Smithe37

Who needs a Cargo Bay anyway?

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RonEmpire    645

You probably won't need it. only reason I can think of for using a cargo bay would be automated transfer of ore for auto piloted rockets in the future.     One other possible reason would be temperature of ore or later on radiation maybe.  But for now cargo bay is not needed. 

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RonEmpire    645

Only reason to travel to other asteroids in the outers cluster is to get the   rare  metal  from the volcanoes.    
There's a very hot magma planet.    Transporting those metal in your cock pit is going to be a bad idea.  So that's the only possible reason i can think of is to put the hot materials in your carbo bay.

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Sasza22    3127
2 minutes ago, Smithe37 said:

They could just remove the ability to build storage containers in the spacefarer module

You can still use automatic dispensers or even door setups to put stuff on the ground. It needs to count the weight of the interior and calculate the range based on that.

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AndreyKl    140
On 12/16/2020 at 2:22 PM, Sasza22 said:

Yes it`s a weird balance issue. 2 tiles in a command module can carry multiple times more resources than the cargo module. If you build an auto dipenser you can fit infinite resources in a single tile. No easy way to address that without redoing how command modules work.

If devs add some kind of randomly passing 'single use' asteroids that get loaded into cargo bay automatically, cargo module will have a solid usage. 

On 12/16/2020 at 10:26 PM, Sasza22 said:

It needs to count the weight of the interior and calculate the range based on that.

That would be fair, but interior still weights a lot more than rocket's cargo bay is supposed to carry, on top of that if player builds something like algae oxidizer or terrarium for long trip, it will require additional mass, potentially even some stored resources. Cargo bay should compliment flexibility of new 'command modules' not make those harder to use for intended purpose.

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blash365    775
On 12/16/2020 at 1:22 PM, Sasza22 said:

Yes it`s a weird balance issue. 2 tiles in a command module can carry multiple times more resources than the cargo module. If you build an auto dipenser you can fit infinite resources in a single tile. No easy way to address that without redoing how command modules work.

Simple way would be to limit the choices that can be built in the rocket. E.g. only allow rocket-specific buildings. But that would also require alot more content.

 

The other simple way would be to make cargo modules alot more convienent.

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chemie    744
On 12/16/2020 at 7:22 AM, Sasza22 said:

Yes it`s a weird balance issue. 2 tiles in a command module can carry multiple times more resources than the cargo module. If you build an auto dipenser you can fit infinite resources in a single tile. No easy way to address that without redoing how command modules work.

except infinite vs 600kg I think I would cool it down locally first.  Bottom line is that for all the asteroids except starting one, send some rovers to strip mine, then send one rocket to bring it all back, then never need to go back.

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AndreyKl    140
10 hours ago, blash365 said:

Simple way would be to limit the choices that can be built in the rocket. E.g. only allow rocket-specific buildings. But that would also require alot more content.

If you remove all those 'secondary' options, drop any materials stored on the floor to outside on launch, e t c, then what is the point of having customizable command module? Besides you do need to be able to store algae or oxylite in there, potentially dirt for toilets.

My suggestion:

  1. Total weight of rocket's content, including content of command module, should affect range and speed, rockets that are too heavy shouldn't be able to lift (rockets will need some kind of range indication on map).
  2. Cargo capacity of cargo module should increase, but instead speed should decrease, trip should take much longer to limit throughput (this likely means that command module will need some kind of life support, like O2+H2O input, small internal storage, CO2 and polluted water output to make longer trips viable)
  3. Give cargo modules more long-term functions, like ability to 'scoop' single use asteroids that sometimes pass nearby

End goal: When choosing between compactor and cargo module, they should be roughly equal in almost everything including mass/capacity ratio, should affect rocket in the same way, with cargo module being automatable and not taking space inside command module, but instead taking a 'module' slot of the rocket. Throughput needs to be decreased by increasing travel time, otherwise there will be less of a point in building automation. When you can click 'launch' and have 30T of material delivered in 3 cycles, what's the point of automating? Player should be forced to chose between faster trip and larger capacity, between automated deliveries and singular bulk deliveries.

Edited by AndreyKl

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Sasza22    3127
10 hours ago, blash365 said:

Simple way would be to limit the choices that can be built in the rocket. E.g. only allow rocket-specific buildings. But that would also require alot more content.

We would have to limit the interior to just a handful of buildings. Even a simple door is enough to force dupes to drop items on the ground. Actually just building and deconstructing stuff is enough to leave debris laying around and it doesn`t even need any setup inside the rocket.

