HeilerderWelten

The 4 most overpowered characters and how to balance them?

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Mike23Ua    9707

I don’t think they “NEED” Balancing- Don’t Starve isn’t a game about Balance: even the PVP game SMITE where you have 100+ characters to choose from, some will always be “Better” or “Worse” than others.

You wanna know what happens when you listen to complaints for Balance? look to Apex Legends and how literally every patch update they’ve Nerfed what used to be my favorite character Wraith, My point here for those of you that aren’t understanding:

If it’s not broken.. don’t attempt to fix it. 
Wolfgang is a STRONGMAN and I expect him to remain to be a strongman so I don’t see his damage being nerf’d by much if at all- what I CAN realistically see happening is Puny form disappearing, Normal form becoming “slightly” Weaker to make up for there being no Puny form, and Mighty Form retaining everything it has now: Except maybe requiring him to perform mighty actions, as well as maintain an at least 70% full stomach. I would also like to see his Quote “Myriad of Phobias” play into gameplay some where... perhaps by giving him a few mobs he actually performs worse than other characters against.. other than that- Dont make the Mighty Wolfgang any Less Mighty. Wolfgang needs a Downside (a real one) please Klei give Superman his Kryptonite!

Next up Wickerbottom, Yes Wicker has some insanely good books- but with great power.. comes great respon- You get the idea. If she’s OP let her BE OP but make being OP require work and to feel rewarding: For example making books require some of the newer Return of Them ingredients (perhaps MoleBat noses or Seaweed Barnacle etc..) Shes a Witch/Merlin like character with some funky highly powerful books: Instead of nerfing the high hell out of those books- Make getting the ingredients for them worth venturing to those locations to acquire.

WX78 I don’t really know WHAT to do with but I’d like WX to stop eating all gears to become powerful and to instead gain something that requires a little more “effort” to get upgrades- The Iron Hulk from Hamlet needing to be charged and assembled while charged is a pretty good example of what we should do with a Robot Character ;)

Thats actually my answer to all 3: Dont NERF them into being unrecognizable... simply make their OP’ness require “Effort” to Achieve.

Edit: As for Wortox, I dunno a “Naughtiness” Meter sounds like an interesting concept- I just have Zero suggestions for it.

The End.

Edited by Mike23Ua

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Mysterious box    535
2 hours ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Thats crazy! Very interesting. Now I know why she is on every sever...2-3 times.

And this is all before considering her potions like damage reflect and night time damage during the day and evening. She also has healing potions all of which you can apply directly to her flower.

Edit almost forgot her damage reflect and shield potion also increase the duration of her invincibility shield making multi hits nearly useless against her the easiest example is to use one of them and have her fight a gnome despite all the spores he'll shoot she usually only takes around 2-3 hits per spin her craftable sanity station is pretty nice too.

Edited by Mysterious box

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Shosuko    2616
6 hours ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Fair point. I am curious, is Wendy really that strong? Can Abygail handle a houndwave (day 100+) alone? I am not very familiar with reworked Wendy. What can the girl do?

She can handle a lot of hounds, but probably needs a heal potion or preferably a vengeance potion to do it well.  The weakness of Abigail is that she doesn't deal much damage during the day.  There is a potion to fix that BUT then you can't use a heal / vengeance potion so its still suboptimal.  She mostly excels at killing low damage swarm enemies.  Anything hound or higher and she needs potions or dies.  Against most bosses she really suffers because bosses deal double damage to non-player mobs.  She dies in about 4 hits from Deerclops and 3 from Bearger.  Its not as simple as "aoe bad single target good" though as some bosses that are single target will wiff if you dodge the attack but others you need to actually tank the hit or it will just redirect to her.  I think only dfly will actually miss both of you if you dodge.

Wendy is definitely top tier and with that level of power I don't ask for nerfs directly to Woflgang but just to damage / speed multiplier stacking.  It gives Wolfgang his niche but other people can compensate with other materials.

7 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally i feel like wendy is the unbalanced character. For all the flak Wolfgang gets about his damage modifier you still have to account for player skill in combat he has the strength of 2 players but that means nothing if you aren't good at fighting. On the other end you have Wendy who trivializes most combat in dst as most threats you face come from horde battles and Wolfgang's 2x damage doesn't compare to spread damage that requires little to no management. While her hitting for less can cause a impact it really only applies to solo play as having partners more than covers this. Wolfgang also falls into this the isn't balanced around Wolfgang its balanced around players swarming bosses 2x damage doesn't hold a candle to 5-12x players.

