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HowlVoid

Abigail's petal debuff should be removed and given to Wigfrid

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HowlVoid    1107

Wendy doesn't really need this buff and I feel she was given far too many buffs and utility. Abigail could still buff Wendy but buffing other mobs and players feels a little out of place. Above all else abigail wants protect Wendy. Gameplay wise abigail can already deal with groups and Wendy does not require outside help. I'm taking the perk from another character as to not have too many damage multipliers *cough* Wolgang *cough*. 

So how would it work as a song? It shouldn't be a multiplier without restrictions as even abigail cant upkeep the debuff 100% of the time (Abigail dies, Wendy kites, etc.). The song would replace the useless fire resistance buff (maybe require a dragonfly scale) and possibly do the following:

1. The damage would be a flat increase and would diminish with an increasing number of players/mobs. Possibly 20+ damage for wigfrid alone and 1+ damage at 19 bunnymen (number are hypothetical as they may be too low or too high).

2. Only affects players and scales better on weaker weapons and worse on stronger ones. A spear gets a 15~ damage increase, a hambat is 10~ and a darksword is 5~. A hambats damage boost increases as the weapon deteriorates. Its such a shame that weapon warble dosent work on her (IMO) best weapon and this could be an alternative.

3. Damage is based on a monsters health. Call it Song of the Giant Killer lol. Gives a solo wigfried a 10% (or so) damage increase based on the health of the nearest monster with the highest health. Decreasing values based on number of players (maybe only affects wigfrid?) and possibly capping at 20-40 damage. 

3a. Based on a monsters health, a higher cap but only works if the player is equipping the battle spear. Possibly my favorite of the 3 as we hardly see the weapon in use compared to the hambat.

Thoughts?

Edit: Really? No one thinks its weird that Wigfrid cant rally her friends into battle? Is it so weird for wigfrid the BARD to have a damage song? No one finds it strange that gothic girl can almost deal twice the damage of a Valkarie ( I know shes acting but still).

Edit 2: Not only does she deal almost 120 damage with a dark sword but every other mob gets a damage boost ON TOP OF THAT. Its so broken its not even funny. 

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VouMorrer    327

i will talk about wendy becouse i dont play much wigfrid.

yes, wendy do need this buff becouse it incentivates players to work with abigail as a team, not just stay away from fight and release your sister over your foes.

but i agree with you about the total dps. it is too high.

reducing a bit abigail base damage but keeping the petals buff would be better than removing the buff.

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HowlVoid    1107
Just now, Fill-Lips said:

No, Wendy does need this, wigfrid doesn't need this.

Thinking about this just makes my head hurt, that's how wrong the reasoning is here...

I used to main Wendy and she can handle any situaton thrown at her. She has an easy time killing both beequeen and fuelweaver. Every other boss becomes swiss cheese at her feet and she has no real downsides. For the record abigail would still give Wendy the normal damage boost but not other mobs.

3 minutes ago, VouMorrer said:

i will talk about wendy becouse i dont play much wigfrid.

yes, wendy do need this buff becouse it incentivates players to work with abigail as a team, not just stay away from fight and release your sister over your foes.

but i agree with you about the total dps. it is too high.

reducing a bit abigail base damage but keeping the petals buff would be better than removing the buff.

Abigail would still buff Wendy just not other mobs. She wouldnt give Wolfgang a 10% damage increase but wendy would still get the 1.55. Why does abigail protect Wolgang? 

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VouMorrer    327
3 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Abigail would still buff Wendy just not other mobs. She wouldnt give Wolfgang a 10% damage increase but wendy would still get the 1.55. Why does abigail protect Wolgang? 

yes, i think that makes sense. 

about wigfrid, the ones i see around dont seem to need any buff, but i can be wrong .

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Mike23Ua    9611

The reason this buff exists, to help other players- is so Wendy can actually make the life of characters like Wes significantly easier.

The damage boost buff will help Wes waste less weapons.. and that alone is reason why it should remain.

