Gouflax

Crude oil to natural gas boiler (without space elements)

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Lifegrow    1710

Solid little build bud - have you average figures on actual throughput?

i.e. the minipump/sour gas pumps bottleneck the build to no more than 1kg/s, but is it performing less than that already ?

Personally I like to also circulate the sulfur on rails and with you using the mini pump, you're safe to use the liquid methane for additional cooling, as it helps squeeze out a bigger output.

 

Edited by Lifegrow
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OxCD    732

Well there's some points that are itching me.

- You're limiting max sour gas output by pumping it from cooking room to cooling room. That makes 1kg/s output, which is 666g/s max NG output. Same for the mini-liquid pump. Quite limitating considering the process potential. (and if we consider stand alone pump into methane room, the max is reduced to 500g/s)

- I don't know by how much you're pre-heating your crude oil before to send it into the second tank, but it seems you cannot preheat it that much since you have to pump it again (so max is steel, 275°C overheating). You have a gap between 270°C approx & 400°C.

- You better would be sure bottom thermo-regulators will not overheat. The incoming methane will not absorb back a lot of heat, so any excess will have to travel from the bottom to the top to reach the turbine.

- As said by Lifegrow, you're loosing cooling potential by not using the sulfur. Debris like this (just standing on a tile) will barely not absorb any heat.

- Considering the 500g/s max NG, that makes 4444W/s max. If you add AT Watts (petroleum is one of the worst "standard" liquid for W/kDTU), thermo-regulators Watts, extra liquid pump and gas pumps, that makes a pretty heavy setup for not that much watts. (you also have to consider the magma chamber, that will need some tuning and a volcano to avoid complete heat consumption, or igneous rock stopper)

BTW there's some neat idea into this build. And you're tickling with really hard challenge : having a oil to NG setup with good output without space material and without beeing oversized.

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ghkbrew    147

Good job you've reached the ONI meta-game of building and optimizing enormous contraptions to produce way more power than you'll ever need :)

But since you're asking for advice: 

3 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Personally I like to also circulate the sulfur on rails and with you using the mini pump, you're safe to use the liquid methane for additional cooling, as it helps squeeze out a bigger output.

Do both of these things.  Counterflow heat exchangers are how you make this sort of machine efficient.  Ideally sour gas will exit the heating tower at the same temperature as the oil goes in (well a little hotter due to differences in SHC) with only the incoming oil to do the cooling. The same for the cooling tower. You want natural gas and sulfur coming out at nearly the same temperature the sour gas goes in.  Every DTU you exchange is one less you'll have to draw from magma or remove with thermo regulators.  You're doing it some with the oil/sour gas flow, but not at all with the sour gas/natural gas flow.

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Nebbie    377

That's not as bulky as I was expecting, but only 4kW is a little on the low side, especially for something that needs a heat source anyways, since you could just slap 5 steam turbines on the magma a lot easier. I'm interested to see what a more optimized form of it looks like.

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0xFADE    547

Very nice.  I remember back before sour gas and steel making methane from oil with just gold amalgam pumps.  Dark times.

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Gouflax    17

Here more data on the output : a little more than 500g/s of NG, enough to supply a 6th generator at 60%.
The mini-pump is not working at 100%, so it's difficult to mesure the average output.
The crude oil at the start heat from 90°C to 200°C.

In fact, having 5 generators working at 100% was a first objective, but it's clearly not optimised.

Using sulfure and methane as coolant is a very good idea. Thank you :)

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beowulf2010    660
On 7/30/2020 at 3:26 AM, Gouflax said:

2 - In another chamber, I pump the sour gas and cool it with 1 thermo-aquatuner (with petroleum as coolant). The sour gas goes from 90°C to -50°C.

Ouch. The "waste" of power makes my soul hurt. Swap the coolant out for at least Naphtha (25% better heat capacity and capable for going 10C cooler) or sacrifice 20 degrees and go with polluted water for a near 200% power efficiency improvement... 

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Gouflax    17

Hi,

I rebuilt my setup for industrial production. I called it "The shame of the asteroïd". :cool2:

111.thumb.jpg.2d6c9e6dafb91fd32dccf69ad912c873.jpg

The crude oil start to capture the heat of the sour gas in the chamber N°1 (90°C to 320°C). The debit is restricted at 3333g.
Liquid methane and sulfur is used to cool the sour gas before it get pumped.
At the top of the first chamber, the sour gas is at 90°C.
The four doors are here to have a better pressure management in the room.

The sour gas is pumped and is cool by 2 thermo-aquatuner (with naphtha) in the chamber N°2.
The top of this chamber is cooled with methane and sulfur, and have a lock security to help the 2 thermo-aquatuner.
At the top of the second chamber, the sour gas is at -50°C.
The gas shutoffs are use to limit the amout of gas in the pipes at 500g. Without them, there would be too much gas and the heat would win the fight agains't cold.

In the final chamber, the sour gas is eject at a pressure of 17.000 kg, and transform in methane at the bottom of the room.
For this chamber, you need 7 thermo-regulator (with hydrogene).

The setup use 3100 kJ and generate 7500 kJ per cycle.