10 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

That would be fair, but interior still weights a lot more than rocket's cargo bay is supposed to carry, on top of that if player builds something like algae oxidizer or terrarium for long trip, it will require additional mass, potentially even some stored resources

The best way to do that is limit the overall mass of the command module to something "reasonable". Lets say it should be able to carry all the necessary stuff (power generation, oxygen/algae supply, food supply, some furniture in the bigger one etc.) that couldbe a few tons of equipment but above that it would enter an overload state making it unable to liftoff or hinder the range.

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blash365    775
38 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

We would have to limit the interior to just a handful of buildings. Even a simple door is enough to force dupes to drop items on the ground. Actually just building and deconstructing stuff is enough to leave debris laying around and it doesn`t even need any setup inside the rocket.

Yes, but most players would consider this as a nuissance and would rather stick to the storage module.

38 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

The best way to do that is limit the overall mass of the command module to something "reasonable". Lets say it should be able to carry all the necessary stuff (power generation, oxygen/algae supply, food supply, some furniture in the bigger one etc.) that couldbe a few tons of equipment but above that it would enter an overload state making it unable to liftoff or hinder the range.

Well then you might as well only allow command-module specific buildings. Both suggestions restrict the players choices. Both of which i'd consider not in the best interest of ONI.

 

 

 

I am still hoping for a new rocket module ("Recycling module") which will change up the way we use our rockets right now. It should basically be a mini colony, which stores, collects and converts resources to lengthen the time a rocket can support dupes before they run out of food or oxygen.

Edited by blash365

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AndreyKl    140
1 hour ago, blash365 said:

Yes, but most players would consider this as a nuissance and would rather stick to the storage module.

A handful of batteries, insulated tiles or refrigerators is all that is needed to outperform cargo bay, it is hardly a nuisance to schedule multiple of them in larger module and then deconstruct after arrival (or before launch).

1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

Even a simple door is enough to force dupes to drop items on the ground.

This is relatively easy to overcome. Devs probably can make rocket drop content from inside onto floor below rocket during launch. The real problem is that players need at least some form of a storage for polluted dirt, oxylite or whatever monstrosity they come up with (for those who prefer this type of LS), so there is little point in restricting player from building compactors and dropping floor's content.

1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

The best way to do that is limit the overall mass of the command module to something "reasonable". Lets say it should be able to carry all the necessary stuff (power generation, oxygen/algae supply, food supply, some furniture in the bigger one etc.) that couldbe a few tons of equipment but above that it would enter an overload state making it unable to liftoff or hinder the range.

"a few tons" specifically for command module sounds like a "hard" limit, I would rather have improved (viable competition) cargo bay and "softer" limit of 'more mass=>less range', that sounds a lot more fun.

Besides "a few tons" is way too little: 400kg refrigerator or ration box (it isn't essential, but it can be more convenient compared to vacuum tile), 150+kg of wires, 200kg batteries, 200kg manual generator (but realistically, power should be external with only batteries inside), 1000kg tiles, doors and ladders (likely more, depends onto module), 200Kg+200Kg outhouse, 200Kg cot.

That's already 2550kg in vacuum, without accounting food, but 'automatable' rocket will also need something for oxygen production/maintenance (which also should have been external), which can add at least 400kg more, atmosphere, some decor. Rockets for long term deployment (the ones with scanners) will need even heavier command module. Even 4T might end up too tight for some genuine 'builds'.

Limiting player's options and flexibility in game like ONI is rarely a good choice. It is the cargo module and rocket as a whole that needs adjustments, not command module.

Edited by AndreyKl
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Sasza22    3127
2 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

Besides "a few tons" is way too little: 400kg refrigerator or ration box (it isn't essential, but it can be more convenient compared to vacuum tile), 150+kg of wires, 200kg batteries, 200kg manual generator (but realistically, power should be external with only batteries inside), 1000kg tiles, doors and ladders (likely more, depends onto module), 200Kg+200Kg outhouse, 200Kg cot.

That's already 2550kg in vacuum, without accounting food, but 'automatable' rocket will also need something for oxygen production/maintenance (which also should have been external), which can add at least 400kg more, atmosphere, some decor. Rockets for long term deployment (the ones with scanners) will need even heavier command module. Even 4T might end up too tight for some genuine 'builds'.