Wendy doesn't really surpass Wolfgang, but I could see them as meeting.  The thing about Woflgang is he deals double damage where it matters - nonstop against bosses.  Abigail is good against some bosses, but only some.  While killing a thousand spiders is great its not the biggest deal.  A bunnyman or rocklobster farm can do just as well.  And that's kinda the bar I think is reasonable to set for dst.  Its okay for strongman to be the strongest, but when the multipliers stack its just ridiculous.  If we stop damage / speed multiplier stacking then we allow the playing field to become more leveled while still allowing some players to excel AND we open up design space for more options for damage and speed multipliers since we don't have to worry about what happens when we use them all at once.

Edited by Shosuko

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Mysterious box    535
25 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

She can handle a lot of hounds, but probably needs a heal potion or preferably a vengeance potion to do it well.  The weakness of Abigail is that she doesn't deal much damage during the day.  There is a potion to fix that BUT then you can't use a heal / vengeance potion so its still suboptimal.  She mostly excels at killing low damage swarm enemies.  Anything hound or higher and she needs potions or dies.  Against most bosses she really suffers because bosses deal double damage to non-player mobs.  She dies in about 4 hits from Deerclops and 3 from Bearger.  Its not as simple as "aoe bad single target good" though as some bosses that are single target will wiff if you dodge the attack but others you need to actually tank the hit or it will just redirect to her.  I think only dfly will actually miss both of you if you dodge.

Wendy is definitely top tier and with that level of power I don't ask for nerfs directly to Woflgang but just to damage / speed multiplier stacking.  It gives Wolfgang his niche but other people can compensate with other materials.

Wendy doesn't really surpass Wolfgang, but I could see them as meeting.  The thing about Woflgang is he deals double damage where it matters - nonstop against bosses.  Abigail is good against some bosses, but only some.  While killing a thousand spiders is great its not the biggest deal.  A bunnyman or rocklobster farm can do just as well.  And that's kinda the bar I think is reasonable to set for dst.  Its okay for strongman to be the strongest, but when the multipliers stack its just ridiculous.  If we stop damage / speed multiplier stacking then we allow the playing field to become more leveled while still allowing some players to excel AND we open up design space for more options for damage and speed multipliers since we don't have to worry about what happens when we use them all at once.

I kind of think this line of thinking is wrong most enemies in the game are non boss monster which wendy excels at not just spiders but all mobs which is a majority of the game's content on the other hand while Wolfgang is strong teamplay can easily replace his strength in boss fights and if not there's plenty of cheese methods available.

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Shosuko    2616
48 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I kind of think this line of thinking is wrong most enemies in the game are non boss monster which wendy excels at not just spiders but all mobs which is a majority of the game's content on the other hand while Wolfgang is strong teamplay can easily replace his strength in boss fights and if not there's plenty of cheese methods available.

Yeah but most of the game isn't racing to farm 1000 spiders, just killing a few dozen is enough and Wolfgang does that too.  He can 1 shot spiders and frogs, 2 shot hounds, werepigs and bunnymen are also very easy.  Its not like he ONLY does double damage to bosses lol  While Abi can AOE in order to do real work she needs potions which requires Wendy to go on a side quest meanwhile Wolfgang only needs food, which the game practically shoves down your throat after first winter lol.

As I said you can definitely say Wendy / Abi is OP just as you can say Wolfgang is OP.  Wendy doesn't change the problems Wolfgang poses to the game, but she also doesn't monopolize the top end, honestly there isn't must "need" for the things Abi does, but there is a need for what Wolfgang does.  Before Wendy's rework I would have said Wolfgang needed a nerf but at this point with other damage buff I think just cutting the stacking effect for damage / speed would be enough.

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CremeLover    396
13 hours ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Fair point. I am curious, is Wendy really that strong? Can Abygail handle a houndwave (day 100+) alone? I am not very familiar with reworked Wendy. What can the girl do?

Wendy is really powerful. Abigail alone can handle a hound wave of 2 people as long as it is not daytime and you can get most the hounds to aggro onto her at the same time (to get her shield to block the hound bites).

2 potions of healing are enough for her to handle an entire frog rain by herself (provided you get some dusk/night damage and not just day), which is pretty broken considering it takes 1 telltale heart and 3 morning glory per potion, and you get back 4 stacks of frog legs per rain. Only time she has died during frog rain was when I was busy cooking the legs and forgot to reapply the elixir before she got licked to dead.

And for bosses, as long as you can manage to get the boss to hit you instead of Abigail she can aid you through the whole fight, and not only does she do nice damage, but she increases your damage as well. She really can't take much punishment from bosses if she gets hit a bunch, unless you pack more unholy juice to douse her flower with.

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Cheggf    2588
14 hours ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Fair point. I am curious, is Wendy really that strong? Can Abygail handle a houndwave (day 100+) alone? I am not very familiar with reworked Wendy. What can the girl do?