Wigfrid already has her OWN types of team buffs.. Why take this away from Wendy and give it to Wigfrid also?

Just craft and use the stagecraft songs to boost team mates as Wig.

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Wendy C.    254

The entire point is that this is a TEAM game. The HP of the bosses is significantly increased from the Singleplayer experience. 
With TEAMWORK being the objective, it is obvious that Abigail is going to help everyone. She is her own person. She's not my pet. 
Yes, the Buff she gives to me is greater than other characters, but I also deal less damage by myself anyways, and she's my sister. 
The greatest threat to Abigail's safety and her ability to dispose of threats is people not helping her and just watching. She can do a lot of damage and also attacks fast enough that she can draw most of the aggro from the monsters. If Abigail gets the first hit on a Tentacle, it will ONLY attack her, leaving it vulnerable to attack from every other player. With this, Abigail and I can clear an entire swamp of Tentacles. 

She buffs other players so that they are incentivized to actually help her and not just stand around and watch her do their jobs for them. 
She's not immortal, she's not a goddess, and she's not Over-Powered. She has reasonable limits and cannot do everything by herself. 

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Bird Up    2293

wendy does not do 'almost twice the damage' as wigfrid. assuming wendy is using the petal debuff, she does 78 (not 120) with dark sword. wigfrid does 85 with dark sword all the time. while abigail can do 40 damage in best conditions, it's much slower than regular attacks from playable characters.

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Viktor234    5383
1 hour ago, Wendy C. said:

She's not immortal, she's not a goddess, and she's not Over-Powered. She has reasonable limits and cannot do everything by herself. 

2nd highest DPS, can kill mobs en masse by pressing rmb on her flower, most popular character in DST. I think a nerf wouldn't hurt her at all.

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GelatinousCube    634

I love this idea, the ability makes far more sense on Wigfrid and could easily be made into a new book so that it isn't overpowered and can only really be used on bosses/longer battles. It should give a tiny buff so it isn't overpowered but should apply to other players as well as followers to give Pigmen/Bunnymen a small boost as well.

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Pinegrove    1756

Hmm, a damage boost song. This is such an obvious thing, but it hasn't been added in her rework because Klei made a decision not to. If I were to give it a name, I would call it "Fracture Overture", hehe. 

I can try to guess why Klei decided not to include this addition:

—The songs, unlike potions, aren't there to aid a downside. They're supposed to be a small boost that Wigfrid, who is already strong and can help others through battle armor, can offer her allies. Wendy on the other hand needs something to directly boost her naturally low damage output. 

—A damage boost song wouldn't fit in her already existing arsenal, simply because it's way too good. A flat damage boost would make the other songs fade in comparison. 

—The most obvious reason is that it would make her way too strong, throwing off her balance. Unlike Wolfgang, Wigfrid is strong enough to be a solid pick, but not strong enough to be a broken, unbalanced character. 

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gghhrr    382

tbh I agree Wendy need the buff, but damage that Abigail can deal might need nerf

I can completely ignore any hounds attack and spider farming, just chill there and watch Abigail finish all the works

Abigail is just a zero cost labor to me

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HowlVoid    1107
5 hours ago, Bird Up said:

wendy does not do 'almost twice the damage' as wigfrid. assuming wendy is using the petal debuff, she does 78 (not 120) with dark sword. wigfrid does 85 with dark sword all the time. while abigail can do 40 damage in best conditions, it's much slower than regular attacks from playable characters.

I was taking abigail's damage into consideration too. How would you not count abigail's damage as a part of wendys tool kit? Too many people are acting like abigail is a separate person or something. Shes just one of wendys perks, nothing more and nothing less. You do have point about the attack speed though.

5 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

2nd highest DPS, can kill mobs en masse by pressing rmb on her flower, most popular character in DST. I think a nerf wouldn't hurt her at all.

