HeilerderWelten

The 4 most overpowered characters and how to balance them?

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QuQuasar    814
9 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Wendy can dodge, and Wendy can make Abigail dodge.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Abigail can't dodge, not without the player cutting hits off of the end of their kiting pattern so Abigail has time to catch up. You also have to accept that your initial hit during each kite won't be buffed because Abigail needs to catch up. And speed boost items provide no help, since you're still limited by Abigail's speed unless you use the speed boost potion.

Kiting bosses with Abigail in tow results in a lower damage output than WIlson, and will get her killed the moment you mess up. It is simply not worth it except as a challenge. Kiting is without a doubt Wendy's weakness (which is fitting for the character who specializes in crowd control and indirect combat).

 

9 hours ago, Cheggf said:

But even if what you said were true that's just another upside since you can get much easier dodging by just giving Abigail some sippy cups and she tanks for you.

With Abi's inability to wear armour and boss's double damage vs mobs, it is far harder to farm enough cure-all's to outlast them than it is to collect marble suits and dragonpies like a normal person. Plus nobody but Wendy can do pipspook quests, so you have to do all the farming yourself rather than offloading it to Wormwood or Maxwell players.

The point remains: Tackling bosses with Wendy is possible, but involves a lot of preparation and resources.

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Cheggf    2588
3 minutes ago, QuQuasar said:

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Abigail can't dodge, not without the player cutting hits off of the end of their kiting pattern so Abigail has time to catch up. You also have to accept that your initial hit during each kite won't be buffed because Abigail needs to catch up. And speed boost items provide no help, since you're still limited by Abigail's speed unless you use the speed boost potion.

Kiting bosses with Abigail in tow results in a lower damage output than WIlson, and will get her killed the moment you mess up. It is simply not worth it except as a challenge. Kiting is without a doubt Wendy's weakness (which is fitting for the character who specializes in crowd control and indirect combat).

 

With Abi's inability to wear armour and boss's double damage vs mobs, it is far harder to farm enough cure-all's to outlast them than it is to collect marble suits and dragonpies like a normal person. Plus nobody but Wendy can do pipspook quests, so you have to do all the farming yourself rather than offloading it to Wormwood or Maxwell players.

The point remains: Tackling bosses with Wendy is possible, but involves a lot of preparation and resources.

Have you even fought bosses as Wendy?

https://youtu.be/jzKQScPgyPU?t=544

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
13 minutes ago, QuQuasar said:

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Abigail can't dodge, not without the player cutting hits off of the end of their kiting pattern so Abigail has time to catch up. You also have to accept that your initial hit during each kite won't be buffed because Abigail needs to catch up. And speed boost items provide no help, since you're still limited by Abigail's speed unless you use the speed boost potion.

Kiting bosses with Abigail in tow results in a lower damage output than WIlson, and will get her killed the moment you mess up. It is simply not worth it except as a challenge. Kiting is without a doubt Wendy's weakness (which is fitting for the character who specializes in crowd control and indirect combat).

this is only applied if you want abi to dodge aoe atack from the few bosses that have it. With non aoe bosses you only need to kite as always (but not to early) to make the boss atack wendy instead of abi. So yes, abi is sooo worth for fighting bosses because of how much damage she adds

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Cheggf    2588
6 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

this is only applied if you want abi to dodge aoe atack from the few bosses that have it. With non aoe bosses you only need to kite as always (but not to early) to make the boss atack wendy instead of abi. So yes, abi is sooo worth for fighting bosses because of how much damage she adds

Yeah, exactly. And just look at the few bosses with AoE. Deerclops, who everyone tanks anyways since that's the better option. Bearger, who everyone kills via treeguards since him being a lumberjack is the better option. Toadstool, who no one fights since his drops are mostly decorational but even if you do fight him his AoE attacks are very slow and easy to have Abigail dodge without losing much damage. She really isn't missing out on much. 

