Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.

Squirrel12

Are Overcomplicated Characters the Norm Now?

Recommended Posts

Squirrel12    487

So after seeing the discussions on Walter, I thought it would be healthy to discuss this. How complicated should a character be? In the old days, new characters were unique, but also kept simple. Now, it feels like every new characters needs to have their own Crafting Menu to stand out. 

Walter almost sounds like he's a mod character, there's so many different perks he has that are loosely connected with each other, with some feeling really tacked on (the dog being the prime example). It almost feels like Walter could have been two different characters, a range character and a tamer/character with a pet. 

We're also seeing this a lot with the reworks. It seems to be taking a lot of the original characters and making them more "complex" so that they can keep up with the complexity of these new characters. Not sure if this is a bad or a good thing. 

What do you think? Is Walter too complicated or overstuffed with perks?  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ArubaroBeefalo    3498

i think its to make them more interesting to play that having wilsons with different numbers like the old willow (do you want things burning when low sanity?) or wx that the only fun thing is to be overload. Dont starve needs to compite against other "freak" games like mobas and rpgs where each character has skills and magics  (check old topics where some forum users claim for having a more complex fight system like the forge (idea that i dont like))

i dont mind having good amount of perks if this comes with a equilibrium of downsides (i dont think winsons with steroids are interesting)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sweaper    691

A good thing. You can still play more or less vanilla with most of the reworked characters if you desire so.

14 minutes ago, Deprecious said:

She losses 10 hunger every time she crafts something if she didn't craft anything in the last two minutes or so.. why ? what's the point ?

It's 5, barely game breaking. And it's not hard to keep hunger in check with any character so you barely will see her lower crafting speed unless when playing poorly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Scrimbles    3267

I just want characters to have more direction, Walter and Wurt seem to lack a consistent theme and are just a random assortment of ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sweaper    691
5 minutes ago, Deprecious said:

redundant

Playing poorly (aka new/casual player), slower crafting, spider attacking and cancelling your torch crafting, death.

Not redundant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Despair    175
33 minutes ago, Ogrecakes said:

I just want characters to have more direction, Walter and Wurt seem to lack a consistent theme and are just a random assortment of ideas.

This.

I would say that all new content seems unfocused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I don't like how Klei is making new characters very complex. I liked how it used to be. 3 upsides and 2 downsides or something like that. Now you need to have like 20 upsides and 6 downsides. It makes it feel like its a mod.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tapirus    2058
34 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

It's 5, barely game breaking. And it's not hard to keep hunger in check with any character so you barely will see her lower crafting speed unless when playing poorly.

Actually was -5 Hunger for every crafting (5 Ropes = -25 Hunger) and many people complained about it, Klei changed that (adding the "2 minutes of free crafting" thing) in the end.

https://reddit.com/r/dontstarve/comments/az9es2/opinions_on_winona_rework/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Booklover    402

I agree with @Ogrecakes in that a character should have a theme or direction.

While the recent characters do have a theme, starting from Wurt, the "extra" perks start to feel more like easter eggs or gimmicks from lore except it's not really easter eggs as they just tell you straight from the update. From something to holding a live fish longer and for sanity, to not getting affected by wetness much, all of these feel like easter eggs or gimmicks that could be implemented but secretly so us players can have the luxury of finding them and getting excited.

A good example could be Willow's lighter. It gives sanity to Willow because of her "pyromania" perk but it's not explicitly shown. We have to experiment and play around with Willow to find out about this "easter egg" or "gimmick" and imo it makes it more fun. It feels as though we are slowly exploring Willow's perks and learning more whereas Wurt just has most of her easter eggs thrown at you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    6428

I don’t think in a game built mostly on PC where people datamine every little detail about an update before that update is even out that there can ever truly BE any Easter Eggs..

Look at the people playing on Consoles- How many of those poor suckers even know Lunar Island exists?! Then there’s Pearls Hermit House- I actually had to resort to the DST Wiki pages just to figure out what the ingredients needed in upgrading her hermit house were because the game doesn’t tell you they just give you a tiny little picture and (unless your on PC or Stalking Wikipedia..) You just have to GUESS at WTF that thing in that Tiny Picture box is.

To Be Honest- It’s Slightly frustrating.. I miss the old days of hidden Easter eggs that were cleverly tucked away and took Yeeeeaaaarrrrss before anyone ever found- Stuff like the hidden Ghost Castles in Mario, Sadly in this day and age content like that CANT exist due to the internet.. but I gotta admit it was fun discovering something like that on your own for the first time ever-

I actually Beat an old X-men game on the Sega console by doing something almost NO ONE would’ve ever thought to do- Reseting their actual console at a very specific point in the game in order to progress to the next level.

I miss crap like THAT.

 

As far as how the Characters play- They each have their own theme going but some of you refuse to see it, Wendy for example is currently the only character in the entire game who spends a good bit of her time playing with her own personal divining rod to find lost stuffs.

If any Other character were to get this “quest to find lost stuffs feature using a Divining Rod like mechanic” I will go ahead and roughly guess Woodlegs but at Sea.. assuming he ever gets added to the game.

Wurt also happens to be idk I guess sort of the Wonder Woman or Aquaman of DST? Meaning... she’s the leader of a massive personal Army.  You could Argue she’s like Webber.. but Ehh not really- I’ll reserve that judgement until AFTER Webber’s Rework.

There are small things here and there that an experienced player is going to shrug off as meaningless, where as to someone actually new to the game will see as a cool feature- Again lets look at Wurt.

Noobs don’t know how to spot Tentacles in a swamp they just get sudden Ambushed by them.. but when playing as Wurt, not only does she get a bright white circle to see where theyre spawning from, but she also moves faster while walking on Swamp turf allowing her to more easily move out of the way of them.