Exactly! People are acting like I asked to break Wendys knee caps or something. She honestly wouldn't miss the debuff affecting others at all. Its 10% for crying out loud and that 10% doesn't even affect her directly. If anything it incentivizes people to attack while wendy stands back and watches.

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Ohan    1896

Wendy already provides a lot of utility for the team in the form of effortlessly farming smaller mobs and aiding in BQ and Fuelweaver fight. She does not need to boost other players damage too especially when this mechanic would make a lot more sense on the Bard character.

Wigfrid didnt get this because Wendy already had it and the last thing we want is more damage amps in the game for Wolfgang. It couldve been that it only buffs the damage of allies and to a much lesser degree that of Wigfrid herself. So it would serve more to buff the damage of weaker fighters like Wes (and once upon a time Wendy..)

I think its ridiculous that Wendy went from 0,75 damage to the second highest in the game. But i dont think thats ever going to change at this point :shrug: 

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QuartzBeam    3549
49 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I was taking abigail's damage into consideration too. How would you not count abigail's damage as a part of wendys tool kit? Too many people are acting like abigail is a separate person or something. Shes just one of wendys perks, nothing more and nothing less. You do have point about the attack speed though.

If you wanna do a fair comparison of the two, you need to compare damage per second, not damage per hit, cause Abigail attacks half as fast as player characters do.

Characters attack twice per second, while Abigail attacks once per second, so Dark Sword DPS for Wigfrid and Wendy goes like this:

Wigfrid = 68 * 1.25 * 2 = 170 DPS

Wendy = 68 * 1.155 * 2 + 15/25/40 = 157 + 15/25/40 = 172/182/197 DPS

That means Wendy deals 1% more DPS during the day, 7% more damage during dusk and 16% more damage during the night. That's not remotely close to "twice as much".

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HowlVoid    1107
2 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

If you wanna do a fair comparison of the two, you need to compare damage per second, not damage per hit, cause Abigail attacks half as fast as player characters do.

Characters attack twice per second, while Abigail attacks once per second, so Dark Sword DPS for Wigfrid and Wendy goes like this:

Wigfrid = 68 * 1.25 * 2 = 170 DPS

Wendy = 68 * 1.155 * 2 + 15/25/40 = 157 + 15/25/40 = 172/182/197 DPS

That means Wendy deals 1% more DPS during the day, 7% more damage during dusk and 16% more damage during the night. That's not remotely close to "twice as much".

Right, like I said, he has a point. I still think wigfrid should be doing more damage though. I feel like everyone is missing the point though... The only reason why I picked wendy is because she already does so much damage (16% more is a lot)  over wigfrid that I dont believe she needs the extra 10% damage boost from mobs. Lets not forget thats 16% more damage over several mobs. SEVERAL. It does become far more that twice the damage when considering abigail can face tank a frog rain. Wendy can face tank bee queen. Lets not pretend its 16% more and thats it. Shes suposed to be first in group damage but beng second in single target damage also is a bit much, with very minor draw backs and utility to boot.

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Wardin25    1495

Wigfrid. is. strong. enough.

And Wendys buff doesnt come into play that much given that there arent many enemies that abigail excels at killing with her AoE that needs Wendy to help her out, and if you send abigail against a boss then you are just asking for her to be killed

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HowlVoid    1107
1 hour ago, Parusoid said:

Abigail buff was added to encourage wendy (and the team) and abi fighting together, not just sending abi alone into the crowd of mobs

 

Try posting it in correct forums tho https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/forum/76-dont-starve-together-suggestions-and-feedback/

I posted it here to discuss the potential viability of it and not necessarily to be implemented. At this is point it is way past Wendy's and Wigfrid's rework and I doubt klei would take the time to go back when they currently have so much to work on and the event coming soon next year. Just a fun discussion is all. 

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Mike23Ua    9611

If you play on PC then everything about your game is probably too easy, if you play on Xbox, Playstation or on PC using an Xbox Controller... then everything is NOT as easy.