She can do everything. If you're using a relatively fresh ham bat she has about 1.5x damage once you account for Abigail, so in practice that's more than half the damage bonus of Wolfgang since that 2.00x is probably more like 1.90x or 1.95x in reality. She has infinite free light. She's basically immune to hound waves and frog rain. She trivializes Bee Queen by simply existing, while people hate that Wickerbottom can trivialize Bee Queen by gathering a ton of walls and papyrus and tentacle spots. She's by far the best farmer of anything dropped by common enemies like monster meat, silk, glands, morsels, nmf, beard hair, honey, stingers, teeth, frog legs, etc. Abigail can fight most things on her own with no items or Wendy intervention needed.

All of that and more for practically no downside. People like to say Wolfgang's 300% hunger drain isn't a downside because food is easy to get, but they're just completely fine with Wendy getting all of that for the downside of taking slightly longer to fight shadow creatures while being way better at fighting everything else. Wendy is the only character in the game that I think actually needs to be nerfed, but I'm not exactly sure how to nerf her without making her really stupid. I have some ideas on possible nerfs but I'm not feeling too strongly on any of them

Edited by Cheggf
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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
12 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Wendy is the only character in the game that I think actually needs to be nerfed, but I'm not exactly sure how to nerf her without making her really stupid.

Just nerf abi damage so wendy will need to help her (what was suppose to be the core gameplay of the re-rework)

No sense of having 40 damage and also a damage buff for players

She really trivialize the game

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Mike23Ua    9707
6 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

She can do everything. If you're using a relatively fresh ham bat she effectively has about 1.5x damage once you account for Abigail, so in practice that's more than half the damage bonus of Wolfgang since that 2.00x is probably more like 1.90x or 1.95x in reality. She has infinite free light. She's basically immune to hound waves. She's by far the best farmer of anything dropped by common enemies like monster meat, silk, glands, morsels, nmf, beard hair, honey, stingers, etc. Abigail can fight most things on her own with no items or Wendy intervention needed.

All of that and more for practically no downside. People like to say Wolfgang's 300% hunger drain isn't a downside because food is easy to get, but they're just completely fine with Wendy getting all of that for the downside of taking slightly longer to fight shadow creatures while being way better at fighting everything else. Wendy is the only character in the game that I think actually needs to be nerfed, but I'm not exactly sure how to nerf her without making her really stupid. I have some ideas on possible nerfs but I'm not feeling too strongly on any of them.

The downsides are pretty apparent: she has to go to a very specific location and engage in very specific activities to get the ingredients she needs for making her sisters ghost more useful.

Wolfgang simply just needs to eat whatever he can find... 

WENDY on the other hand has to gather materials to build a Sisturn, fuel said Sisturn with flower petals, monitor the spoil rate of the flowers in Sisturn (replacing when Needed) Wait 3 game days for Abigail to reach Maximum power- Quest to Graveyards, Help Pipspook find lost things- Create potions:Apply Potions to Abigail to increase her power.

Basically... Wendy’s largest downside is NOT caring for and protecting Abigail, when Abby dies all applied potion buffs die with her, she Respawn at 150 Hp (and maxes out at 600hp) Case in point: Abigails so called “Free Infinite Light” won’t even glow unless she’s at Max power.

For YOU it might not be hard to keep Abigail alive and protect her: but there are still plenty of newer players to the franchise who struggle with that- AND Klei made it so keeping Abigail alive & increasing her power in turn rewards Wendy.

You can’t compare a character that only needs to eat a few meatballs to a character that needs to go to a specific location on the game map and engage in their very own gameplay mechanics to make them more OP.

It isn’t fair- and it’s being highly biased.

YES Wendy is OP now, but it’s a Rewarding type of OP you have to freaking WORK FOR to achieve- and that is a heck of a lot more than I can say for Wolfgang currently.

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

The downsides are pretty apparent: she has to go to a very specific location and engage in very specific activities to get the ingredients she needs for making her sisters ghost more useful.

Wolfgang simply just needs to eat whatever he can find... 

WENDY on the other hand has to gather materials to build a Sisturn, fuel said Sisturn with flower petals, monitor the spoil rate of the flowers in Sisturn (replacing when Needed) Wait 3 game days for Abigail to reach Maximum power- Quest to Graveyards, Help Pipspook find lost things- Create potions:Apply Potions to Abigail to increase her power

These arent downsides 

Is easier to gather mourning glory ,and more if you take in count that there is always a cementery in one of the safest place of the game,than killing stuff to eat as wolfg (not as wendy since abi does the job) and for each ghost you get enough to craft ~2 elixirs. Wolfgang needs to go to specific locations and does specific things to eat, wendy just do the same but with the little ghost without any danger. And as you said, this is only to make abi even more op and the elixirs arent needed outside of frog rains (you can make her back to the flower if she is wounded and run like every other character if you dont use elixirs) and boss fights

The sistrum isnt a downside, its a perk. Useful for new player to totally prevent insanity

her UNIQUE downside is her 0.75 damage agaisnt shadows that with 200 sanity, less sanity drain and the sistrum gets removed most of the time. Nothing else

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Cheggf    2588
10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The downsides are pretty apparent: she has to go to a very specific location and engage in very specific activities to get the ingredients she needs for making her sisters ghost more useful.

