Theukon-dos

Ranking characters on how much they need a re-work and explaining why.

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Mysterious box    345

Kiel has really done all you can do for willow the game does not reward the use of fire in combat and the only way willow could effectively use a fire based power is if they changed the fire system no matter which direction they tried to go with a fire based power it would cause more harm to the world and other players than help.

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Mike23Ua    7751
5 hours ago, chenais said:

I agree with most of this, but do not nerf characters. If you think one is to easy, do not pick him, problem solved, they are tons of other choices anyways. The reason why easier characters is not a bad thing is that they are some extremely difficult bosses to solo if you are new to this, and making them easier due to strong characters will remove a part of the frustration. The only thing strong characters do is allow those are not as good to have fun, and if it is to easy for you then you literally just have to either play another character or give yourself limitations. Its your fault for not doing those if these characters are to easy. 

I disagree with ALL of this, respectively.. I understand your opinion but here’s how I feel- Maybe I just like Wendy? Maybe I just like having a helpful ghost sister to do things for me and help me out?
(Solo Player) But MAYBE I Want Wendy to have the challenges of Wormwood where I can’t heal from eating food and can only heal using the actual healing tab in game.

The character you pick to play as shouldn’t be the single defining factor of how easy or how hard your gameplay will be.

Edited by Mike23Ua
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gaymime    3610
4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The character you pick to play as shouldn’t be the single defining factor of how easy or how hard your gameplay will be.

yeah but that is exactly what you are wanting to have happen when you ask for nerfs. you are asking to make the character harder for some people to play with which is pretty much functionally the same but also with the added bonus that even less people can play the character

 

noone is disadvantaged if you have some self-control while playing an easy character but people who aren't very good at the game(in full or part) are disadvantaged when there are less characters they can actually play because the "easy" chars have gotten nerfed into the ground

 

 

 

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CameoAppearance    2575
On 8/16/2020 at 8:28 AM, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Because at no point in rest of DS/T materials was Willow pictured as having mental fire powers (pyrokinesis).

I don't care about the rest of this argument but she can start low sanity fires with a completely empty inventory in DS singleplayer. (It's not even that unlikely of a situation to get into since reviving empties your inventory and sets your sanity to half.) Both "this is a simplified, abstracted depiction of her compulsively setting fires with her lighter and it was better for gameplay to make it still happen when she has no firelighting materials" and "Willow can set things on fire with her mind alone" are equally valid interpretations of what's happening there.

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ArubaroBeefalo    4924
4 hours ago, CameoAppearance said:

I don't care about the rest of this argument but she can start low sanity fires with a completely empty inventory in DS singleplayer. (It's not even that unlikely of a situation to get into since reviving empties your inventory and sets your sanity to half.) Both "this is a simplified, abstracted depiction of her compulsively setting fires with her lighter and it was better for gameplay to make it still happen when she has no firelighting materials" and "Willow can set things on fire with her mind alone" are equally valid interpretations of what's happening there.

All the characters in DS had a mental issue that klei has change in dst to cute powers so she was a piromaniac

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Mike23Ua    7751
9 hours ago, gaymime said:

yeah but that is exactly what you are wanting to have happen when you ask for nerfs. you are asking to make the character harder for some people to play with which is pretty much functionally the same but also with the added bonus that even less people can play the character

 

noone is disadvantaged if you have some self-control while playing an easy character but people who aren't very good at the game(in full or part) are disadvantaged when there are less characters they can actually play because the "easy" chars have gotten nerfed into the ground

 

 

 

Alright- I’ll try to explain this one more time, on PC there’s a steam workshop and for PC players they can create their own unique characters through the powers of mods and this menu slam full of things that they can pick for their modded character giving them each their own Advantages & Disadvantages.. (for simplicity sake let’s just call this menu their personal character customization screen)

The game needs a menu like this outside of mods that lets players choose if THEY want to play as Wendy with Wolfgang health (because they might suck at the game & actually need that Higher Health) or if they’re really good at the game they can play with Lower Wes or Maxwell type Health.

Because I’m a Wendy main we are going to use her as my example for most the rest of this post, okay so now my Wendy has 75 total Hp, But maybe I want the added challenge of Wormwoods inability to eat food to heal, so I can then toggle something like “Does food heal you?” Yes/No/Random.