Edited by Cheggf
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Mysterious box    535
4 hours ago, CremeLover said:

I see the 1e06f228074c5021ac9ed7f536f6ac.pngWendybroken_heart.png gang still maintain a strong grip over this thread.

Let's try to come up with some nerfs in a hopeless and deluded attempt to keep everyone happy. Or I'll just come back in two days to read the next 3 pages of why Wendy is broken and Mike vs The World.

-Remove Wendy's extra damage modifier from Abigail's buff, so no more sister privilege.

-Remove default shield, make it a Tonic only feature. You want her to survive? Try making some tonics more than twice a year.

-Make an extra flower state: level 0
Abigail cannot be summoned until it reaches level 1, the 150 health one. When Abigail dies, she goes back to level 0. You better have a Sisturn up.

-OH NO, YOUR SISTER IS DEAD
Abigail dying again shatters your world and your sanity is set to zero. Better take care of your undead family next time.

This gives Wendy a downside removing her single target damage, and makes Abigail harder to keep alive since her shield is gone and punishes you for letting her die. Also keeps her AoE powers intact provided you take proper care of Abigail.

 

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Sees OP's underlined "overpowered" characters: Wicker, Wolf, WX, Wortox.

Sees last 4 pages of "pls nerf Wendy, KLei, it breaks my game, no meaningful punishing downside, no fun, day ruined".

.....

Profit?! :distant:

I can't help help but feel responsible for some reason...

image.png.30cc12b43c052638c42fd7ac5a48d50d.png

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
6 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Yeah, exactly. And just look at the few bosses with AoE. Deerclops, who everyone tanks anyways since that's the better option. Bearger, who everyone kills via treeguards since him being a lumberjack is the better option. Toadstool, who no one fights since his drops are mostly decorational but even if you do fight him his AoE attacks are very slow and easy to have Abigail dodge without losing much damage. She really isn't missing out on much. 

and, if you tank deerclops, abi can resist most of the fight adding a lot of dps which doesnt matter because you can kill him ez&chill kiting with the beequeen crown obtained in autum for few resources and abi can easily kite toads phase 1 and 2 mushbooms with her speed elixir and, if you miss, she will not receive so much damage because only 1 mush will hit her, the others will explote in her shield

 

people should try things before talking

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

 

it was a logical step, we are talking about the "most overpowered" characters and OP left 1 that is actually stronger than wortox and wicker imo

Edited by ArubaroBeefalo
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QuQuasar    814
29 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Have you even fought bosses as Wendy?

https://youtu.be/jzKQScPgyPU?t=544

Yes, by tanking them after simulating the fight a few times in a test world. This is unexpected. Every time I tried kiting Dragonfly in test worlds she simply killed Abigail in a few hits, healing or no. I assumed she operated the same as other single hit enemies that redirect the damage to Abigail.

Perhaps it is because I thought her range was higher and you had to be quite a bit further away to kite her? I may not have been baiting her attacks properly as a result.

Edited by QuQuasar
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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
5 minutes ago, QuQuasar said:

Yes, by tanking them after simulating the fight a few times in a test world. This is unexpected. Every time I tried kiting Dragonfly in test worlds she simply killed Abigail in a few hits, healing or no. I assumed she operated the same as other single hit enemies that redirect the damage to Abigail.

Perhaps it is because I thought her range was higher and you had to be quite a bit further away to kite her? I may not have been baiting her attacks properly as a result.

with df you have to kite perfectly or abi will hit her after you making df change the aggro

if you kite to early df will hit her (which also makes the fight easier because she tank the few hit you miss to kite)

Edited by ArubaroBeefalo

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Cheggf    2588
1 minute ago, QuQuasar said:

Yes, by tanking them after simulating the fight a few times in a test world. This is unexpected. Every time I tried kiting Dragonfly in test worlds she simply killed Abigail in a few hits, healing or no. I assumed she operated the same as other single hit enemies that redirect the damage to Abigail.