Wolfgang simply just needs to eat whatever he can find... 

That's not a downside, Abigail is still rather strong without any buffs. Imagine if Wolfgang had 2x base damage and 1.25x speed for no hunger penalty just baseline, but if he played tic tac toe with a snurtle he got an item that increased his damage to 5x and speed to 1.5x for 8 minutes (also still with no hunger penalty). Would you say that's a downside?

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

WENDY on the other hand has to gather materials to build a Sisturn, fuel said Sisturn with flower petals, monitor the spoil rate of the flowers in Sisturn (replacing when Needed)

Nope. She doesn't need to do any of that at all. If you don't mass suicide Abby into stuff every day for no reason you don't need a sisturn, but even if you do you're super exaggerating what you need for a sisturn.

In actuality it's more like she needs to put a structure down then if Abigail dies she plucks 4 flowers and puts them in it and doesn't have to do that again. Idk why you think sisturn needs to be up 24/7?

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Quest to Graveyards, Help Pipspook find lost things

That's all she needs to do and it's about as hard as picking a few extra carrots to account for Wolf's hunger downside.

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

For YOU it might not be hard to keep Abigail alive and protect her: but there are still plenty of newer players to the franchise who struggle with that

You say this immediately after saying Wolfgang's hunger downside isn't a downside. She can, with no potion buffs, kill every single hound wave a person who's at the experience level you're saying would encounter. She can, with no potion buffs, kill entire killer bee biomes at the same time. She can do basically everything with no potion buffs except for boss fights which a really bad Wendy might struggle with, but no moreso than a really bad Wolfgang.

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You can’t compare a character that only needs to eat a few meatballs to a character that needs to go to a specific location on the game map and engage in their very own gameplay mechanics to make them more OP.

And you immediately go back to this again lol

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

It isn’t fair- and it’s being highly biased.

A very accurate assessment of your own comment.

Edited by Cheggf
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Mike23Ua    9707

You can only return Abigail to her flower if you are within spear slapping distance of her on Xbox/Playstation.

They probably should just Nerf the PC version so you all have to actually get CLOSE to the Danger to Despawn Abigail.

Because I can tell you for a fact I’ve still managed to kill Abigail/be killed because I let Abigail get killed while trying to fight mobs.

In fact I think a lot of the things people deem as OP on PC probably need nerfing: I have no idea how y’all got on the subject of Wendy when she isn’t even in the list the op posted but WORTOX is

And y’all claim Wortox is OP: (and he probably is because you can teleport in any direction you want) Use an Xbox controller however... and you can only teleport to a predetermined always on screen indicator circle and ONLY in the direction your facing in.

I have no idea why Klei designs this game differently between Keyboard & Mouse & using a Console Controller: But If Cross play were to ever become a thing: These are serious differences that would have to be addressed.

Either put us ALL on the same playing field: Or don’t do Crossplay between hardware with clear control advantages.

Wortox being able to have a stack of 20 souls on Xbox isn’t even THAT OP.. the teleportation is limited like I said and I have not ever found it viable for heated combat situations at all- (I’ve tried and it usually just leads to accidentally soul hopping right back into the enemy) the only OP thing about Wortox may be how easy it is to heal his hunger and his health with a Massive Stack of 20 souls, but other than that: I don’t see him as some Holy Trinity god tier character.. his Teleports are only useful for crossing streams or over cave gaps. 
 

Difference between Wolfgang & Wendy: Wendy has to go to Specific locations (& make frequent returning trips to gather more ingredients for that power) to engage in her gameplay content: Wolfgang however only needs to build a village of Pigmen to kill for meaty stews

Basically: He can build the items to gain his power ANYWHERE... Where as Wendy has to go to specific locations.

The same can actually be said about Wigfrid now too- she has to go out and get Spittlefish for her stagecraft song.. and regardless of how useful/useless the scroll is is irrelevant the fact is she still has to make RETURN TRIPS to X Location to craft her items.

Wolfgang- not so much, build you a Boat with some Pigmen on them and you can carry your meaty stew source with you.

I can’t craft my own Pipspook tombstone Spawn anywhere I want them as Wendy or Spittle Fish ponds for Stagecraft as Wigfrid.

THAT is the difference.