So now I have Wendy both with Maxwell Health & Wormwood Challenge.

Options you would select in the character selection menu before upon joining a world for the first time.. that ONLY effect you and You alone, making the character you select to play as no longer being the single defining factor of how easy or how hard playing as them is going to be.

Maybe someone has lots of cool Wes skins but can’t actually play his default play style, so maybe they want to give themselves higher health, standard damage.

Maybe someone wants to play Wickerbottom with Wurts Downside of only being able to eat veggies- It makes sense considering she’s an old lady with fragile teeth and needs to eat soft foods that aren’t going to break her teeth.

Character specific abilities- like summoning Abigail, soul hop etc all of that should remain exclusive to that character- but what should no longer be tied down to the character you pick are their Pros & Cons.

Maybe I want to play as Wortox but with Walters downside of being hurt continuously drains sanity..

Things we would not actually NEED a Mod menu to do if Klei devoted time into doing.

Last but probably most important of all- people would be able to buy skins and belonging sets for characters they otherwise would’ve had no interest at all in ever playing as because the CHARACTER was either too easy or too hard for them.

 

9 hours ago, CameoAppearance said:

I don't care about the rest of this argument but she can start low sanity fires with a completely empty inventory in DS singleplayer. (It's not even that unlikely of a situation to get into since reviving empties your inventory and sets your sanity to half.) Both "this is a simplified, abstracted depiction of her compulsively setting fires with her lighter and it was better for gameplay to make it still happen when she has no firelighting materials" and "Willow can set things on fire with her mind alone" are equally valid interpretations of what's happening there.

Also I’m pretty sure they just did it that way in solo DS because the fire starting animation had her pull out her lighter & use it.. not light it on fire with Mental powers

Edited by Mike23Ua

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Well-met    3898
7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Alright- I’ll try to explain this one more time, on PC there’s a steam workshop and for PC players they can create their own unique characters through the powers of mods and this menu slam full of things that they can pick for their modded character giving them each their own Advantages & Disadvantages.. (for simplicity sake let’s just call this menu their personal character customization screen)

The game needs a menu like this outside of mods that lets players choose if THEY want to play as Wendy with Wolfgang health (because they might suck at the game & actually need that Higher Health) or if they’re really good at the game they can play with Lower Wes or Maxwell type Health.

Because I’m a Wendy main we are going to use her as my example for most the rest of this post, okay so now my Wendy has 75 total Hp, But maybe I want the added challenge of Wormwoods inability to eat food to heal, so I can then toggle something like “Does food heal you?” Yes/No/Random.

So now I have Wendy both with Maxwell Health & Wormwood Challenge.

Options you would select in the character selection menu before upon joining a world for the first time.. that ONLY effect you and You alone, making the character you select to play as no longer being the single defining factor of how easy or how hard playing as them is going to be.

Maybe someone has lots of cool Wes skins but can’t actually play his default play style, so maybe they want to give themselves higher health, standard damage.

Maybe someone wants to play Wickerbottom with Wurts Downside of only being able to eat veggies- It makes sense considering she’s an old lady with fragile teeth and needs to eat soft foods that aren’t going to break her teeth.

Character specific abilities- like summoning Abigail, soul hop etc all of that should remain exclusive to that character- but what should no longer be tied down to the character you pick are their Pros & Cons.

Maybe I want to play as Wortox but with Walters downside of being hurt continuously drains sanity..

Things we would not actually NEED a Mod menu to do if Klei devoted time into doing.

Last but probably most important of all- people would be able to buy skins and belonging sets for characters they otherwise would’ve had no interest at all in ever playing as because the CHARACTER was either too easy or too hard for them.

 

Also I’m pretty sure they just did it that way in solo DS because the fire starting animation had her pull out her lighter & use it.. not light it on fire with Mental powers

Your point may have some value if DST was a singleplayer game where you can build a character from the ground-up.

It's not and it's impossible to have a "perk pool" without destroying the entire established system of pre-made characters.

Also Wendy is way too good now.

Edited by Well-met
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Mike23Ua    7751
1 minute ago, Well-met said:

Your point may have some value if DST was a singleplayer game where you can build a character from the ground-up.

