Theukon-dos

Ranking characters on how much they need a re-work and explaining why.

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Viktor234    4814
7 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

That was part of its previous bad design, why would he need it? Also beaver idols require wood to craft so you indirectly still eat wood. It was absolutely pointless being a lumberjack and having to eat most of what you produce over time just to remain as human.

I didn't say that his previous design was good (actually, from some point of view it was a not that bad design), I said that since he got updated he does not have any real use for his Lucy anymore. For Example: In DS at least he could gather logs to make his Werebeaver form stronger. That feature has been removed in DST but besides that he even doesn't need to gather logs to create a boat because he can skip the ocean by turning himself into a Weregoose.

Where's the need of chopping trees as Woodie?

5 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

He doesn't have to make a better job, he's better at chopping the trees, being a fighter is not his thing.

Quote

Woodie couldn't ever even consider taking on toadstool solo without preparing a mountain of wood because of the atrocious log meter constantly ticking down and resulting in you transforming into a defenseless AND offenseless beaver mid-fight. Now Woodie can fight it head on and is considered the go-to character for taking down the giant frog.

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Theukon-dos    2808
32 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

her downside isnt strong if you are carefully, the same with her positive perks. This is a survival, not a rpg, so being firestarted means she is pyromaniac not a fire mage lvl 45. About burning loot... dude, just be careful

First of all, Her downside isn't strong even if you arn't careful. -30 insulation is laughable, and even when she didn't have full fire immunity would easily be circumvented by lighting a tree on fire.

Second, Even if she's not supposed to be a "Fire mage lvl 45", Her Pyromaniacy is still barely implemented into her current kit. She has exactly 3 perks related to fire

>Gains sanity while near fire (appropriate, but insignificant)

>Fueling fire is 50% more efficent (who cares?)

>Has a lighter (just a worse torch, isn't even infinite like it was in DS)

Even if DS Willow's kit wasn't particularly better. It was built entirely around her being a Pyromaniac, and she could do some fun stuff with Inventory burning

Spoiler

 

And as I said in the OP, Willow most definitly possesses Pyrokinesis, How else could you explain this scene from her short?

So in a way, Yes. She is supposed to be a fire mage. but instead she's just a summoner.

And third, Fair enough. Though it still makes things a bit trickier for her sense there's no tell for when something's close to death

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Mike23Ua    7090

Also Wilson needs a drastic rework- this is a SEQUEL at this point he has conquested through 5 randomly generated worlds, found and rescued Maxwell, becomes trapped on the Nightmare throne, And then later gets free’d by Charlie and she replaces him as the new ruler of the night.

there are a lot of lore loop holes here that I as a writer take it upon myself to explore, 

First of from a lore perspective I’m not understanding WHY if Charlie could just walts up to the Throne and free Wilson like that why she did not simply free Maxwell, the letters she writes to him shows that they have a clear bond.. so what was preventing her from rescuing him?

The second loop hole I find is that Wilson has sit on the same throne that Maxwell and Charlie have gained stranger new powers from.. Yet.. to quote a really old game I remember my Mom playing Silverload- “Nothing Happens.” 

I give huge kudos to those of you who can remember Silverload the game I don’t have to explain this but for everyone else the character you played as in the game only had one voice line for when you tried to perform any action that the game did not have programmed to do (such as examining a book shelf that has no purpose to further advance gameplay etc..)

“Nothing Happens...”

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1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

In my opinion Lucy is now priceless as a treeguard summoner

There's nothing quite as satisfying as setting a treeguard army on a deerclops.

I would like to see someone kill FW with treeguards sometime, he has aoe and you can make treeguards attack him. Only issue is planting cones in the atrium and spawning enough guards.

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Viktor234    4814
2 minutes ago, WoodieMain45684 said:

There's nothing quite as satisfying as setting a treeguard army on a deerclops.

I would like to see someone kill FW with treeguards sometime, he has aoe and you can make treeguards attack him. Only issue is planting cones in the atrium and spawning enough guards.

Can't Fuelweaver's Woven Shadows onehit Treeguards or so? At least when I tried using Tentacles against FW, the tentacles just got killed instantly once his Woven Shadows spawned, but I didn't try Treeguards yet.

Planting cones on the other hand shouldn't be an issue at all 

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gaymime    3099

@CarlZalph

fair enough though may i inquire about eu users? also may i ask you if you are only showing pc or if that is both pc and console?