Perhaps it is because I thought her range was higher and you had to be quite a bit further away to kite her? I may not have been baiting her attacks properly as a result.

Unless the enemy has a cleaving attack, you can prevent Abigail from being damaged without making her dodge against every single enemy in the game if you're dodging properly. If you're bad at dodging you can also have Abigail on default instead of riled to make her less likely to draw aggro, to allow you to dodge poorly but still keep Abigail safe. Although she still might get hit sometimes if you're doing that, it's better to just dodge better.

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Unless the enemy has a cleaving attack

serious question, because that kind of atack is hard to notice, there is any other boss than fw that have this kind of atack?

Edited by ArubaroBeefalo

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QuQuasar    814

Okay, I can see why the expert players are so up in arms in this thread, now. I guess I've been redirecting a lot more damage to Abigail than I needed to by dodging too soon, because I hate taking risks and never quite shook the fear of death that classic Don't Starve ingrained in me.

Admittedly though, that suits me fine. Without knowing this, Wendy is powerful without being overpowered.

I'd support a nerf that gives all single-hit enemies the ability to redirect their hit to Abigail if they miss Wendy, assuming she's in range.

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Mike23Ua    9708
14 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

this is only applied if you want abi to dodge aoe atack from the few bosses that have it. With non aoe bosses you only need to kite as always (but not to early) to make the boss atack wendy instead of abi. So yes, abi is sooo worth for fighting bosses because of how much damage she adds

 

Spoiler

This sounds more like a problem with how horribly bland bosses are (or how easily exploitable certain tactics are against said bosses..) and LESS of a problem with Abigail.

If all y’all want is for her to suck at boss fights just give each boss an attack that auto targets and one hit kills Abigail and is 100% completely unavoidable.

Problem solved.. now can we move onto the actual Problems.. such as bosses with exploits that could be improved or characters that haven’t been reworked yet.

NO ONE expected crops to become what they are now: those are some massive changes to a feature that has remained exactly the same for many many years until RWYS completely reimagined them.

Who here outside of Klei’s Dev team can sit here and tell me that they don’t ALSO plan to rework combat, or boss/mob behavior or even remove some of the “Meta Methods” of fighting bosses which may or may not be considered as cheating or cheese depending on player by player personal preferences..

Case in point: Klei went through the trouble of designing exploding Larvae bugs for Dragonfly’s fight & yet all people do is build the Great Wall of China to completely avoid what should OTHERWISE Be a legitimate part of the uniqueness/danger of this particular fight.

And then people complain that “Wendy OP please Nerf..” when there are far far worse tactics people can use to fight with that makes anything Wendy can do look like Child’s Play.

There even SOME Completely broken absurd but 100% legit combinations players can use to make these fights hilariously easy. Mighty Wolfgang + Wendy Petal Buff + Warly special dish = Boss dead before you can even so much as Blink..

And THAT Is a Legit non exploit thing players can do that can trivialize every single threat in the entire game.

My point is that I’m confident that Klei knows exactly what there doing: And if Wendy hasn’t been touched since March of last year I’m pretty sure they’re happy with where her gameplay settles now.

And: To finalize my statement I would like to just point out that finding lost things for Pipspook used to be spread over larger distances of the map and Wendy had to go through a moderately time consuming quest of finding lost stuff for Pipspook (I personally LOVED the longer quests..) but people complained about how time consuming it was and Klei then significantly shortened the distance between finding all that stuff.

Ignoring everyone’s replies of “Wendy doesn’t need Pipspook Abigails OP enough without them” The Pipspook and Ectoherbology WAS Wendy’s ENTIRE Rework.. it’s where all of her kit and power comes from. And it WAS a moderately time consuming part of playing Wendy..

Its the PLAYERS faults (and not Klei’s) for having them cry that finding lost stuff was too time consuming so now it’s been significantly shortened to be trivial at its best.. 