It's not and it's impossible to have a "perk pool" without destroying the entire established system of pre-made characters.

Meh.. I’ve played plenty of multiplayer games that give me this option as well- on paper it sounds broken, but just go play any game ever that’s already done it... and you’ll quickly see that all it actually does is give the people playing the game a lot more control over how they play their game.

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Well-met    3898
7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Meh.. I’ve played plenty of multiplayer games that give me this option as well- on paper it sounds broken, but just go play any game ever that’s already done it... and you’ll quickly see that all it actually does is give the people playing the game a lot more control over how they play their game.

That's nice.

DS series does not and never had RPG-ish character creation.

The clothes and skins are the closest thing we will ever have to this. Aswell as modding your own character in of course.

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ArubaroBeefalo    4924
1 minute ago, gaymime said:

i'm not even going to read this since you've said the same thing several times in several threads usually for no reason without anyone asking but i am going to tell you that your obsession with pc mods is really obnoxious and i am really tired of it. please stop putting the onus everyone else to make your personal games more fun for you, heck if it would get you to stop crying and fussing i would gladly give you my extra copy of the game so you can get some perspective

like all pc players play with character mods or mods in generall or like a pc to play dst wasnt cheaper that a xbox...

just dont fed the troll

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Mike23Ua    7751

It’s not about mods, it’s not about making a game into an RPG god... you guys just don’t get it do you?

its about making the same game easily fun and enjoyable for a 4 year old to feel challenged, while at the same exact time letting that 4 year olds 30+ year old father or mother play the game WITH THEM without the 4 year old becoming to frustrated at how insanely difficult the game is, and without the parent being completely bored out of their mind at how easy the game has to be when playing with their kid.

I find it ironic that for a game called Don’t Starve Together that some of you seem head strong set on not making the game more enjoyable to actually PLAY TOGETHER.

 

What I’m suggesting in Most games is generally called a player handicap- and it’s existed in games dating all the way back to the Sega Genesis and SNES era of video gaming.

And the best way I can explain that is like how in WWE 2K games if your really good at the game and want to still be able to play with your kid who is obviously less skilled than you- then you can choose to “handicap” yourself and start a match with already damaged body parts and a shorter meter window to kick out of pins with.

The 2K games may not be the BEST example but they are the most recent examples I can provide without bringing up some 20+ year old game.

If my memory is correct- even the ORIGINAL very first ever Super Smash Bros game on the N64 let you handicap your self so again if your GOOD at the game you could choose to have 3 and a half hearts of health, and if your less skilled friend still wanted to play the game and enjoy it WITH you... then they can have like 10 hearts of health.

Making the game fun and fair for both skill level players playing.

And while I realize that DST is NOT a player vs Player game- What YOU guys need to realize is when I have to turn OFF every season except Autumn, OFF Hound Wave Attacks, OFF Deerclops/Bearger just to play and enjoy the game with my extremely less skilled friend- that there should be some other ways that I can make the game Still challenging TO MYSELF without making my friend who needs all that stuff turned off’s game less enjoyable to them.

 

But the TL:DR- For a game called Don’t Starve TOGETHER, it does very little in terms of actually allowing people of various skill levels to still Play & enjoy the same game TOGETHER.

 

This has NOTHING at all to do with Mods, don’t even bring mods into it... it has EVERYTHING to do with basic functionality features that games dating back 20+ years ago had but DST does not have.

 

And trust me I know why... Because DS was ORIGINALLY a Single Player game... they didn’t NEED to make it accessible to players of various skill levels, But all that changes the very second they make the game Multiplayer & ask you to play TOGETHER.

 

If your going to call me out and criticize the long thought out posts that I take the time to dedicatedly sit here and type out, I only kindly ask that you please understand where I’m coming from before jumping to conclusions 

Thank You, have a nice day :) 

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Well-met    3898

I don't understand where the problem is. You already can make infinite autumn servers and such. What more do you even want?

Also most people play videogames to invest and improve. If they stall they will stop playing it and no feature can change that.

Also this has nothing to do with the topic.