 

 

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ShadowDuelist    6784
21 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Can't Fuelweaver's Woven Shadows onehit Treeguards or so? At least when I tried using Tentacles against FW, the tentacles just got killed instantly once his Woven Shadows spawned, but I didn't try Treeguards yet.

Killing the woven shadows without damaging the treeguards and getting their aggro towards you could be a problem. I guess if you can somehow kill the woven shadows and remove FW's shields fast enough, technically the treeguards would deal a big amount of damage. I haven't tried this yet (probably will run some tests in creative mode)

They will all probably die sooner or later though, and the battle will have to be finished in other "normal" ways.

There is a video of someone who did FW with tentacles, It's pretty messy and I probably wouldn't aim to do it often, but its still doable I guess.

Spoiler

 


 

Edited by ShadowDuelist
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33 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Killing the woven shadows without damaging the treeguards and getting their aggro towards you could be a problem. I guess if you can somehow kill the woven shadows and remove FW's shields fast enough, technically the treeguards would deal a big amount of damage. I haven't tried this yet (probably will run some tests in creative mode)

What if you have enough treeguards to out-damage the heal? Each shadow restores 400 hp, treeguards do around 150ish damage to FW (It does around this much if their target isn't a player). What if you only focused a few with something like a boomerang or darts or melee and let the treeguards simply cancel out the healing for the others?

Edited by WoodieMain45684
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ShadowDuelist    6784
13 minutes ago, WoodieMain45684 said:

What if you have enough treeguards to out-damage the heal? Each shadow restores 400 hp, treeguards do around 150ish damage to FW (It does around this much if their target isn't a player). What if you only focused a few with something like a boomerang or darts or melee and let the treeguards simply cancel out the healing for the others?

I guess its a matter of trying it out and see how it goes :) 

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Scrimbles    3434

Okay but how can I upvote a post multiple times?

 

Basically on board with everything in the post, but I just want to add one thing about Maxwell.

DS Max could summon shadows that can help him accomplish any task, without turning Max into an afk to win character, and by splitting his shadows into super specific roles, he basically has no reason to craft the fighters, while in his classic form you couls recycle the same shadows you used to work to fight instead, and his shadows felt like a more risk/reward investment.

 

Also, as much as I like Wicker, she deserves a complete overhaul, her books are just random assortments of magical abilities that she doeant rely on. Her downsides are practically meaningless, and she doesnt have a core sort of theme or mechanic that ties her together.

 

Frankly, I just play her for her personality and the convenience of her tier 1 science.

I'f she actively had to research and study various things to properly survive I think that could be a fun and unique direction to take.

Like, if she was so obsessed with knowledge that she had to research carrots before actually being able to eat them, or could get more use out carrots after studying. Silly, and nonsensical, but I feel like it xould be a fun idea id handled correctly.

 

Woodie is my favorite character and DS main, and I dont think any of his DST incarnations have worked properly. Instead of trying to fix him, Klei kinda just went a conpletely different direction, and basically created a new character. I, personally, hate him now.

 

[Ok mod talk from here on out, don't @me I gave you a warning!]

I seriously try not to do this, but since theukon-dos is in our Discord, id like to point out that a lot of the changes he suggested are in Uncompromising Mode, Warly, Wendy, Willow, Wortox, and Wormwood all got pretty much every change Theukon-dos suggested.

Wendy doesnt have a nuts damage boost from Abby, Warly gets bonus stats from unique foods but has an increased food memory timer, Wortox no longer gets souls from most small creatures (will be replaced by small/corrupted souls in the future), and Wormwood got his old burning downside + reworks to the compost wrap 1

Wicker got some important nerfs and changes, and soon Maxwell will be able to summon his classic shadows as a toggleable option.

 

Ill probably release all my character changes as a seperate mod in the future.

Edited by Ogrecakes
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Mysterious box    310

I agree wurt needs a big refresh she's are character whose perk is the most resource and time consuming with only a small payout

The king's rewards are mostly useless and very time consuming to obtain due to fish not stacking, merms despite requiring requiring alot more setup and maintenance than other mobs are only above average rather than the best despite being wurt's main selling point. Properly using the king requires you keep him fed meaning on top of trying to keep track of your followers loyalty you also time gated by the king in your travels.

Wurt's teamplay aspect is extremely lacking as her making progress with her village hurts a server more than helping as the only way to interact with merms is to be wurt or have her disguise which doesn't last long leading to wurt leading a solo life or never going far from home. Wurt offers mobs players can use but but the only real payout for them is faster resource farming but with all the time and resources that go into making a merm village maxwell and woodie would have long since gathered wood, rocks and other things.

