HeilerderWelten

The 4 most overpowered characters and how to balance them?

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Seero    1143
7 minutes ago, viberr said:

green caps raw does not help you

gotta get dat nightmare fuel

 

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Seero    1143
5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

3) Wolfgang getting food is not a downside.  The game literally shoves food in your face after the first season and Wolfgang fighting things naturally produces this food.  Even if all you had to do was stand still for a minute it would be a bigger penalty than Wolfgang needing to eat.  Especially considering his speed buff and combat kit there is really no argument that getting food is somehow a chore for him...

 

 

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Quit exaggerating things.

 

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Shosuko    2616
6 minutes ago, Seero said:

 

 

Do I need to show you chests of stonfruits and bundlewraps full of meats, salt boxes and fridges full of rotting food to prove this to you? lol

Every hound wave, boss, frog rain, ect is just more and more meat.  Disease is gone too so its easy to have a field of berries, stonefruits, and kelps where ever you need.  Food is the least problem in the game after the first season.

I've heard potatoes are super easy to farm too, but I haven't gotten into the farming stuff yet to know myself.

Edited by Shosuko
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Seero    1143
3 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Do I need to show you chests of stonfruits and bundlewraps full of meats, salt boxes and fridges full of rotting food to prove this to you? lol

Every hound wave, boss, frog rain, ect is just more and more meat.  Disease is gone too so its easy to have a field of berries, stonefruits, and kelps where ever you need.  Food is the least problem in the game after the first season.

I've heard potatoes are super easy to farm too, but I haven't gotten into the farming stuff yet to know myself.

Definitely an exaggeration if this is all

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viberr    1211
8 minutes ago, Seero said:

Definitely an exaggeration if this is all

i don't think so 

(also congrats on 1000 klei points:wilson_smile:)

also jeez this thread has reached page 5 just because of wendy 

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Mike23Ua    9707
14 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

How about instead of nerfing characters, we get new harder challenges? I really don't like the idea of characters being nerfed.

This.. with Return of Them updates still on-going and 7 more characters that need to be reworked, There’s room to add more challenges to or even modes of play to the game. Rather than just looking at how characters play NOW and saying X character is OP please Nerf.

Thank You @ShadowDuelist 

I only discuss Wolfgang, WX78, Wilson and Wes because of how boring and basic I feel their CURRENT playstyles are and I’m hoping Klei delivers on their promise of “we expect our character reworks to make each character feel unique, rewarding & helpful in their own right, and we expect these changes to be game changing in many ways.”

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Shosuko    2616
5 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

How about instead of nerfing characters, we get new harder challenges? I really don't like the idea of characters being nerfed.

This is kinda part of why nerfs are needed though.  If every monster scales up based on Wolfgang + Warly buff + whatever else, what do the other characters do?  There must be some semblance of balance before you can fairly push the limits of what a character can do.

As I said I think just capping people to their biggest buff should help a lot, in this way Wolfgang can still be 100% damage boost out the gate giving him the early advantage, but once players can stock up on Warly dishes most characters can come close without him jumping up again.  Also it could open up design space for other types of bonuses since they wouldn't need to balance around the edge case of "what if a player took ALL of them, how do we challenge that?"

Edited by Shosuko
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Mike23Ua    9707

I want each character in the entire game to become more like Pokémon- as in.. they each have something they’re Best & Worst at.

Examples could be maybe WX78 is best at fighting enemies with Electrical attacks that can Heal Him, Meanwhile he would be Worst at dealing with any mob that douses him in Water/Ice.. (Ice Hound, Spittle Fish, Deerclops etc..)

Wolfgang can Be Mighty against X & Mighty Scared against Y

WENDY already sort of has this: Best against Large Groups of Mobs, Worst at fighting Shadow Monsters.

If every character had a Best & Worst set of mobs to fight then proper balance would happen.

Wolfgang wouldnt just be Mighty all the time with no Myriad of Phobias.

Wes wouldn't be 125% expendable.. they would EACH have a mob/thing they’re Best & Worst at doing.

Willow also already sort of has this: Immune to fire, single best Shadow creature killer in the game, Weakness being cold so Ice, Spittlefish, Deerclops would put her in the same boat with WX78.

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ShadowDuelist    8243
45 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

This is kinda part of why nerfs are needed though.  If every monster scales up based on Wolfgang + Warly buff + whatever else, what do the other characters do?  There must be some semblance of balance before you can fairly push the limits of what a character can do.