Your not seeing that the Set up and preparation of gathering Abigails potions WAS a large part of Wendy’s (Reworked) Downside.. 

Sure: I suppose further balance changes could be made such as removing the ability to heal Abigail by ANY OTHER MEANS BESIDES HER POTIONS.. or make it so that her flower needs to bloom before you can summon Abigail after she dies.

But as far as I’m concerned you already had the largest part of playing (reworked) Wendy Nerfed.. and that was going on moderately longer quests to find the lost stuffs.

I’m spoiler tagging my entire post because the Ops original post doesn’t even mention Wendy.. so I fail to understand how this topic exploded into this massive Wendy Love/Hate gang.

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Picklesaurus    345
19 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

serious question, because that kind of atack is hard to notice, there is any other boss than fw that have this kind of atack?

Does beager swipe atk count? Maybe I'm wrong, but he seems to hit any player in it's range, even if it wasn't the one attacking him/holding his aggro. 

 

Edited by Picklesaurus

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
15 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This sounds more like a problem with how horribly bland bosses are (or how easily exploitable certain tactics are against said bosses..) and LESS of a problem with Abigail.

If all y’all want is for her to suck at boss fights just give each boss an attack that auto targets and one hit kills Abigail and is 100% completely unavoidable.

where is the problem of making abi useful is boss fights? the problem is that she can protect wendy for free and no effort

surviving hound atacks by just being afk isnt fun and isnt a good game mechanic at all that is the only real danger for players. Having access to versatil ways of killing bosses is fun (if it doesnt become in just press F and kill 1 minute like wolfg+voltgoat jelly) so i dont see why you want to desing a boss just to kill abi when already there is few like bearger or shadow rook. It will not change how easy and dumb is surviving as wendy

15 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Ignoring everyone’s replies of “Wendy doesn’t need Pipspook Abigails OP enough without them” The Pipspook and Ectoherbology WAS Wendy’s ENTIRE Rework.. it’s where all of her kit and power comes from. And it WAS a moderately time consuming part of playing Wendy..

the entire rework was changing the way of summoning her, adding a shield and giving a damage buff for players. Elixirs are just an addon for certain niche situations. I dont see why would you use a elixir out side of a frog rain or a boss fight unless the player has no idea of playing the game

about cheesing df... you were the guy who complain for many pages about how "impossible and grindy" is that fight alone. Klei lets you use walls to make it easier (you dont have to wall all the ponds if you wanna fight lavaes or any if you use ice staff) so i dont see why you complain about cheesing now and even less because the complain isnt about she doing single target damage at the level of wigfrid, is because she has that damage+a stupid aoe damage that kills HUGE numbers of enemies without any help

making a character versatil: okay

making a character too strong that doesnt need to do a **** to survive: wrong

i will just stop arguing with you, as always is a non sense

11 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

Does beager normal atk count? Maybe I'm wrong, but he seems to hit any player in it's range, even if it wasn't the one attacking him/holding his aggro. 

 

he hits from behind too as i can remember. With cleave atack i understand  atacks that only deals damage in front of the enemy 

for example fw: if you let abi near you she will die but if you make her be behind fw she will not receive any damage

 

Edited by ArubaroBeefalo
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Mike23Ua    9708
2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

where is the problem of making abi useful is boss fights? the problem is that she can protect wendy for free and no effort

making a character versatil: okay

making a character too strong that doesnt need to do a **** to survive: wrong

 

From what everyone is saying (and showing) about fighting bosses with Abigail these require skill, almost expert levels of knowing the games timing patterns.. and being anything more than a casual player to pull off.

The changes you wanting nerfed/removed: are in place for people WHO CAN’T perform these expert precision kiting patterns, who likely get Abigail Killed more often then they can effectively pull this off..

Its like saying someone who has gotten really really good at kiting/using Abigail shouldn’t have that much power.. that power isn’t in place for you...

it’s there for people who actually NEED it.. the ones who still struggle, & die.