Don't get me wrong tho I love wurt and she is a functional character I just feel like she requires far too much busy work for too little payout.

There are even players who go out of their way to destory merm homes to slow down her progress.

Spoiler

...I also kind wish merms could swim and push the boat to move it fast since since hounds are allowed to swim...

 

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Behold...

THE TOP 3 MOST NEEDED REWORKS AND WHY

#1 - Webber

He feels to old, especially with all the updated characters coming to the game.

#2 - Wickerbottom 

She Needs to feel more like an old lady. Nerf her health. Give her a cool playstyle that makes her avoid labor.

#3 - WX - 78

Make him more artificial.

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12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

Woodie- Wendy and Winona both have unique craftable structures in the form of Machines & Sisturn.. Woodie only has a few eatable totems.. Meh- I want a Totem similar to the Pig Torch Totems, Something that I can go to and offer my Idol to to Trigger my Transformation.

(Yes Woodie players.. this means you’ll have to stop being lazy and craft a totem structure to sacrifice to your idol in order to transform, Should be EASY to code into the game since in my head I picture Carrat Shrine here...)
 

I just nerfed Woodie with my idea.. BUT I would buff his curse forms because of this new totem offer mechanic, allowing beaver form to swing his tail with a knock back attack, and to “slowly” swim through water picking up materials that Goose form can not. Moose form would still be the go to fighting formation.. 

But his Full Moon curse- I would allow Woodie to craft a jewelry item at his totem similar to the pig king crown lore... that prevents random transformations from happening.

Yes, please let the beaver swim, c'mon. I like the idea of a totem pole buffing him similar to the Sisturn helping Abby. It could also be a fire source if lit, so it supplies the other players with light. All of the other rework items are partially useful to other characters.

The totems should still be consumable, but offering them would tune out that stupid -20 health penalty. Sanity loss should get way more intense to compensate. (The health penalty of consuming a straight totem should be increased.)

Also, yeah, syrup taps would be good. Could work in place of honey, and could only be harvested in winter. That way, it makes up for honey you miss out on.

Edited by ExtollerOfTrolls

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x0-VERSUS-1y    5895

As a nomad Willow-main (even before her rework) I have to disagree with OP's assertion. I believe she is in a good place atm as a bundle of attributes. I wouldn't mind if inventory burning would be added yet I can do without it - and am sure if added a lot of other people would start crying "omg Willow so op ez pz"... like they do so with current Wendy. On the other hand, if her insanity DS con would be reintroduced, she would be shunned exponentially and branded griefer from get-go on sole premise she would burn everything if going insane (think what happens now with players who's character goes <75% sanity on other people' boats) - when Willow still had this con I myself kicked a friend from my server after she burned my base for the 3rd time; one can imagine what would happen in pubs.

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Theukon-dos    2808
51 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

As a nomad Willow-main (even before her rework) I have to disagree with OP's assertion. I believe she is in a good place atm as a bundle of attributes. I wouldn't mind if inventory burning would be added yet I can do without it - and am sure if added a lot of other people would start crying "omg Willow so op ez pz"... like they do so with current Wendy. On the other hand, if her insanity DS con would be reintroduced, she would be shunned exponentially and branded griefer from get-go on sole premise she would burn everything if going insane (think what happens now with players who's character goes <75% sanity on other people' boats) - when Willow still had this con I myself kicked a friend from my server after she burned my base for the 3rd time; one can imagine what would happen in pubs.

I never said that Willow wasn't good, I said that It didn't do a good job of making her Willow. She's "The Fire Starter", she's a pyromaniac, Yet her re-work cared more about her after-thought bear than it did about fire.

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Mysterious box    310
12 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

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Warly got tons of penalties (He got nerfed hard when they moved him from DS to DST), no personal abilities and OP shareable abilities, making him the best Pick-and-Swap character ingame. Klei didn't design him as a cook who relies on his dishes, but as an enchanter instead.

If I'm being honest I feel like the real issue is people want Warly's downsides removed or atleast that's the idea i get when I see posts saying he needs reworked due to pick and swap. His crockpot, backpack, and dishes are his personal power the dishes themselves offering a alot of variety and usefulness.

Also the pick and swap arguement is getting old even more so since you could do the same with any character and to get the desired results i.e. character swap to wicker read books or Wolfgang bosses and swap back but even then if your willing to go that far you could even use console commands. Enabling a group to benefit from your perk should be celebrated in a cooperative multiplayer game but for some reason it's hated.