 

 

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
15 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

I will not say anything about the difference of controlls between pc and consoles because i still not understand why klei relase on consoles content with that awful controls

 

About pipspook vs food is easy, you dont need elixirs as wendy but wolfgang needs food. Even when you need elixirs you only need at most 3 (only for boss fights, a little portion of the gameplay and 3 only if you dont know well how to defeat such boss as wendy) which can be obtain by helping a neutral mob in a safe place meanwhile wolfgang needs to do more work more time and even in more dangerous situations (if fighting with that stupid stats could be dangerous)

So no, having access to a unique material that can be obtained with no dangers and isnt even needed isnt a downside

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CremeLover    396
25 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Just nerf abi damage so wendy will need to help her (what was suppose to be the core gameplay of the re-rework)

No sense of having 40 damage and also a damage buff for players

She really trivialize the game

I'd rather go with the approach that the Uncompromising Mode did, just remove the extra buff Wendy has from Abigail's de buff just for being Wendy, and keep her regular de buff.

Wendy was supposed to have lower damage while compensating by having good AoE damage. Reducing her AoE damage while keeping single target damage high is the wrong approach.

47 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

She can do everything. If you're using a relatively fresh ham bat she has about 1.5x damage once you account for Abigail, so in practice that's more than half the damage bonus of Wolfgang since that 2.00x is probably more like 1.90x or 1.95x in reality. She has infinite free light. She's basically immune to hound waves and frog rain. She trivializes Bee Queen by simply existing, while people hate that Wickerbottom can trivialize Bee Queen by gathering a ton of walls and papyrus and tentacle spots. She's by far the best farmer of anything dropped by common enemies like monster meat, silk, glands, morsels, nmf, beard hair, honey, stingers, teeth, frog legs, etc. Abigail can fight most things on her own with no items or Wendy intervention needed.

I don't have the numbers on the damage, her final dmg multiplier is x1.15 after Abigail's de buff, and Abigail attacks slower than the player, so that's at best an extra 20 dps from night damage. With fresh hambat dmg= 59.5*1.15=68.42+20(Abigail)= 88.42. Divided by the hambat dmg is a x1.48 dmg multiplier with the extra Abigail damage. This is not a constant since Abigail has flat damage. Is x1.44 with a dark sword.

She's not immune to frog rain or dog waves. Dog waves come at random time, and if they come at a bad time, like after a boss fight or any other thing that damages Abigail, she's not going to be able to kill the entire hound wave by herself. She does require less preparation, but not being prepared kills her just as it kills any other character. And frog rain requires a bunch of elixirs prepared.

Her max damage didn't really change with the rework. The rework added a shield, a de buff and a way to call her back and stop her from dying, and elixirs. Most of the things you mention she could do before

 

In regards to bosses, I find myself using Abigail for the first section of the fight, then de spawning her when she's about to die rather than using potion and finishing the fight on my own unless is a fight that is really worth to keep Abigail alive, such as fuel weaver to kill shadows, or bee queen. No other elixir matters other than the health one, and I reserve those for frog rain. Is easier to get healing and armor than to make a trip to the cementery and hope a pipspook is actually there and do its side quest a bunch of times to get elixirs

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

They probably should just Nerf the PC version

NO

 

 

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
Just now, CremeLover said:

I'd rather go with the approach that the Uncompromising Mode did, just remove the extra buff Wendy has from Abigail's de buff just for being Wendy, and keep her regular de buff.

Wendy was supposed to have lower damage while compensating by having good AoE damage. Reducing her AoE damage while keeping single target damage high is the wrong approach.

she will still being an automatic source of damage that never dies. Having the buff atleast makes her more versatil and less grindy and tedious and will still being good fighting group of enemies

doesnt matter if wendy does .75, .5 or 0 damage if abi can completly counter group of foes for free.

3 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

She's not immune to frog rain or dog waves. Dog waves come at random time, and if they come at a bad time, like after a boss fight or any other thing that damages Abigail, she's not going to be able to kill the entire hound wave by herself. She does require less preparation, but not being prepared kills her just as it kills any other character. And frog rain requires a bunch of elixirs prepared.

even at low hp she will really help wendy. The problem is exactly that abi does everything by his own so i dont see the problem of having a little trouble with hounds few times like every other character.

frog rains doesnt need that much elixirs

6 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Her max damage didn't really change with the rework. The rework added a shield, a de buff and a way to call her back and stop her from dying, and elixirs. Most of the things you mention she could do before

the problem is that she has the old damage (that was high because she died easy) and a lot of ways to survive and less time to recall her

 

7 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

No other elixir matters other than the health one

the shield one is useful, the elixir that adds night damage at day too and the speed one is wonderful for toad

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CremeLover    396
3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

she will still being an automatic source of damage that never dies. Having the buff atleast makes her more versatil and less grindy and tedious and will still being good fighting group of enemies

doesnt matter if wendy does .75, .5 or 0 damage if abi can completly counter group of foes for free.