I was thinking about a limit close to 4-6 tons for the small command module and about 10-20 for the bigger. It would allow you to fit a lot of stuff but not exploit it by putting full storage compactors or making an infinite gas/liquid storage setup. It needs some math to be done. Overall it wouldn`t remove the option to bring some stuf inside the command modules but it would make it less viable. I think cargo modules would need to be buffed as well for this to work.

3 hours ago, blash365 said:

Well then you might as well only allow command-module specific buildings. Both suggestions restrict the players choices. Both of which i'd consider not in the best interest of ONI.

We could just restrict stuff but if we restrict mass it will be more flexible. We could still decide not to build something to fit something else. With only a set of buildings there wouldn`t be many options and we might end with only one way to build the module.

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blash365    775
1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

We could just restrict stuff but if we restrict mass it will be more flexible. We could still decide not to build something to fit something else. With only a set of buildings there wouldn`t be many options and we might end with only one way to build the module.

Restricting mass seems very arbitrary, since we do it nowhere else in the game (e.g. debris does not pile up).

They could then rather make it a starting condition for the rocket to have it swipped. That should be easy to implement and be a clean condition. But then again it would limit us drastically.

As i said before, i would rather keep the current freedom but provide a much better alternative for cargo that makes cargo modules worthwhile.

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spkthed    96
On 12/20/2020 at 9:09 AM, AndreyKl said:

Limiting player's options and flexibility in game like ONI is rarely a good choice. It is the cargo module and rocket as a whole that needs adjustments, not command module.

Strongly agree. IMO covert the cargo module into a storage module roughly the same size as the big crew cabin. Have the storage module connect to the cabin with in/out liquid/gas pipes, electrical cables, and rails in/out. Same from the storage module to the outside.

The mini world concept already eliminates most of the need to take huge quantities of materials from world to world and rockets have been so un-fun for so long - what better way to bring that joy back by letting people do whatever they want? Want to do steam-turbine power while cooling hot materials on a long journey (or likely nuclear)? That's how real spacecraft in the future likely will get powered. One small step from there and we're ready for ultra-fun:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)

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KonfigSys    123
On 12/20/2020 at 5:57 AM, AndreyKl said:

If devs add some kind of randomly passing 'single use' asteroids that get loaded into cargo bay automatically, cargo module will have a solid usage. 

That would be fair, but interior still weights a lot more than rocket's cargo bay is supposed to carry, on top of that if player builds something like algae oxidizer or terrarium for long trip, it will require additional mass, potentially even some stored resources. Cargo bay should compliment flexibility of new 'command modules' not make those harder to use for intended purpose.

Interesting idea about random asteroids. In a way it combines vanilla game system (where you get resources without mining them) and the DLC system with renewable resources from far away volcanos. But it should be a different module may be? Like scavenger module? In order to make cargo bay useful, Klei simply can increase the storage space 10 folds and every one starts using it. Also add segregation so not only one material can be carried.

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ZanthraSW    65

Something to consider is that a lot of this is looking at the cargo bay based on the current balance of the DLC, but that will change as the more powerful rocket engines are released. The cost of one module is quite high right now on either of the available engines, and the benefits to automating a rocket supply route are low. The fact that the cargo module triggers the auto crew condition while unloading and loading gives it an automation advantage over storing cargo in the command capsule.


If you are sending a load of resources one time, load them in the capsule, but if you are setting up an automated supply shuttle, the cargo bay provides a lot more control, and may not be as relatively costly when the rest of the rocket technologies return.

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silverbluep    32

I like the sum up the weight of all items in the cockpit solution. But then again; you need so many resources to sustain people in the mini asteroid; that it's not plausible.

My take would be; the cones and spacefarer modules should be loadable with certain resources (things you need like water for bathrooms, food for eating, oxygen; and some internal battery for devices) then are made available through pipes, rails and sockets in the internal dimensions. And a set of release pipes to deposit waste into the vacuum during flight.

Right now i think there is a huge space issue with cockpits; they are not sized enough to keep astronauts in a non-stress state for more than a few days. (you have to hyper optimize or break the walls and exploit them like brothgar right now; but that is not conductive for the casual players.) This solves both issues; as you don't need to plop sustainable systems inside the cockpits like water tanks and filter machines or oxygen producers. Just one vent for oxygen, plug in a bathroom that takes in water, put a conveyor receptacle that keeps food and then anything extra for all the things you want to have in the cockpit. You can pump co2 and polluted water outside the rocket. That is enough for one dupe to survive; and probably is much more realistic in terms of rockets.