Edited by Well-met
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gaymime    3610
20 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

snip

i understand where you are coming from and that is why i feel so frustrated. you are asking and pleading for changes without being willing to make any of your own. i totally get maining only one char, trust me if any person on this site gets that it is me, freaking gay mime lad; the dude who literally plays up any and all mentions of wes stuff just for the sake of itself but even i understand that there is merit to trying other things, even if it is just a little side game that can be thrown away you have the choice to pick a character that you are not comfortable with the playstyle of for that breath of fresh air and if that is untenable you can intentionally hobble yourself; kill yourself until you are at half-health and don't use a booster: learn how to get better at not being hit by literally making a single hit life-ending(i've done it on several pubs just for a lark). show some restraint and refuse to make crockpot meals(or only use crockpot meals and nothing else). avoid bringing abigail into play, if you are hosting the world burn bushes and mushrooms and trees so you have reduced resources(though be careful since that affects other players too). make a list of things you won't do that day and do not do them; i personally avoid chopping trees unless that tree interferes with my basing(and assuredly that can be very hard). basically do things that aren't optimal and do things that are not easy and do things that you are not accustomed to. for heckin heckity heck someone just told me they once wore a slurper all day just to see if they could survive it. these things are available to all players on all platforms. you just have to be willing to try and willing to not give up

 

and if you want to play with others then you can play normally BUT you give them your resources and let THEM dictate how they are used. you have no idea how crazy some of the games can get when your companion makes 8 pickaxes and 0 torches and you have just the 1 log between you right as evening falls

Edited by gaymime
don't type angry!
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Mike23Ua    7751
7 minutes ago, gaymime said:

i understand where you are coming from. -snip-

Thank you and appreciate your opinion but, Wouldn’t it honestly just be a lot easier and a lot better if I could play as Wortox but with Walters con of not having full health continuously draining my Sanity, and with Wormwoods con of eating stuff won’t heal my own Health points.

Im using Wortox as my example because when playing with my much less skilled than me friend, trust me my friend NEEDS Wortox running around beside him healing him.. and if me not being at full health means I lose sanity- Every time I have to craft a telltale heart to revive my dead friend, means I lose HP and Sanity drains continuously... 

But most important of All... with using my souls or eating stuff no longer healing ME then releasing my souls only heals my less-skilled friend.

 

To summarize- The characters themselves do not need a drastic rework, what needs a rework is how much functionality we can allow ourselves while playing said character.

 

And using the above Wortox stuff as my example- I just made the game challenging to Me... without making it anymore difficult on my friend who could use Wortox’s help staying alive.

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gaymime    3610
20 minutes ago, Well-met said:

Teach your friends how to play instead of carrying them.

or carry them all the way to give yourself a challenge

and a companion at the same time ^^ my husband is rubbish at this game and it is the one i like to play with him the most, hahaha

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chenais    114

@Mike23Ua I think that no character should be weak, so that you can play whoever you want due to play style, but having an easier character is a blessing for newer players that would just get into a frustrating streak of loses.

 

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CameoAppearance    2575
13 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Also I’m pretty sure they just did it that way in solo DS because the fire starting animation had her pull out her lighter & use it.. not light it on fire with Mental powers

That's not true either. There's no special animation, the fire just appears at her feet and she says a quote.

she_made_a_fire.thumb.png.35adb073f811d960564d8220d9b71299.png

oops.png.5d2d169d16dd109c6165425be6dcb686.png

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ArubaroBeefalo    4924
5 hours ago, CameoAppearance said:

That's not true either. There's no special animation, the fire just appears at her feet and she says a quote.

she_made_a_fire.thumb.png.35adb073f811d960564d8220d9b71299.png

oops.png.5d2d169d16dd109c6165425be6dcb686.png

Its simplier to make her start fire without animation than having an animation with the lighter etc. Its a creative license

https://images.app.goo.gl/tVYzAdm1XPZv4UHC6

I dont see mental powers here

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x0-VERSUS-1y    6170
On 8/17/2020 at 2:16 AM, Theukon-dos said:

As has been said, DST isn't just pubs. and thus shouldn't be balanced purely around pubs. Additionally, Wicker's One of the most powerful characters in the game, so if any character where to get an impactful downside it should be her.