But again, she could always do that. There was a punishment if she died where you couldn't summon her again for a few days. Her kit could be defined as "good at killing large groups of foes, bad at killing strong foes". Her shield and the ability to summon/de-summon her at will after she died only made her more broken in this regard, but she was always able to handle a hound wave of day +100 by herself as long as it was not daytime, and you helped her a bit at dusk.

Diminishing her potential for AoE damage and making her more single target oriented, would make her more akin to other boss fighters such as Wolfgang and Wigfrid. Being grindy and tedious WAS her downside in exchange for having an easy time killing large mobs.

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
2 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

But again, she could always do that. There was a punishment if she died where you couldn't summon her again for a few days. Her kit could be defined as "good at killing large groups of foes, bad at killing strong foes". Her shield and the ability to summon/de-summon her at will after she died only made her more broken in this regard, but she was always able to handle a hound wave of day +100 by herself as long as it was not daytime, and you helped her a bit at dusk.

Diminishing her potential for AoE damage and making her more single target oriented, would make her more akin to other boss fighters such as Wolfgang and Wigfrid. Being grindy and tedious WAS her downside in exchange for having an easy time killing large mobs.

 

1 minute ago, Well-met said:

get rid of the petal debuff and we're all good

okey but her real problem, and what makes her boring, of being faceroll character that doesnt need the interaction of the player will remaing

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Mysterious box    535
7 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Yeah but most of the game isn't racing to farm 1000 spiders, just killing a few dozen is enough and Wolfgang does that too.  He can 1 shot spiders and frogs, 2 shot hounds, werepigs and bunnymen are also very easy.  Its not like he ONLY does double damage to bosses lol  While Abi can AOE in order to do real work she needs potions which requires Wendy to go on a side quest meanwhile Wolfgang only needs food, which the game practically shoves down your throat after first winter lol.

As I said you can definitely say Wendy / Abi is OP just as you can say Wolfgang is OP.  Wendy doesn't change the problems Wolfgang poses to the game, but she also doesn't monopolize the top end, honestly there isn't must "need" for the things Abi does, but there is a need for what Wolfgang does.  Before Wendy's rework I would have said Wolfgang needed a nerf but at this point with other damage buff I think just cutting the stacking effect for damage / speed would be enough.

Feels like your ignoring the point normal mobs make up the majority of the game's world which means wendy can and will be ending most fights faster than Wolfgang she also doesn't need potions for non boss content they're just for pushing Abigail over the edge but even then her side quest doesn't take more than 2 mins if you know what your doing the ingredients as super common too but for the example give both Wolfgang and wendy a hambat against horde and no I don't just mean spiders wendy will demolish wolfgang's clear speed due to not needing to dodge and being able to attack everything at once.

And as far as the argument of gathering materials goes that's like saying Wolfgang is better than something like Winona's catapults they take time to setup but I'm sure if people asked what did more damage those catapults would always win having to take a min or two is hardly comparable to having a mobile aoe spear for days on end.

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CremeLover    396

 

13 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

frog rains doesnt need that much elixirs

the problem is that she has the old damage (that was high because she died easy) and a lot of ways to survive and less time to recall her

 

the shield one is useful, the elixir that adds night damage at day too and the speed one is wonderful for toad

Frog rain needs 2 healing elixirs from my testing, might change depending on random factors.

13 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the shield one is useful, the elixir that adds night damage at day too and the speed one is wonderful for toad

From my experience, any damage that is blocked by the shield you can just outheal with the healing one, and by the end of the fight you will have more health than using the shield. And I tested on frog rain with the revenge one.

Haven't tried the speed one for toad, will give it a shot.

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

okey but her real problem, and what makes her boring, of being faceroll character that doesnt need the interaction of the player will remaing

What I liked about Wendy, and this was before her rework, was the ability to just go about my business and not having to carry a weapon or armor if I was just heading out, and it allowed me to focus on other things. If Abigail got stuck on something she couldn't kill, I'd just walk away and she'll teleport to me while keeping the aggro so I didn't need to get into combat.

Her rework did over buff her a bit too much, being made easier to keep alive and reducing the consequences if she were to die. Situations like running away from a horde of shadow monkeys with an Abigail flower wondering if you could kill a monkey to summon her before the monkeys could chew and skin you alive are situations I don't find myself in anymore.

She was always convenient, but I do agree she has now been made too convenient with all the extra stuff added. I still do not agree nerfing what has always been her signature is the way to go.