It produce enough NG for 14/15 generators, and theoretically produce enough water for one oil well, and could work in closed circle (with maybe extra oil sometimes).

Despite all this, it has a lot a default :
- Before having methane and sulfur in the pipes, it must be start very slow, or the oil will break the pipes because of the heat.
- It has a massive inertia, and need a lot of power just to start it. :lol:
- Sometimes, pipes with methane break (I don't know why, there is less than 1000g in it).
- The output of the setup is inconstant.
- It consume a lot of heat.
- It's very complex to build (no ****, sherlock ?)

My opinion : it's less difficult to send a rocket in space. :lol:


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Edited by Gouflax
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SamLogan    974

I feel you don't expose enough your crude oil and your methane to the heat / cooling exchanger. See this master piece to improve your setup even if it's already a good job. :)

 

 

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OxCD    732

It's getting interesting.

How hot is your sulfur out ? You might think about using it as closed loop, where you want it to cool the SG. And to use a rail thermo sensor to make it leaving the loop when not cold enough. And also only sweeping it when there's enough kg to make a full 20kg rail packet (pressure plates below the mini-pump and automation with the sweeper ?). All this little things should help suflur efficiency.

Is your crude oil really hitting 320°C while in radiant pipes ? You might think about an auxiliary thermal space that you're keeping around 398°C for example (using doors heat transfer capability) and having the oil going through. Using an alternative heat exchange area that has its own heat management could really help to take the most from crude oil pre-heating. That's the most important exchange into the process I think, bringing so much heat (magma) consumption savings.

Don't worry about inertia, that's really common to oil to NG setup. And that's a little cost to amortize for so much reward.

It's strange for your methane piping. You may think about having a deeper look. This kind of fail kinda ruin the setup reliability.

BTW still a good job. :)

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Gouflax    17

The sulfut at the end is at -15°C. If a do another loop in the chamber, it turn into liquid in the boiler.

I think i will make other intermediates chambers, with thermo-aquatuner and polluted water, and use other gas between the naphtha and hydrogene chamber.

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Gouflax    17

Third time lucky (I hope).

It's way bigger than the 2nd one, but it saves a lot of heat, and allow to have enough fuel for 20 generators. I called it "The plumber nightmare".

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At the start, the crude oil enter the boiler with 5 liquid valves at a debit of 666,6 g/s. (it's 3333g/s divised by 5, and not a satanist purpose :devilish:)
It enter at 90°C, and exit the pipes at 470°C.
There is 3 chamber with automated doors to easely manage the pressure in the top room, and protect the pumps.

The sour gas get out of the boiler at 110°C, and enter the cooling rooms.
Instead of 1 coolant in thermo-aquatuners, i use 3.

Bottom : Polluted water
Middle : Naphtha
Top : Ethanol

Between each of thermo-aquatuner chamber, i use sulfur and methane to create an intermediate cold room.
At the end, the methane comes out at 60°C, and the sulfur at 90°C.

The setup use 2800kJ and generate 8600kJ per cycle.

Yet, there is still some problems :

- The debit of crude oil in entry is to adjust. The total debit is at 3333g/s, but the pressure in the bottom room of the boiler slowly increase, and at a moment, the liquid vent block and the pipes break.
(It also means the setup requires less than 3333g/s of crude oil to work – Yeah !)


- In the final cold room, liquid pipes connected with the mini-pump break sometimes (the reason of break is"too hot"). I still don't understand. If someone has a explanation, you'll make a man happy.


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Gouflax    17

I don't know if it was already done before, but there is a data table on the crude oil to gas capacity on each configuration.
It's only theorical, of course.

Crude oil INPUT (g) Sour gas INPUT (g) Gas pump Natural methane OUTPUT (67%) Mini liquid pump Generators
500 500 1 335 1 3,7
1000 1000 2 670 1 7,4
1500 1500 3 1005 2 11,2
2000 2000 4 1340 2 14,9
2500 2500 5 1675 2 18,6
3000 3000 6 2010 3 22,3
3500 3500 7 2345 3 26,1
4000 4000 8 2680 3 29,8
4500 4500 9 3015 4 33,5
5000 5000 10 3350 4 37,2


I rebuilt the setup on minimal capacity. It use "only" 1 thermo-aquatuner (with ethanol) and 3 thermo-regulators (with hydrogen).

It use the same concept as before, by using methane and sulfur to cool the sour gas.