The things you complain about may be valid for PC with a Keyboard and Mouse, but use a controller and you start to see a staggering difference in both utility of the feature & the players ability to use it.

For example: to safely return Abigail into her flower using a CONTROLLER requires you to be standing within spear slapping distance of Abigail and pressing a button prompt to return her to her flower, which means.... Console players can’t just drag the flower out of their inventory and over Abigail to return her to her flower and Heal her up safely- Abigail is always active and always dead center of the fight for you to return her to her flower requires YOU to also be dead center of that fight.

Complaining about how Abigail easily kills large group mobs like frogs, spiders, bees, bats and hound waves is silly: This is what Abigail is DESIGNED to do- just the same as how Bernie is designed to wreck Shadow Creatures.

Playing Wortox while using a Controller players will have an always on screen glowing indicator of a pre-set range of where they will teleport to and they only teleport in the direction Wortox is currently facing, giving the PC version a significant difference in performance and Utility.

The TL:DR if you think the games too easy with Keyboard and Mouse try using a control where basic function becomes more limited.

As a Wendy Main: Having to actually be dead center of the fight to safely return Abigail and heal her up so she does not die is a colossal difference from being able to stand at a safe distance away from the action and return her to heal/apply new potions without her dying.

Wigfrid vampires health and sanity from the enemies she hits, she has song scrolls that will increase the durability of her weapons and make enemies run away from her in fear, in addition to that- Wigfrid also has a higher health threshold due to her vampirism traits then Wendy could ever dream of.

Case in point: Wigfrid can face tank dragonfly, and ancient guardian without needing much else, try to face tank them as Wendy and Abigails going to die, then your going to die because you let Abigail die.

Wigfrid most certainly does not need Abigails petal Bestowment buff.

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Picklesaurus    345

I have seen people bringing up Wes when talking about why this kind of damage buff should be allowed and I want to clarify something:
Wes is the character that benefits the least from this sort of damage buff.
I'll explain, Wes's damage modifier (0,75x) undermines the effect of abigail's 10% extra damage when compared to other characters that have higher damage modifiers. 

  • Wes's damage being affected by this buff : 0,75 x 1,1 = 0,825 -> the difference between his damage before and after the buff is x 0,075
  • Wilson's damage being affected by this buff: 1,0 x 1,1 = 1,1 -> the difference between his damage before and after  the buff is  x 0,1
  • Wolfgang's full belly damage being affected by this buff = 2,0 x 1,1 = 2,2 -> the difference between his damage before and after the buff is x 0,2.

As you can see 10% of wes's damage is less than 10% of most characters damage, this is also the reason why damage buffs (Abigail's petals, Volt Goat Chaud-Froid, Chili flakes) are so strong/scary on wolfgang.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Mike23Ua    9611
10 minutes ago, Picklesaurus said:

I have seen people bringing up Wes when talking about why this kind of damage buff should be allowed and I want to clarify something:
Wes is the character that benefits the least from this sort of damage buff.
I'll explain, Wes's damage modifier (0,75x) undermines the effect of abigail's 10% extra damage when compared to other characters that have higher damage modifiers. 

  • Wes's damage being affected by this buff : 0,75 x 1,1 = 0,825 -> the difference between his damage before and after the buff is x 0,075
  • Wilson's damage being affected by this buff: 1,0 x 1,1 = 1,1 -> the difference between his damage before and after  the buff is  x 0,1
  • Wolfgang's full belly damage being affected by this buff = 2,0 x 1,1 = 2,2 -> the difference between his damage before and after the buff is x 0,2.

As you can see 10% of wes's damage is less than 10% of most characters damage, this is also the reason why damage buffs (Abigail's pentals, Volt Goat Chaud-Froid, Chili flakes) are so strong/scary on wolfgang.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wes and Wolfgang both have not yet had their reworks- for all we know, Wes could be getting an increase to his damage when attacking things that are being petal buffed when he finally gets his refresh.. and Wolfgang well he’s broken heavily broken.. and I hope they give him proper Nerfs/balance but at the same exact time they do not make him any less of the Strongman he is meant to be.