I haven't wrote DST "should be balanced purely around pubs", but "don't dismiss majority of player-base game experiences" - pls don't go into extremes. Once more: from my interactions with said player-base majority via pubs, Wicker's downsides have a consistent impact on majority of players playing her (they get a lot less intake from spoiled food, thus demanding more food foraging/hunting and not being able to sleep brings about insanity and its monsters quicker - both factors contributing to newbies/noobs/casual players' demise; and no, I don't consider reading AA on gathered plants, as most players don't efficiently gather-and-group plants). I merely counter-balanced the implied idea only some quite advanced/character-maining players (that already consider DST an easy game in total opposition to vast majority of player-base) can offer valid arguments for re-balances, thus looking for a middle ground. And from my pov, that middle ground is "Wicker cannot read further her books when reaching 0 sanity": this would invalidate the Moon Island and Bone Helm strats for advanced players, requiring a lot more sanity food and in turn bringing about the spawning of a lot more Shadow Creatures with meaningful impact on game-play for said advanced players employing mentioned strats - with this still keeping newbies/noobs/casuals at current level of difficulty without additional cons. Middle ground.

 

On 8/17/2020 at 2:16 AM, Theukon-dos said:

Here's an idea, Maybe instead of balancing around the lowest level of play, We should assume that players are able to Improve and get better at the game. While DST may not be the uncompromising wilderness survival game that DS was, but It is still, at it's heart, a Rouge-like. A game where the fail state is simply how the player improves and get better. While again, DST isn't meant to be uncompromising like it's predicessor. Balancing the game to minimize this aspect would not be a good direction to take the game in.

 

Additionally, Just because the big 3 are so broken doesn't mean they're particularly fun or interesting. There's a lot more nuance to analyzing lists like these than you give credit for.

I am not proposing, again, "balancing around the lowest level of play". But to consider it when balancing characters. Aka "not dismissing bulk player-base experience with the game". Also "the big 3 are so broken" is not a general consensus, but the opinion on a tiny vocal minority of advanced players. If Wicker, Wolf and WX were truly broken, they will be the top 3 picks. But they do have meaningful downsides for player-base at large. I agree they are mechanically powerful characters in the hands of knowledgeable and experienced players and perhaps for that player bracket they would need certain nerfs. And in Wicker's case my proposal was already stated multiple times through this thread.

 

On 8/17/2020 at 2:16 AM, Theukon-dos said:

I wasn't talking about how popular or played Wigfrid is (though this did influence my choice to use her as an example) I was talking about how It was her downsides that made her play differently and uniquely from the rest of the cast.

Popularity is directly tied to pros and cons in a character aside lore and aesthetics. My point was that Wig's popularity isn't because of her "unique con" but despite it: her armor plus weapon, 1.25x attack, 0.75x defense and vampirism make her shine, her game-play enjoyably easy in spite of her restrictive diet (that's actually not that restrictive: meat is as abundant as plants, and she is a fighting-oriented character to boost). Her design as a character is probably the most wholesome in all DS/T from all points of view.

 

On 8/17/2020 at 2:16 AM, Theukon-dos said:

I'd consider myself a mid-range skill player. I don't do raid bosses or ruins runs (Mostly because I don't see the point.) Even if I do want the game to be harder, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about character design and who needs updated. I've Also explained why I want more prominent downsides. It's not because it makes the game harder. It's because downsides are what Define a character and make them play uniquely from everyone else. (atleast I think I mentioned that. you can stab me if I didn't)

At the end of day a punishing downside does in fact make the game-play harder.

 

On 8/17/2020 at 2:16 AM, Theukon-dos said:

First of all, The Terrorbeak lunged her, meaning it was also likely between her and the shelf aswell. Secondly, you can't just use Cartoon physics as a cop out. That's like saying "it's all a dream". It's boring and could solve basically any problem depending on how you look at it.