Not really, what I meant about new challenges not necessarily relate to fighting.

Remember the Gorge, where everyone was doing their best in a coordinate manner and their skillsets were quite different in most cases (EG: A Wes, WX and Maxwell team). Yet they all worked against the clock for a common goal, doing very different things, and no fighting was involved.

Everyone can do everything, but yet most characters have specific advantages into one or more than one of these categories, with varying degrees of power levels:

  • Non-food resources gathering  (Wood, Stone, grass, reeds, silk, living logs, etc)
  • Food related perks (generation of ingredients, processing, etc)
  • Mobility perks
  • Healing and/or defensive perks (for themselves and others)
  • Offensive perks (this can be directly, through boosts, and through constructions or mobs)

Maybe new challenges could include that some members of the team are fighting hard while others are chopping trees, or making food as fast as they can, and no character can be doing all at the same time.

 

Edited by ShadowDuelist
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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
7 hours ago, QuQuasar said:

It's probably worth noting that Wendy does have one significant weakness: her inability to kite with Abigail in tow

Which boss cant be kite meanwhile you use abi?

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Cheggf    2588
7 hours ago, QuQuasar said:

It's probably worth noting that Wendy does have one significant weakness: her inability to kite with Abigail in tow

Wendy can dodge, and Wendy can make Abigail dodge. But even if what you said were true that's just another upside since you can get much easier dodging by just giving Abigail some sippy cups and she tanks for you.

15 hours ago, bruhmoment23 said:

Wendy's "key" downside is the 25% dmg decrease, but even then it's sorta nulified

Sorta nullified? It is entirely nullified. Ever since her rework she hasn't had a 25% damage penalty because whenever Abigail attacks something, which is always except against Shadow Creatures, it increases Wendy's damage from 0.75x to 1.155x. She has a damage increase, not decrease.

15 hours ago, bruhmoment23 said:

She doesn't stand in the same spotlight as Wolfgang or Wx, because both of these characters are bland and stupidly overpowered.

lol what

Edited by Cheggf
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Mike23Ua    9707

Okay so how exactly having Wendy’s downside “almost” entirely nullified (and I say almost because Abigail won’t help her fight TerrorClaw, Crawling Horror, TerrorBeak + Whatever other inevitable new shadow monsters Klei decides to add later.)

How is that ANY Different from Woodies Downside of chopping too much Wood with Lucy Axe triggering his Werecurse now being completely removed from the game and INSTEAD he can now craft totems to trigger those transformations at his own will?

You guys are just being incredibly biased towards Wendy.

Meanwhile Woodie who was already super good at chopping Wood at game breaking paces can now do so with the only thing getting in his way being a few easily out walkable tree guardians.. and in ADDITION To his tree chopping powers he gained TWO additional forms for faster movement speed (which can also travel over water) and a hulking Moose form that can be used in combat for pretty decent but Not OP effect.

The character who was all about Chop, Chop, Chop now has an all around good kit: But hilariously you see people COMPLAINING about that Kit rather than praising it for how good it is.

In the same light: People just can’t leave Wendy well enough alone, if you find her too easy to play as maybe don’t play as her? But it’s not enough to warrant Nerfs to her character.

Baring in mind that anytime Klei has to circle back around and re-Tweak Already reworked characters means that we don’t ever get to the ones who HAVEN’T been refreshed yet.. I would say your arguing about Wendy being OP is on Par with how Woodie become all around good pick rather than just being the guy who chops forests down.

the characters we SHOULD be discussing are only the ones that Have NOT been reworked yet- because those are the ones that are DEFIANTLY going to be changed.. Meanwhile the ones who have already been reworked likely won’t get a second tune up until Klei is done with the update chains.

it’s only fair that the people patiently awaiting Webber’s rework actually GOT that Rework rather than Nerf Wendy, Buff Winona, Make Willow an actual Pyrokinetic X-man, Revert Woodie to his old way of play! (All the cries Klei hears frequently from the community)

But like I said discussing the ones that HAVE NOT Been reworked yet, should be our main focus: Because that is content that we KNOW is going to be altered, we know changes (for better or worse) are destined to happen to those characters.