Its roughly the same as someone who has effectively found a way of mastering using all 3 of Woodies Transformation idols in a single combat scenario by using the idols and whatever items they may need to make effective use out of them with precise timing.

You simply got TOO GOOD at playing as Wendy and now your complaining she trivializes the game for you. I seriously don’t get it.

But like I said.. if Klei wants her to be horrible at bosses they will change those bosses to auto target and destroy Abigail.

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QuQuasar    814
14 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m spoiler tagging my entire post because the Ops original post doesn’t even mention Wendy.. so I fail to understand how this topic exploded into this massive Wendy Love/Hate gang.

That's fair. It occurs to me that it's kind of messed up that the thread that was supposed to be about making the strongman, the emotionless robot and the literal demon feel bad about their existence turned into "let's trash talk the grieving child whose twin sister just died!"

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CremeLover    396
Just now, Mike23Ua said:

But like I said.. if Klei wants her to be horrible at bosses they will change those bosses to auto target and destroy Abigail.

What everyone is saying is the exact opposite, their argument is that Abigail trivialized the regular content by just "skipping mobs and other encounters" since she's too good for every one of them, as well as being good against bosses, and her upsides vastly overwhelm her x0.75 dmg multiplier that barely gets to play.

While there's a point to this, I see no real ideas of what to do with her, other than a vague idea of making her good for bosses, while diminishing her effectiveness with crowds so that more player input is required. Some suggestions get to a point where I almost feel the vision is to invert Abigail's original design, making her good at bosses and somewhat okay at crowds, which is a philosophy I disagree with.

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

From what everyone is saying (and showing) about fighting bosses with Abigail these require skill, almost expert levels of knowing the games timing patterns.. and being anything more than a casual player to pull off.

The changes you wanting nerfed/removed: are in place for people WHO CAN’T perform these expert precision kiting patterns, who likely get Abigail Killed more often then they can effectively pull this off..

fighting in this game isnt like a dark souls of something, is just pressing F and im not complaing about reward player who do it well im complaining about abi making all the job even when the player makes mistakes. Is so hard to die as wendy because abi kill you everything without using a single brain cell. 

the only change i said she should have is nerfing abi damage from 40 to 30 or something like that so wendy must help abi to fight but keeping a good aoe damage, you are putting works in my mouth

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

it’s there for people who actually NEED it.. the ones who still struggle, & die.

players need to learn not having a bot that makes all the job, in that way they will never learn. How will new players lose the fear of fight if abi kills hounds, monkeys, spiders, etc easily? 

 

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You simply got TOO GOOD at playing as Wendy and now your complaining she trivializes the game for you. I seriously don’t get it.

im not too good in any game and playing wendy is just boring because even when i make mistakes like being outside of base without armor/weapon/hp i know i will survive because i have a aoe damage hambat that tanks for me and kills for me. Her mechanics and rewards for doing a good job against mobs that might kill her are fun but having total inmunity against hounds and other threads is just boring. The old abigail was that strong because she could die for many days but now is hard to lose her and you can summon her back when you want but klei decided to keep the damage of a weak abi in a so hard to kill abi because people complained about not being able to kill 100 spiders in few seconds  (they only needed to be at 75% health as wendy to achieve the same damage but people complain before trying and much more if it requiere an effort)

i dont know why you are taking this that far when is as simple as changing a little her damage but i guess having a god mode is what people wants

and dont worry, klei will not nerf abi because she is the most played character (what a surprise in a game that most of the mods are cheats) and that gives money

5 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

What everyone is saying is the exact opposite, their argument is that Abigail trivialized the regular content by just "skipping mobs and other encounters" since she's too good for every one of them, as well as being good against bosses, and her upsides vastly overwhelm her x0.75 dmg multiplier that barely gets to play.