The Terror in trailer appeared in closest left corner to door in a small form, while Willow was thrown at the opposite end (and remained there). Then it grew in size and camera focused on its eye socket for dramatic effect, making it look like it grew to alarming proportions and coming close to Willow, while doing its titular "roar" animation. "Lunging at her" is debatable. As debatable as how much time passed between that frame and the explosion we see from outside-room perspective. You can claim was pyrokinesis further on, I only see what I've previously wrote: at some point she swiftly took her future-trademark-lighter and lighted on combustibles from shelf's bottles. Else what's the point of lighter? If she could/can light things up with mind, why not go with that from start and have her light trees in night to escape Charlie?! (Do the K-BOOMY when Charlie comes close - and no, I wouldn't desire such outcome)

 

On 8/17/2020 at 2:16 AM, Theukon-dos said:

But from everything I've gathered, You want the game, or at the very least the characters, To be balanced around the lowest common denominator in the skill bracket. A way which would not be a good way to go.

For the 3rd time in this post: no, I don't want balancing to be done around "lowest common denominator"; if that was the case I would lobby for Wicker buffs. I solely want KLei to not dismiss newbies/noobs/casuals/mid-ranged players' experiences with game as opposed to what some "try-hard" advanced players desire (as per their posts; i.e. "sanity is a joke, needs to be a lot harder").

 

On 8/17/2020 at 2:16 AM, Theukon-dos said:

I don't want Willow to be a greif machine. I want willow to be the pyromaniac she was designed to be. 

Sadly, as Mysterious put it, you cannot have a pyromaniac without having a lot of damage done to world and player-made structures too - else she won't be a pyro-maniac: a maniac starting random fires. Your example from Uncompromising Mod is a perfect incarnation of a very-destructive fire force, shunned by anyone who wants to have some modicum of base (but very-in-tune with its developer's wishes for DS/T to not be base-oriented at all, rather pure Survival-combat where destruction reigns supreme).

Still, in the spirit of middle-ground, here is another less-destructive pyro-proposal: aside inventory burning, have Willow be able to give 25%+ durability to Fire Staff and Torch, with additional 25%+ (perhaps even 50%+) damage done via Fire Staff/Torch. Thus you won't have previous K-BOOMY Willow idea kick-galore in future from servers any Willow player as am sure such re-rework would bring about.

 

  

On 8/18/2020 at 8:37 AM, CameoAppearance said:

I don't care about the rest of this argument but she can start low sanity fires with a completely empty inventory in DS singleplayer. (It's not even that unlikely of a situation to get into since reviving empties your inventory and sets your sanity to half.) Both "this is a simplified, abstracted depiction of her compulsively setting fires with her lighter and it was better for gameplay to make it still happen when she has no firelighting materials" and "Willow can set things on fire with her mind alone" are equally valid interpretations of what's happening there.

And characters revive fully clothed. As you yourself put it: "this is a simplified, abstracted depiction of her compulsively setting fires with her lighter and it was better for gameplay to make it still happen when she has no firelighting materials" - to me this is the simpler and logical version (Occam's razor) as opposed to a supposed pyrokinesis we see nowhere else in lore, animations, quotes and the like.

Edited by x0-VERSUS-1y

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CameoAppearance    2575
2 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

And characters revive fully clothed.

You can suspend your disbelief for characters being brought back from the dead via magic, but not for their clothes respawning along with them?? The fact that their inventory items stay behind doesn't mean the resurrection magic can't, shouldn't or wouldn't recreate clothes at all, just that it's distinguishing between equippable clothes and spooled or attached-to-the-head-skin clothes.

Similarly, Walter's cinematic establishes that Woodie had supernatural powers that didn't appear to originate from the shadows before he was taken to the Constant, so it's not inconsistent with the worldbuilding if Willow did too. 

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x0-VERSUS-1y    6170
18 hours ago, CameoAppearance said:

You can suspend your disbelief for characters being brought back from the dead via magic, but not for their clothes respawning along with them?? The fact that their inventory items stay behind doesn't mean the resurrection magic can't, shouldn't or wouldn't recreate clothes at all, just that it's distinguishing between equippable clothes and spooled or attached-to-the-head-skin clothes.

Similarly, Walter's cinematic establishes that Woodie had supernatural powers that didn't appear to originate from the shadows before he was taken to the Constant, so it's not inconsistent with the worldbuilding if Willow did too. 

Main point was "simplicity of in-game depiction" in both cases. And the fact this (and lack of other examples to prove otherwise) was, as per Occam's razor principle, the most probable logical route.

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