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Cheggf    2588

While my internet was down I thought of a way that Wendy might be able to get nerfed while keeping her ability to deal with groups of enemies: swapping the petal buff around. Instead of Wendy dealing 0.75x damage boosted to 1.155x practically always because Abigail applies it and Abigail has 40 AoE DPS, Abigail's damage was severely cut to like a third of what it is right now, but every time Wendy attacked something it would apply the petal debuff to them and all nearby enemies for a short period of time (2 seconds?), and those petals would grant Abigail an enormous damage boost which returns her damage to what it is currently. Then she would have about the same single target damage as an average character but stay extremely good at dispatching crowds, but she has to put in a little effort to kill the crowds instead of just spectating. It'd force her to actually work with her sister instead of just watching her sister do everything, and have her no longer outshine the other combat characters so much.

2 hours ago, CremeLover said:

I don't have the numbers on the damage, her final dmg multiplier is x1.15 after Abigail's de buff, and Abigail attacks slower than the player, so that's at best an extra 20 dps from night damage. With fresh hambat dmg= 59.5*1.15=68.42+20(Abigail)= 88.42. Divided by the hambat dmg is a x1.48 dmg multiplier with the extra Abigail damage. This is not a constant since Abigail has flat damage. Is x1.44 with a dark sword.

What is that math? Abigail attacks once a second, and players attack either 2 or 2.5 times a second (I forget which). That puts a perfectly fresh ham bat at 119 or 148.7 DPS and a perfectly fresh Wendybat at either 137.4 or 171.8 DPS. Adding Abigail's 40 DPS onto that brings the damage multiplier to either 1.49x or 1.42x, but if the bat isn't perfectly fresh either of those could reach 1.5x. 1.5x just looks nicer than 1.49x, although if the players attack 2.5 times a second it would be closer to 1.4x which is still like half of Wolfgang's buff and more than Wigfrid's buff despite being obtained for nothing in addition to a lot of other things on a character with no downsides.

2 hours ago, CremeLover said:

She's not immune to frog rain or dog waves. Dog waves come at random time, and if they come at a bad time, like after a boss fight or any other thing that damages Abigail, she's not going to be able to kill the entire hound wave by herself.

I said she's basically immune. You saying that she's immune unless they coincidentally come immediately after a boss fight where you let Abigail get injured a lot and you have no elixirs to help her proves my point that she's basically immune.

Edited by Cheggf

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Mike23Ua    9707

Has anyone stopped to think that the extra damage and other perks/quirks they have been giving these characters in DST maybe was done to make what was originally created as a Multiplayer only game- more friendly and accessible to players who might not even play with “Multiple players?”

What I mean by that- is Maybe they buffed Wendy, BECAUSE Enemies in DST have like 5x the Health points they had in DS solo.

But to complain about Abigail being good at attacking groups of enemies is just plain dumb- that’s what Abigail is DESIGNED to do best.. 
 

Just like Woodie is DESIGNED to chop down an entire forest in relatively quick fashion without losing Axe durability & Now also without triggering his Werewolf curse.

Just like How BERNIE is DESIGNED to be the single best object in the game to absolutely wreck all Shadow monsters.

My point? They each have a specific thing they’re meant to excel best at.. and it’s funny to hear people complain that Abigail is good against mobs of enemies, when no one says a single word about how Woodie can simulate Bearger+Deerclops levels of wood chopping in a matter of seconds.

Wendy’s downside has ALWAYS even in Single-Player Dont Starve been Shadow Monsters: A downside that admit-ably you hardly ever noticed because Shadow monsters could just be De-Spawned by running away till they leave render.

NOW though- they’ve patched those shadows so you actually have to deal with them instead of running away till they go away, And that’s not even mentioning they’ve added TerrorClaw & that the last large content update had us literally trigger an event that spawns even more Shadow creatures.

Abigail was ALREADY good at destroying a entire hound wave by herself even in SOLO DS.. the difference is you (as Wendy) had to run these enemies Into Abigail.. now you can just command Abigail to attack them Herself.

The only thing she got that is incredibly OP is the ability to single handedly wreck an entire seasons worth of Frog Rain- Pre-Rework frog rain would've ALWAYS been the Death of Abigail.

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ArubaroBeefalo    8092
12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

What I mean by that- is Maybe they buffed Wendy, BECAUSE Enemies in DST have like 5x the Health points they had in DS solo.

What. Just few enemies have x2 health and shadows, her downside, have the same hp

If you are taking in count raid bosses, they have the hp that they need for the loot they have and for the amount of methods to kill them. So pls, stop writing fake facts

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Just like Woodie is DESIGNED to chop down an entire forest in relatively quick fashion without losing Axe durability & Now also without triggering his Werewolf curse.