Some datas :
Crude oil:
- INPUT : 550g/s (a little more than 500g to increase the pressure in the pump chamber).
- Temp : 90°C to 470°C


Power generate : 1825 kJ
Power used : 900 kJ

Generators powered : 3.6 / 3.7


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I still have one problem : that goddamn methane pipe still break  :(

I made some tests
, it's always the first radiant pipe that break (there is always less than 1000g of methane in the pipes).
B1.thumb.jpg.556755c82d8c5f212bf3c6b65a05f2f0.jpgB2.thumb.jpg.fabf1587cb6574040066b5e2058dd32d.jpg

 

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Lifegrow    1710

@Gouflax I preferred your attempts before you started messing around with the dumbass 1kg packet exploit - you were actually creating something interesting that everyone could use, regardless of their personal moral stance towards bugs ;) 

As soon as you start listening to clowns that recommend you use exploits to "fix" your build, all creativity/originality/individualism goes out of the window. Just my 2cents obviously, but i'd suggest you keep up with the tinkering bud :encouragement:

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OxCD    732
13 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

@Gouflax I preferred your attempts before you started messing around with the dumbass 1kg packet exploit - you were actually creating something interesting that everyone could use, regardless of their personal moral stance towards bugs ;) 

As soon as you start listening to clowns that recommend you use exploits to "fix" your build, all creativity/originality/individualism goes out of the window. Just my 2cents obviously, but i'd suggest you keep up with the tinkering bud :encouragement:

While I agree with you on the global message you're bringing, I don't remember seeing here someone recommending to (ab)use exploit/glitch/bug/etc...

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Gouflax    17

@Lifegrow
I have the same interrogation of OxCD about bug or glitch. I though the 1Kg packet was a game mecanic, not a glitch. My bad :???:

Edited by Gouflax

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OxCD    732
17 minutes ago, Gouflax said:

@Lifegrow
I have the same interrogation of OxCD about bug or glitch. I though the 1Kg packet was a game mecanic, not a glitch. My bad :???:

Do as you wish. There's no list telling anyone that This is bug and not a glitch, This is a glitch and not an exploit, This is an exploit and not a glitch, etc...

Lifegrow just brought you a point of view, which was mainly I think : follow your own guidelines.

Also, for your information, the 1kg isn't a bug/glitch. It's a game mechanism. It has been discussed live by devs, and they fully take this on.

And remember also, nothing prevents you to end up with 2 (or more) versions of your setup. One using some guidelines, and others using others guidelines.

Back to your setup, it's seems there's something going wrong on the 1kg packets, and that's looking "buggy", if I may tell.

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Gouflax    17
36 minutes ago, OxCD said:

Also, for your information, the 1kg isn't a bug/glitch. It's a game mechanism. It has been discussed live by devs, and they fully take this on.

Thank you for the information :)

Lifegrow said something right about having a personnal guideline. He's also right about "a setup everyone could use". It's my purpose from the start (but more important, i'm doing it for the challenge :mrgreen:).

It gaves me some ideas to use the cold of the methane and the heat of the sour gas without the 1kg packet. I hope it will work.

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Lifegrow    1710
1 hour ago, OxCD said:

Also, for your information, the 1kg isn't a bug/glitch. It's a game mechanism. It has been discussed live by devs, and they fully take this on.

Just for full clarity now, that is utter nonsense. Whoever told you that was misinformed. Cite your source though, i'm intrigued.

  

2 hours ago, OxCD said:

While I agree with you on the global message you're bringing, I don't remember seeing here someone recommending to (ab)use exploit/glitch/bug/etc...

See samlogans post above, offering neotucks build which is entirely based off the 1kg packet mechanic, and ultimately what shifted OPs build towards using the 1kg mechanic.

 

Edited by Lifegrow

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OxCD    732
29 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Just for full clarity now, that is utter nonsense. Whoever told you that was misinformed. Cite your source though, i'm intrigued.

See samlogans post above, offering neotucks build which is entirely based off the 1kg packet mechanic, and ultimately what shifted OPs build towards using the 1kg mechanic.

Ok now I get your arguments.

You may be not going to love it, but the 10% packet size which doesn't change in state has been approached during a live stream from Klei, some hours of playing ONI and answering live community questions. The question has been asked, and it has been answered by them. The mecanism was wanted, and so they didn't have any plan to remove it.

The subject has been discussed here on the forum during some days after the stream.

Unfortunately I do not have the link, as I don't even know how to replay any Klei stream. And I have completely no idea when it was, as it's some months old, maybe even a year. But I'm sure you're as good as me on searching on the internet :) or maybe someone else will have kept the link for further use !

Edited by OxCD

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Lifegrow    1710
5 hours ago, OxCD said:

You may be not going to love it, but the 10% packet size which doesn't change in state has been approached during a live stream from Klei, some hours of playing ONI and answering live community questions. The question has been asked, and it has been answered by them. The mecanism was wanted, and so they didn't have any plan to remove it.

Again, it's utter nonsense. Regularly we've posed questions to the devs on twitch, and regularly they get answered by someone who *thinks* they know the answer, and respond with any old answer to appease twitch chat. 9 times out of 10 it's wrong, misleading or *subject to change*.

Just like when we were told "nobody knows how voids were added to the game" or "morbs will totally be ranch-able in the future" or "yeah, we've totally fixed (insert any ancient bug here)".These are just farcical things that get fed to twitch chat by people who are already out of their comfort zone.

Basing your facts off a vod that you can't find, from a stream you don't remember, at a time you can't recall is not exactly citing your source.

5 hours ago, OxCD said:

The subject has been discussed here on the forum during some days after the stream.

I'm aware, doesn't change a thing. If enough people told you the earth was made of biscuit, would you believe them?

Edited by Lifegrow

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