Discussing how much Already reworked characters need changed is a moot point:

Forum members have been wanting Nerfs to Wendy ever since MARCH of last Year and Nerfs haven’t happened yet, at the same time players have been wanting BUFFS to Winona’s kit since before March.. and that hasn’t happened yet either.

Conclusion: Focus on what’s still to come on the Roadmap rather than what’s already been done.

Edited by Mike23Ua
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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Conclusion: Focus on what’s still to come on the Roadmap rather than what’s already been done

Because changing a number to make a character interesting instead of just and afk killer machine doesnt take time. Also, klei work will be for nothing if they did something and doesnt work well like the fire song for wigfrid, doesnt matter the future if the present doesnt work

Dont compare woodie with wendy, he doesnt have downside in human form because the downsides comes when you are in an altered form: not access to inventory (no healing and not being able to stop freezing and overhesting), sanity drop, -20hp whenthe idol is consumed and each form has his own downsides less speed, less damage or only being able to run. Simple as that.

And klei isnt removing downsides  or you didnt read how much times i said how strongs are wortox and walter downsides? Stop ignoring things that arent convenient to your argumentation

Btw, if his job is chopping but he cant because slow minibosses are disturbing him how is that op?

Pls, dont take that personal people saying that wendy is op and try to think about what people said. And about people who considere wendy op not playing her can be applied to your many request of making a wes with no downsides. You are always asking for an uncomproming experience but you dont want to see how op is wendy that trivialize surviving and how convinient for the game is wes for make that surviving a little more difficult

Edited by ArubaroBeefalo

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Well-met    5151
24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You guys are just being incredibly biased towards Wendy.

The person with a wendy profile picture, playing on console and maining wendy is probably a little biased aswell.

Even moreso when your best argument yet in favor of her mechanics is "what if they add more content?"

I am still curious for you to explain to me what this new "Hardcore Mode" is. I haven't heard of it 

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Mike23Ua    9707

My best argument is that other characters outside of Wendy’s downsides have become almost completely nullified.

Woodie chopping all the wood he wants and forcing his own transformations.

Willow having a object that protects her from her biggest weaknesses cold & going insane while cold.

Winona getting hungry when crafting can be countered by taking advantage of bulk crafting things with her speed crafting perk.

Wormwood being able to heal using the various fertilizers RWYS introduced, no Sanity penalties from wetness and forced self bloom for move speed buff without the bees attacking him like they used to.

Wigfrids inability to eat anything other than Meat reduced by various new meat sources, Wigfrid getting more uses out of her weapons & Armor by using Weaponized Warble scroll.

They’re ALL becoming easier to pick up & play, and I fail to see how that’s such a bad thing.

Yes I’m probably the largest advocate for harder content: but that should come in the form of OTHER METHODS, such as new biomes, triggered world altering events, hardcore “uncompromising” game modes.

The downsides are becoming more manageable rather you all like it or not... and I predict the reason WHY is so the game becomes more inviting to the new comers to the franchise without scaring them off by being brutally uncompromising from the start.

These things should be a sense of self progression: when you get too used to X feature being to easy, host games with X feature lessened or removed.

I used to complain about how EASY it was to heal by just eating butterflies, but then I noticed there is a nifty little toggle that lets me turn them completely off..

my point? Who cares how easy everything is becoming? Klei can just as easily reintroduce some harder mode or entire brand new world later..

Edited by Mike23Ua
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Well-met    5151
7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Woodie chopping all the wood he wants and forcing his own transformations.

Willow having a object that protects her from her biggest weaknesses cold & going insane while cold.

Winona getting hungry when crafting can be countered by taking advantage of bulk crafting things with her speed crafting perk.

Wormwood being able to heal using the various fertilizers RWYS introduced, no Sanity penalties from wetness and forced self bloom for move speed buff without the bees attacking him like they used to.

Wigfrids inability to eat anything other than Meat reduced by various new meat sources, Wigfrid getting more uses out of her weapons & Armor by using Weaponized Warble scroll.

Woodie's downside is tanking hunger like wolfgang.

Willow's downside is mobs using freeze attack and winter as a whole. Holding bernie takes up your walking cane slot aswell as other items.

Winona is a special case because her rework is rather lacking compared to the rest. The moon portal basically ruins her in her current state.

Wormwood's healing debuff is one of the harshest downside in the game.

so is Wigfrid's diet.