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Viktor234    4814
1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

If I'm being honest I feel like the real issue is people want Warly's downsides removed or atleast that's the idea i get when I see posts saying he needs reworked due to pick and swap. His crockpot, backpack, and dishes are his personal power the dishes themselves offering a alot of variety and usefulness.

Other than his repeated meal downside which keeps new players away from playing as Warly, feels completly unnecessary and breaks his whole cooking style (i.e. it keeps him away from relying on dishes and forces him to rely more on Tents or Healing Salve, just like Wormwood), I also dislike his whole DST design.

His backpack got nerfed hard and is only 25% as strong as his SW version, it's useless for him right now.

He's the 2nd least picked non-DLC character after Wes which is a sign that Warly is underpowered or bad designed. The only things that keep him alive are his Volt Goat Chaud-Froid, the only dish players want from Warly as it gives everyone an insane amount of damage, and his seasonings, which turn him into a Jack of all trades but don't affect the dish at all.

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Zeklo    18646
36 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Also the pick and swap arguement is getting old even more so since you could do the same with any character and to get the desired results i.e. character swap to wicker read books or Wolfgang bosses and swap back but even then if your willing to go that far you could even use console commands. 

This is a poor example.
With Warly all you have to do is stock up resources as a character of your choice, swap to Warly to make the food, and then swap back. Now you can reap the rewards as any character for some time so long as you stocked up enough.

Being Wickerbottom is a still requirement for reaping the rewards of her perk—unless you're playing Maxwell, but that's a single exception. I can't just "take" Wolfgang's strength either. If I want to reap the rewards of his character I have to actually play as him during the fight.

Sure you could technically spam swap if you don't value your resources whatsoever, but the point is Warly's perk requires minimal back & forth, and someone like Winona requires none once the desired amount of structures are placed.

 

Wigfrid is a great example of a character with a neat team-oriented perk while not becoming a pick and swap. Her gear is nice, but they aren't unique in the sense that they provide something irreplaceable (there are other means of obtaining the same armor level, or higher), yet prove handy while a Wigfrid is present. On top of that, Wigfrid has her vampirism perk which is specific to her, stays relevant, and can't be passed on. She is an ideal.

Edited by Zeklo
spacing
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Jrramon_GOLD    682

I think Wx-78 should get a rework first. Wx-78 has a lot of potential of possibly being a robot transformer where he can transform into different forms. I would also like to see a skill tree for wx-78 for his rework. Also wx-78 is a selfish charter which means hes very take and very little give.

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Mike23Ua    7090
3 hours ago, Zeklo said:

Wigfrid is a great example of a character with a neat team-oriented perk while not becoming a pick and swap. Her gear is nice, but they aren't unique in the sense that they provide something irreplaceable (there are other means of obtaining the same armor level, or higher), yet prove handy while a Wigfrid is present. On top of that, Wigfrid has her vampirism perk which is specific to her, stays relevant, and can't be passed on.
She is an ideal.

Friendly reminder: Wigfrid is NOT a real Viking Warrior, she’s only a stage actress who got so caught up into the role of being a Viking Warrior, she lost herself in it.

Its like if Gal Gadot or Jason Momoa suddenly thought they were the REAL Wonder Woman and Aquaman.. they’re not Meta-Human in real life... but they would THINK they were.

And Klei has to cover that in the lore description of Wigfrids Rework or I’m never going to be satisfied with it- Seriously like what did she do??? Go to a Ghost Museum somewhere and BUY a Real Haunted Viking Helmet & Spear from out of a Display case and the Helm and Spear are what gives her her actual powers to kill things and “Vampire Effect” from them? 

(Similar to how Kitana in Suicide Squad’s sword consumes the souls of enemies she kills with her sword.)
 

It reminds me of the Powerpuff girls episode where Princess was told she would never be a REAL Powerpuff girl, so she got her rich daddy to get her some gear to Pretend she was a real Powerpuff girl, but in the end- Gear that lets you pretend your a Powerpuff does not make you a real Powerpuff..

Just like how when things got rough for Batman in the JL movies Wonder Woman and Superman had to step in & be his savior because they are both Actual Metahumans- Batman is just a rich dude with a lot of toys to play super hero.

This is coming from the mouth of probably the #1 Batman fan by the way... so yeah :) 

Now maybe you understand why Wigfrid feels totally broken to me.

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