Taking away his ability to become Mighty from just eating foods would work wonders for the character, if he wants to remain mighty then he needs to perform mighty actions (kinda like Wigfrids inspiration meter.. except his would drain significantly slower.. Wigfrids drains so fast it’s hard to get any use out of her song scrolls unless engaged in non-stop battle)

For Wolfgang I predict things will be a bit different: having to lift his signature dumbell (which takes about as long as it takes Wendy to whisper commands into her sisters flower) to maintain mighty form sounds balanced enough, he would move heavy things like the broken statue parts without move speed penalty.

I don’t consider discussing how broken Wolfgang is as being Off-Topic because: everything seems to center around him-

case in point: if the people crying that the petal buff Abigail applies to Wolfgang is too godly saw Wolfgang get a proper hard nerf that required him to have to engage in his own unique deep gameplay and mechanics then those people would STOP complaining. (I hope..)

As a Wendy main I will admit that Abigail is over powered- but what everyone who probably doesn’t main Wendy is Completely over looking is that it takes a significant amount of time, setup costs, resources to get her to that level- I have to build Sisturn, fuel Sisturn, monitor and care for Sisturn replacing spoiled petals when needed, explore graveyards, locate lost things for a brand new Wendy exclusive Mob and craft potions to improve Abigails effectiveness-

SURELY you don’t just think Abigail becomes this unstoppable wrecking machine on her own do you???

Wolfgang however in his current form is just “Eat Food, Be Mighty” there’s no unique structure he needs to interact with, there’s no exclusive to him mob or feature he has to actively engage with to maintain his overpowered-ness.. he is just (in my opinion) the most broken thing ever.

Yes Wendy’s rework is absolutely amazing but, it also takes time and setup to get Abigail to that point, just like it should take time and set up to get Wicker or Wolfgang to their most effective uses.

Wolf and Wicker haven’t had their refreshes yet- but one only needs compare all the changes Klei has done to Wendy, Wurt, and most recently Wormwood with RWYS... to see the direction the Overpowered characters need to go.

 

The TL:DR- If Something is OP let it remain to be OP.. but make absolute certain that in order to achieve that level of OP that it requires significant setup time to achieve, make being OP feel rewarding.. that you’ve earned it, not CHEAP that you just ate a few Meatballs and now will face the world with your Superman punches.

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Picklesaurus    345
4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

case in point: if the people crying that the petal buff Abigail applies to Wolfgang is too godly saw Wolfgang get a proper hard nerf that required him to have to engage in his own unique deep gameplay and mechanics then those people would STOP complaining. (I hope..)

There is an easier way to make abigail's petal interaction with wolfgang be more in line with others: make it a flat amount of damage that can't be modified by any means, for example an on hit effect that deals + 5 damage. This idea could be applied to any damage buffs that are fine on other characters but problematic on wolf. Also, a change like this would benefit characters with a lower damage modifier the most since flat increase is percentually better for lower numbers. 

  • Wes's damage affected by pentals % damage buff when using a dark sword -> 0,75 x 1,1 x 68  = 56,1 -> 10% increase in damage provided by abigail's petals
  • Full Belly Wolf damage affected by pentals % damage buff when using a dark sword  -> 2,0 x 1,1 x  68  = 149,6 -> 10% increase in damage provided by abigail's petals

If it were +5 flat damage:

  • Wes's damage affected by + 5 flat damage when using dark sword -> 0,75 x 68 + 5 = 56 -> 9,8% increase in damage provided by abigail's petals
  • Full Belly Wolf affected by + 5 flat damage when using dark sword -> 2,0 x 68 + 5 = 141 -> 3,68% increase in damage provided by abigail's petals

(The flat +5 damage is just a number I chose as an example, it could be any number klei finds proper/balanced.)

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