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

my point? Who cares how easy everything is becoming?

probably anyone that plays on public servers.

and those who feel forced to pick the obviously better characters at the expense of the ones they actually prefer.

Edited by Well-met
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Cheggf    2588
24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

My best argument is that other characters outside of Wendy’s downsides have become almost completely nullified.

Some characters other than Wendy have downsides that have been mitigated while Wendy does not have one at all. Her sole downside literally does not exist any more except against Shadow Creatures because Abigail completely removes it.

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Woodie chopping all the wood he wants and forcing his own transformations.

If Abigail cost a few resources to craft, set your hunger to 0 upon summoning, had a sanity drain while she was out, went away automatically after a short period of time, and periodically auto-summoned herself setting your hunger to 0 that would be comparable.

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Willow having a object that protects her from her biggest weaknesses cold & going insane while cold.

If Willow passively had that at all times without needing to repair it or hold it in her hand and it was so strong that she's a lot better against the cold & insanity than the rest of the cast that would be comparable.

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Winona getting hungry when crafting can be countered by taking advantage of bulk crafting things with her speed crafting perk.

If Winona restored hunger every time she crafted something that would be comparable.

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wormwood being able to heal using the various fertilizers RWYS introduced

If rot and manure healed 60hp instead of 2hp that would be comparable.

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wigfrids inability to eat anything other than Meat reduced by various new meat sources

If the petal debuff didn't exist that would be comparable, since then Wendy's damage penalty would be mitigated by the new ectoherbology potions. But then we'd go back to Wendy at least being able to pretend she has a downside...

Edited by Cheggf
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viberr    1211

ey yo @Mike23Ua you really need to stop calling people biased man 

it makes you look like a hypocrite

because you're definitely biased towards wendy 

 

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
26 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

My best argument is that other characters outside of Wendy’s downsides have become almost completely nullified.

explain me walter pls, im stil waiting

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Frashaw27    1318
9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Okay so how exactly having Wendy’s downside “almost” entirely nullified (and I say almost because Abigail won’t help her fight TerrorClaw, Crawling Horror, TerrorBeak + Whatever other inevitable new shadow monsters Klei decides to add later.)

How is that ANY Different from Woodies Downside of chopping too much Wood with Lucy Axe triggering his Werecurse now being completely removed from the game and INSTEAD he can now craft totems to trigger those transformations at his own will?

Because one was a mechanic which actively went against the core of their design and the other didn't. While the were beaver from chopping idea was interesting, it also actively went against the idea of the idea of this lumberjack who wanted to chop down as many trees as you wanted, which is why the majority of people would have picked him when looking through the characters. The mechanic itself just made it so that it limited your potential unless you were dedicated to spending the next ever so minutes being unable to interact with the world except for destroying it. This also compound by the fact that he needed to eat the produce he was producing, a design flaw that makes him extremely counterintuitive to actually use. Now, Klei has decided to just steer into making the forums accessible, unique, and beneficial instead of this weird hybrid of desirable and undesirable qualities. It's a design choice that was bad from the off set, even if some people want it back.

Wendy's damage reduction, on the other hand, was not a bad design choice to begin with. While I most certainly agree with you that the petal boost does just make the damage reduction disappear like work ethic on a Saturday,  it is also belligerent to say that it is also to ignore it isn't significantly easier to deal with. The problem is that with the improved survivability of Abigail, it just is significantly easier to maintain this buff, and thus the disadvantage is entirely negated without another mechanic to counterbalance it. While I personally don't have a problem with it, I also wouldn't be apposed for the buff to just normalize her modifier to the damage of a normal character to curb her power. The problem with this comparison is that you were comparing a broken bowl to a completely fine one, and asked why one is not so actively defended/argued aginst compared to the other.

33 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You guys are just being incredibly biased towards Wendy.

It could also be that everybody else is right and your wrong. While it could be true that you may be some all knowing god, when everyone is literally arguing the exact same point with almost no one contributing to your point, and your bias is blinding you to seriously considering your debaters points. It's fine to have misconception or opinions, but the amount of stubbornness and bias you exude makes your points weaker. Their is a difference between having a steadfast resolve in front of insurgency, and being pigheaded when challenged on your opinions.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Meanwhile Woodie who was already super good at chopping Wood at game breaking paces can now do so with the only thing getting in his way being a few easily out walkable tree guardians.. and in ADDITION To his tree chopping powers he gained TWO additional forms for faster movement speed (which can also travel over water) and a hulking Moose form that can be used in combat for pretty decent but Not OP effect.