While there's a point to this, I see no real ideas of what to do with her, other than a vague idea of making her good for bosses, while diminishing her effectiveness with crowds so that more player input is required. Some suggestions get to a point where I almost feel the vision is to invert Abigail's original design, making her good at bosses and somewhat okay at crowds, which is a philosophy I disagree with.

she was so good at crowd control because was so easy to die but now she can handle much more damage and can be recalled. the rework was about making the twins fight together but it ended on new players surviving by free, veterans (atleast me) being bored because there is no interaction  most of the time (which i see a shame because she is one of the classic characters) and a cool tool for big fights

anyways, they did a good job but they didnt calc the numbers. Atleast she is way more fun than before and has a versatil kit for boss fights

 

edit: also her original original desing was never to be a noob friendly character. She was always one of the hardest

she was hunted by abi, not helped, having less damage than wilson. Later they change this and made abi help wendy for farming spiders and other minor mobs but at the cost of not controlling her which was a good trade off but boring

now is just good at everything except for mining and chopping with the adition of having inmunity against crowds on demand since you dont need to wait to summon her and you dont need to kill a mob to do it (and is way harder to kill her)

Edited by ArubaroBeefalo

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Mysterious box    535
41 minutes ago, QuQuasar said:

That's fair. It occurs to me that it's kind of messed up that the thread that was supposed to be about making the strongman, the emotionless robot and the literal demon feel bad about their existence turned into "let's trash talk the grieving child whose twin sister just died!"

image.thumb.png.dded80d6e1c61ebeb2af4fff87a11d5c.png

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Shosuko    2616
4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Have you even fought bosses as Wendy?

https://youtu.be/jzKQScPgyPU?t=544

Dragonfly is an easy one because Dfly will rarely redirect her hits to Abigail.  Moosegoose will almost always hit Abigail if she does not hit a player.  I believe other monsters are similar, its not just aoe vs single target.  Abigail is not a great tank against bosses either.  If you do the firepit facetank deerclops you need to give Abi a big heal pot or she will not survive long.  She cannot be used against Bearger at all, no matter what potion.  Large hound waves during the day can get through her too.  I don't really use Wendy to fight bosses so I only know the basic ones but I'm sure other bosses have similar issues with targeting and damage output.

Not to say Wendy / Abi isn't OP, they do a LOT, but its less boss clears.  Besides Wolfgang is the only one who can solo stun dfly, even Wendy with Abi can't do that.  Although for best results you bring them both lol  Wolf with Abi is pretty OP, just add Warly dishes for lulz on top.

Edited by Shosuko
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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
39 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

If you do the firepit facetank deerclops you need to give Abi a big heal pot or she will not survive long

 

39 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

but I'm sure other bosses have similar issues with targeting and damage output.

Only aoe bosses gives problems and klaus' deers(which can be cheesed if the player has no problem with that kind of strats). Bee queen, toad (1st and 2nd phase), df and malbatross dont hit her if you are hitting them and, in case you miss, the damage isnt so much so you will use few health elixirs (which is cheap with the damage she adds)

Ck and antlion cant hurt her so free dramage with no worries (the only thing is that you cant keep ck freeze to gain time) and fw ,if you manage abi's position, can cant hurt her with his normal atack, the other atacks hurt her but for that are the elixirs, nothing crazy for the last boss

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Shosuko    2616
5 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:
Spoiler

 

 

So that part where I said she wouldn't live long without a potion inspired you to share a video where she indeed does not live long without a potion....  ?

also 

 

6 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

... dont hit her if you are hitting them...

Exactly what I said... and

6 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and, in case you miss, the damage isnt so much so you will use few health elixirs ...

yeah as I said....  idkw you're responding to me here.

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Cheggf    2588
29 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

So that part where I said she wouldn't live long without a potion inspired you to share a video where she indeed does not live long without a potion....  ?

She was up for 20s and down for 7s lmao. She didn't even die, either. Second clip shows her surviving the entire fight with a single easy cheap potion.

Edited by Cheggf
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