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AndreyKl    140
15 hours ago, silverbluep said:

you need so many resources to sustain people in the mini asteroid; that it's not plausible.

I see no problems with independent sustainability of Mini asteroids. Oxygen power and food production seem to fit without much issues. And how sustainability is related to Cargo Bay? Perhaps you meant 'sustainable' cockpit? Either way the topic is about Cargo bays being almost useless.

P.S. Repeating same 'economy' again and again on each asteroid is very tedious and annoying... Especially volcanoes, there are a lot of them, yet each one (sans niobium) requires same setup. 

17 hours ago, ZanthraSW said:

Something to consider is that a lot of this is looking at the cargo bay based on the current balance of the DLC, but that will change as the more powerful rocket engines are released.

That same Cargo Bay was meant to deliver us kilograms of rare resources and low amount of other resources at most. It was never meant for base building.

Player needs literal tones of resources to set up a room around single volcano, automated deliveries of a single 1T shipments once in couple cycles is simply not enough. Getting to higher tier rockets will help by providing more cargo bays, but even 4T each couple cycles is not enough in comparison to required mass for whole 'mini' asteroid. And player will still need different resources, it is much simpler and faster to set compactors than to bother setting up distribution system that will ensure that cargo bays contain various types of solids. 

To be fair: current cargo bay is enough to automatically pick up products of volcanoes. And it might be enough for some simple 'trade' between medium asteroids (still simpler to use compactors).

Edited by AndreyKl
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KonfigSys    123

the current cargo bay is too small to be useful. Ok, even if Klei removes the possibility to use bins in the pilot module (one way or another), using existing cargo bay will become tedious very fast. We will need to build the base before we go to hi-end rockets, there is no refined metal volcanos in swamp start nor in its teleport brother, so all that refined metal should come from the 3rd planet by means of rockets only. We do not have interplanetary cargo shifter yet in the game which may solve the problem.

If the interplanetary thing is in the game then the problem will fade away. Till then I would simply increase the size of cargo bay. However, if we have the interplanetary thing why do we need the cargo bay then? May be just for an initial set-up to bring more resources until you build the interplanetary thing. In any case in order the cargo bay to be useful it should be larger.

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ZanthraSW    65
8 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

That same Cargo Bay was meant to deliver us kilograms of rare resources and low amount of other resources at most. It was never meant for base building.

Player needs literal tones of resources to set up a room around single volcano, automated deliveries of a single 1T shipments once in couple cycles is simply not enough. Getting to higher tier rockets will help by providing more cargo bays, but even 4T each couple cycles is not enough in comparison to required mass for whole 'mini' asteroid. And player will still need different resources, it is much simpler and faster to set compactors than to bother setting up distribution system that will ensure that cargo bays contain various types of solids. 

To be fair: current cargo bay is enough to automatically pick up products of volcanoes. And it might be enough for some simple 'trade' between medium asteroids (still simpler to use compactors).

I don't think the cargo bay is really intended for bulk deliveries.

The problem right now is it seems that the automation system is not quite complete, as there is the line on the solid rocket port of, "Uses the solid material filters set on the linked Rocket Platform." unless I am missing something, I have not found any solid material filters there. It also means that the rocket considers that the checklist is complete even without cargo being loaded. The intention there I believe is so set what you want the rocket to launch with, and it will wait until that is satisfied before the rocket will consider the checklist complete, and call an astronaut to the rocket in auto mode, and provide the green signal on the automation output.

In the current state I agree with you that taking the cargo in command capsule is just as easy, but if it is changed to work the way I think it is intended to, then you set the desired goods for each round trip, and once those goods are available and loaded, the astronauts are called to the capsule, the rocket launches, unloads, launches again, then the astronaut can get out and maintenance can be done on the command capsule while goods are made available and the rocket loads again, once it finishes loading, the astronaut boards the capsule again for the next run, without any user interaction. Currently with the automation incomplete, this can't be done, so just loading it all into the command capsule is just as easy, but after the automation using a command capsule would be more difficult as, moving resources in and out of the command capsule without the cargo bay will require manually changing the capsule access mode to load and unload the rocket.

Edited by ZanthraSW

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silverbluep    32
On 12/24/2020 at 11:19 AM, AndreyKl said:

Mini asteroids

I mean the tiny space that cockpits fit inside. I was just theorycrafting on how you would get away with making cargo useful by either disabling dropoff/storage in cockpit or add the weight of everything in cockpit to the rocket weight somehow. Both suggestions were made to make cargo bay useful as opposed to storing things in cockpits.

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