a rider beefalo, and don’t underestimate the power of the rider beefalo.

Rider beefalo is barely faster than ornery/default, but unlike ornery/default with war saddle, it doesn't hit breakpoint of 50 damage, and a lot of mobs have 50, 100, 150 (hounds!) or 200 health, so 41 or 50 damage makes difference. If beefalo is used only for travelling, then you still need to carry weapon, armor, etc., moreover, unmounted beefalo is in danger if fight is going on nearby (like hound wave attack or boss fight, rooks are brutal with their 200 damage to mobs). With default saddle ornery/default can kite even tier 3 rook, so speed breakpoint isn't a problem for other tendencies either (not sure about pudgy, but it's not tentency for combat anyway), with glossammer they are still faster than character with cane and magi even if it's blooming Wormwood (outside of the road). Ornery needs to be fed to be remounted, but default doesn't have this downside. So what else rider can offer? Or in what situations that small speed difference is relevant?

2 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

Warly’s issue can be mitigated with an insulated pack. Wormwood can still get speed until taming a beefalo (maybe do it later for him?) and needing to dismount to plant seeds doesn’t mean much imo.

I'm using insulated pack + bundles, thing is, a lot of Warly power comes from food buffs, which means more types of food, more bundles, bundles used in defferent situations (not only to restore hunger). I like to use insulated pack in general even if I'm not playing Warly, so I have less slots compared to krampus sack, and use bundles to compensate that. I'm comfortable with that strategy, but on beefalo back it becomes less convenient (tbh I would like developers to allow to use bundles, I don't see a reason not to). For Wormwood in winter when bloom is harder to maintain beefalo speed should help, it's a good synergy, especially during first winter when beefalo can be easily tamed, but materials for bloom are still relatively expensive. Problem is, if I have beefalo already, why would I spend resources later on to increase hunger drain and NOT gain any speed? And giving up part of unique power because of efficiency is sad. Especially since if I plant seeds (of which I care) in big quantities in short amount of time I can use one-man-band or spring free bloom. There is also another category of seeds that can be picked where bird left them and planted instantly just for +10 sanity. On beefalo that last type of seed planting is much less efficient since a lot more time is wasted (and resources if ornery beefalo). Which means I'm discouraged of gaining sanity via planting in the wilds (need to ignore seeds/dedicate inventory slot for them) and leaving free food for others in multiplayer.

 

2 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

I don’t agree with this mindset tbh. I have the opposite perspective, you get an opportunity to stray from the pedestrian meta you‘ve been using for all time.

It may be refreshing game changer, since a lot of people consider just walking from point A to point B boring, but there are other solutions of that problem, like not just walking, but rather gathering materials along the way. Also it's just my opinion and many would disagree, but I find system of speed tresholds and big variety of items to cross them interesting, especially because side/secondary useful effects. Coffee debates seem similar in that regard (whether it should be added/be good for balance of the game or not). It's perfectry fine to disagree though.

2 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

Wendy’s damage bonus is definitely working as intended... And it’s really not overpowered imo. If you want Wolfgang dps, play Wolfgang.

I know it's intended and I desagree with that both from the sides of balance and lore (it's not actually Wendy, it's beefalo who deals damage, but code sees dealing damage entity as Wendy, although her debuff isn't applied, which seems inconsistent to me, and I'd prefer +10% damage buff). I didn't say I wanted Wolfgaing levels of dsp, what is that from? I don't need it, and I don't tame a beefalo as Wendy; also I don't play Wofgang for similar reason (too easily gained bonus, too annoying and inconsistent to maintain (but not hard and it doesn't require much skill), too boring gameplay in general, too similar to Wilson). But that's just my opinion.

2 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

mousse where you get just a faint flicker of light right before it runs out

I'm not using mousse for light radius and to actually see, for that there are moggles, miner hat and lantern (the latter falls behind compared to the first 2 in most cases and in all relevant to me cases), mousse/magi I use to just quickly cross some distance while being protected from both darkness and freezing, it's usually when area isn't new to me. I feel bad playing Warly and not using mousse for winter nights, especially since I like to clear as much inventory space as possible before going somewhere, so I tend to leave lightbulbs in the ice box, but for food buffs I have dedicated bundle already, so no extra inventory space is occupied. I still use lantern in winter when I don't have mousse/magi though, or need to use backpack without mousse available. But I think I may switch to puffy vest + beefalo hat/miner hat in the end, since I have chester in solo worlds, it's not like my strategy solidified already and forever. Oh, and if I just need some kind of Charlie protection, orange thermal stone is good enough and doesn't consume fuel, is easy to recharge.

Edited by Pig Princess

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Friendly Grass    516
51 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Rider beefalo is barely faster than ornery/default, but unlike ornery/default with war saddle, it doesn't hit breakpoint of 50 damage, and a lot of mobs have 50, 100, 150 (hounds!) or 200 health, so 41 or 50 damage makes difference. If beefalo is used only for travelling, then you still need to carry weapon, armor, etc., moreover, unmounted beefalo is in danger if fight is going on nearby (like hound wave attack or boss fight, rooks are brutal with their 200 damage to mobs). With default saddle ornery/default can kite even tier 3 rook, so speed breakpoint isn't a problem for other tendencies either (not sure about pudgy, but it's not tentency for combat anyway), with glossammer they are still faster than character with cane and magi even if it's blooming Wormwood (outside of the road). Ornery needs to be fed to be remounted, but default doesn't have this downside. So what else rider can offer? Or in what situations that small speed difference is relevant?

 

Obviously the rider should not be used for combat other than maybe the occasional stray batilisk/hound/whatever. It's about 15% faster which might seem small on paper but that's 15% faster than an already incredibly fast speed. And, it doesn't have the ornery downside. A large portion of this game is walking and speed is huge. Yes, unmounted beefalo can be fairly fragile and even suicidal, but it is much easier to control them with the bell now.

I think you should just try out a beefalo and see if you like it. They might not be for you, and that's okay. Wait, how did the conversation get here again?

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