Just like How BERNIE is DESIGNED to be the single best object in the game to absolutely wreck all Shadow monsters

Both can be stopped by treeguards and bernie being defeated respectfuly. Meanwhile, as said for many hundred of times, wendy doesnt need to do ANYTHING to survive hound waves, one of most the dangerous thing in the entire game that make some players stay near a hound trap 24/7, and gather food from spiders, pigs, bunnymens, monkeys, bees, etc. Is FREE damage and protection not like bernie. And this isnt healthy a game because new players that get stuck playing her doesnt learn anything and how bad, in comparation, becomes other characters 

Before abigail cant be controlled so his damage was correct. Now is so difficult to lose her and, if it happend, you can summon her again (full strong after only 3 days) but she keep her damage+all the new tools and perks so it has no sense

 

Wendy is op, stop saying the opposite with no real facts and bad comparations

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But to complain about Abigail being good at attacking groups of enemies is just plain dumb- that’s what Abigail is DESIGNED to do best.. 

And less if you will call people dumb for arguing the opposite with facts and experience

Edited by ArubaroBeefalo

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CremeLover    396
1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

While my internet was down I thought of a way that Wendy might be able to get nerfed while keeping her ability to deal with groups of enemies: swapping the petal buff around. Instead of Wendy dealing 0.75x damage boosted to 1.155x practically always because Abigail applies it and Abigail has 40 AoE DPS, Abigail's damage was severely cut to like a third of what it is right now, but every time Wendy attacked something it would apply the petal debuff to them and all nearby enemies for a short period of time (2 seconds?), and those petals would grant Abigail an enormous damage boost which returns her damage to what it is currently. Then she would have about the same single target damage as an average character but stay extremely good at dispatching crowds, but she has to put in a little effort to kill the crowds instead of just spectating. It'd force her to actually work with her sister instead of just watching her sister do everything, and have her no longer outshine the other combat characters so much.

I was advocating for removing the extra x1.4 dmg multiplier Wendy gets, and just give her the same x1.1 as other survivors, and this way Wendy can still contribute to the team and saving everyone resources just by being part of the team during a fight, while nerfing her single target damage to be in line with the "good with crowds, bad with big guys" philosophy.

I'm not convinced by your approach, mostly because Abigail just gives a buff to every entity she attacks, and your "spread the buff around the target hit" could get messy codewise.

Thing is, the current petal de buff exists because Klei wanted Abigail and Wendy to fight together, and that's why Wendy gets such a strong damage multiplier from the debuff (x1.4). They just overturned Abigail a little too much to the point the buff is not even needed most of the time. And in her defense, survivability and consequences in case of death, because her attack damage hasn't changed that much.

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

What is that math? Abigail attacks once a second, and players attack either 2 or 2.5 times a second (I forget which). That puts a perfectly fresh ham bat at 119 or 148.7 DPS and a perfectly fresh Wendybat at either 137.4 or 171.8 DPS. Adding Abigail's 40 DPS onto that brings the damage multiplier to either 1.49x or 1.42x, but if the bat isn't perfectly fresh either of those could reach 1.5x. 1.5x just looks nicer than 1.49x, although if the players attack 2.5 times a second it would be closer to 1.4x which is still like half of Wolfgang's buff and more than Wigfrid's buff despite being obtained for nothing in addition to a lot of other things on a character with no downsides.

That math I assume each character attacks 2 times per second, and consider how much damage it does a Wendy+Abigail with night damage in each hit, dividing Abigail dmg by 2. You even reached a similar number, not sure what the problem is.

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

I said she's basically immune. You saying that she's immune unless they coincidentally come immediately after a boss fight where you let Abigail get injured a lot and you have no elixirs to help her proves my point that she's basically immune.

She requires less preparation, but as with everything else, if you're not prepared.

Before the rework, you could just kept a bunch of backup flowers in chests, and I just kept on summoning her during frog rain (they're very quick to kill) until your base is clear. You did took a sanity hit (as I said, most of the consequences from Abi dying are gone) but the frog rain got solo cleared by Abigail nonetheless.

And she could clear hound waves as long as you helped her. She does not need help anymore

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Cheggf    2588
9 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

I was advocating for removing the extra x1.4 dmg multiplier Wendy gets, and just give her the same x1.1 as other survivors, and this way Wendy can still contribute to the team and saving everyone resources just by being part of the team during a fight, while nerfing her single target damage to be in line with the "good with crowds, bad with big guys" philosophy.

That's not bad with big guys at all. When combined with Abigail that still puts her above every single character except for Wigfrid (who she's only slightly behind) and Wolfgang.

9 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

I'm not convinced by your approach, mostly because Abigail just gives a buff to every entity she attacks, and your "spread the buff around the target hit" could get messy codewise.

What?

9 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Thing is, the current petal de buff exists because Klei wanted Abigail and Wendy to fight together

And it does not encourage them to fight together because Abigail is so strong on her own. If she were weak without Wendy it would encourage them to fight together.

9 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

She requires less preparation, but as with everything else, if you're not prepared.

You can literally be afk in the middle of nowhere and come back to your computer to see a bunch of monster meat and teeth on the floor if you had her on aggressive mode.

Edited by Cheggf
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