The character who was all about Chop, Chop, Chop now has an all around good kit: But hilariously you see people COMPLAINING about that Kit rather than praising it for how good it is.

Because it isn't what they wanted. It's like having a BLT, and thinking that it could be better with maybe thinner tomatoes or bacon, and then getting a meatball sub for a permanent change. They liked the classical werewolf design, and thus they see the changes to Woodie to just make him a gigantic gag instead of fixing the problem. While I don't share this opinion, I see where they are coming from. This doesn't add to your point and is actually off topic as it was more of saying a personal gripe instead of actually contributing to your argument. It shows how people don't like change, not how op or not Wendy or Woodie is.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

In the same light: People just can’t leave Wendy well enough alone, if you find her too easy to play as maybe don’t play as her? But it’s not enough to warrant Nerfs to her character.

While saying that you shouldn't play as someone is good if it is strictly personal problem, it isn't the same when multiple people have the same complaint. A personal grudge that stems from this type of behavior is inherently fine as everyone has different tastes and opinions, but there is also the thing to consider that with so many people spouting the same opinion, there should be some investigating to see if the claims are valid or not. To advert your eyes from the truth doesn't meant that it still doesn't exist.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

the characters we SHOULD be discussing are only the ones that Have NOT been reworked yet- because those are the ones that are DEFIANTLY going to be changed.. Meanwhile the ones who have already been reworked likely won’t get a second tune up until Klei is done with the update chains.

Maybe, but we also have solid proof of the trajectory and ideas that Klei has for the reworks, and we should bring up our grievances so that they don't make the same mistake twice. We can discuss potential all we want, but solid proof and remakeable results is much better then pure speculation. Plus, what is wrong with a QoL update that specifically the common issues the people have had with the reworks up til now (like the Fireproof Song, Wurt's unrefined followers, Winona General everything, etc) as that would just lessen any current criticism and brings up the general quality of the game.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Forum members have been wanting Nerfs to Wendy ever since MARCH of last Year and Nerfs haven’t happened yet, at the same time players have been wanting BUFFS to Winona’s kit since before March.. and that hasn’t happened yet either

This is exactly the same result from the idea of "more content" that you propagated in your post. It generates more hype from the entire community as a whole for brand new updates and the like, rather then an update centered around the idea of improving small things. It is also hypocritical for you to say how we should focus on the idea of new content, but also conflate the idea these readjustments of the reworks isn't also in the potential near future.

41 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Woodie chopping all the wood he wants and forcing his own transformations.

That's because his entire character was shifted from a lumberjack specific to a more general character. This also came with new downsides like how you are locked in place while transforming and always exit the form starving. Even if it's negatable by the larger community, it still doesn't mean that any downside was removed from the annals of his character.

43 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Willow having a object that protects her from her biggest weaknesses cold & going insane while cold

An object that has uses that could be better spent in other areas and doesn't last too long without having a sewing kit on hand always. It has also been brought up that in order to have this perk, you need to also forgo any potential tools or weapons in favor of the bear.

45 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Winona getting hungry when crafting can be countered by taking advantage of bulk crafting things with her speed crafting perk

This downside is more focused on the moments in which you need to frantically make something while doing a task, instead of when you are focused of mass crafting something. 

47 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wormwood being able to heal using the various fertilizers RWYS introduced, no Sanity penalties from wetness and forced self bloom for move speed buff without the bees attacking him like they used to.

Wormwood's healing it isn't that useful due to the little amount they heal, and thus the amount they need is also expontially increased compared to actual healing items. The sanity penelty being removed from rain doesn't get rid of the slippery tools, freezing, or potential lightning strikes from storms. Self blooming is just an overall better mechanic due to not being so tied to spring for it's effects. Also the bees thing was also only important if you went near bees during that time, a fairly easy task for any player of the game unless you set the world to be infested with the hives.

 

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W0l0l0    280
1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Woodie chopping all the wood he wants and forcing his own transformations.

Apparently Wendy is more of an issue than Woodie, I guess. I don't know and I don't care, but that appears to be the case. 

With that being said, I play Woodie a lot and I do wish he had a decent interesting downside, (preferably involving Lucy somehow) but I can't think of anything good that wouldn't change him too much.

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