 

Ahem.. Again features the experts will heavily overlook, but I Notice them- Because I still Have those noob friends who still die endlessly just trying to learn how to play the game. 
 

And I’m willing to bet you guys Money that Walter will be an easy pick for my noob friends to better get the hang of the game. If for NO other reason but “Permanent Chest that follows you around and can be ridin”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mysterious box    300

I'm honestly confused about people saying Walter's perks don't match his theme just because all them don't scream scout they make sense if you think about it. He gains sanity from trees due to being a more outdoorsman....kid which being a scout likely encouraged which also may have lead to his fondness of slingshots. Being a scout he'd be very familiar camping, cooking over a fire, and telling stories even his sanity perk could likely be explained by this that he's actually really frightened by the situation he finds himself in by copes with it by pretending he's on a scout trip and getting hurt shatters that bubble.

Basically what I'm trying to say is to me his perks say he is a kid who is a scout not a scout who happens to be a kid if that makes sense.

 

I'm actually hard pressed to find a perk that doesn't fit Wurt thematically I think people are confusing practicality with theme now that I think about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lumberlocke    1047

Yeah, personally, I believe all the perks make sense for Walter. I believe the characters are becoming "overcomplicated" to provide more fun in a multiplayer setting. If you liked the original simplistic character traits, the original Don't Starve is always available. :wilson_curious:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SaltyWarly    18

This may be uncommon opinion, but I do enjoy reworks so far. Actually, I'd like to see more unique mechanics on characters. Let's say Wolfgang for example. I like his character design, he is the most powerful character in whole game but then comes the reason I refuse to play him. He is boring. He is like Wilson with better numbers. Faster, higher stats and more damage without downsides. So, been stuck on Warly since SW. His gameplay is so different that it's the only reason to play him. Even I dislike his character design (thin chefs are suspicious) and he is weaker than Wolfgang.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Frashaw27    1195
12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wurt also happens to be idk I guess sort of the Wonder Woman or Aquaman of DST?

I think by the idea that you need to guess what their theme is validates the idea that they don't really have one. While I disagree that Walter and other reworked characters lack a theme to thier character, I feel that they really botched Wurt in terms of themeing with perks that do relate to her character, but are not really connected to each other. For example, both tentacle spotting and fish preservation make sense for Wurts character, but they don't relate to each other at all and rely on the thin thread that is Wurt to connect them. I do feel like they made a good enough character, but I also feel that they took the characters species first and slapped on perks that vaugly relate to Wurt. 

 

As a whole, I like complex character. It adds distinction, variety, and new playstyles that really bring out each characters traits to their fullest to put out on display how they can help the team or themselves. What I want each character to be like is to be surfacely simple but mechanically complex. Simple mechanics to grasp but have a lot interactions that the player has to search out. A example that is easy enough is Woodies refresh. It added a change that was simple yo grasp, that he has 3 different forms that all specialize in a area of the game, and made it complex enough so that they had more uses if you saught after them like Goose allowing for easier ruins escapes with the unlimited night vision and maintaining a decent speed boost even with the Piggy Back for example, the simple mechanics compiling together a number of complex and varied uses is what I want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    6428
38 minutes ago, Lumberlocke said:

Yeah, personally, I believe all the perks make sense for Walter. I believe the characters are becoming "overcomplicated" to provide more fun in a multiplayer setting. If you liked the original simplistic character traits, the original Don't Starve is always available. :wilson_curious:

 

this, someone the other day said if they could be a Dev they would want to have the power of being “The great Eraser” which simply wipes everything you’ve learned about the game and start as if it were you first time ever playing.

I personally found this to be probably the best response out of all the comments in that entire thread, why? Because just for a second picture yourself as that noob again, remember the learning curve you went through, all your fun experiences out of trail and error.. if you look at all the Reworked or DLC Characters releases so far they ALL Maybe even inadvertently teaches a noob SOMETHING.

For example- Playing Wurt will teach them how to spot Swamp Tentacles, and allows them to actually explore the swamp biome without being hunted down and murdered by Merms.

Playing as Wendy will teach them the importance behind collecting Flower petals and putting them into Sisturn for free Sanity.

Meanwhile Willow will inadvertently teach them the importance behind becoming insane and farming nightmare fuel or having a light source to survive nightfall.

They EACH teach a noob player SOMETHING.

It also happens to be because of Willows Examination quote for Bee Queens Hive that I actually even learned HOW to summon her.

You guys have to completely ditch the expert player mindset and look at these characters as if you just started the game Yesterday- They each teach you SOMETHING- Wormwood, The importance of health management less reliant on foods.

 Woodie will inadvertently teach them the importance behind resource gathering as well as that first full moon and learning how to not panic during full in Starvation Status.

WALTER will be no different, Walter will give them their own Chester and Personal Beefalo and teach them the importance behind them (As well as probably using ranged weapons period..) and then when they’re NOT playing as Walter They will learn how to find Chester or Hutch or will hopefully even attempt to TAME A BEEFALO when they can’t rely on Woby.

I mean this image pretty much speaks for itself.. most sadly :( 

image.thumb.jpg.e954e7949e5c6ab2570d3d84e773aefb.jpg

LESS people on Xbox have Tamed a Beefalo then they have killed Dragonfly or Ancient Guardian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ShadowDuelist    6535

I disagree, the fact that a character is complex means there is more room of things to explore about said character. I don't think its bad at all.
Woodie is now a super complex character, with a ton of things to consider before using his tranformations, and yet it's super fun to play as, and can be super helpful in a multiplayer enviroment.

I think the problem with Winona specifically (and can be sort of related to Wurt as well) is that its a super grindy character that in the end make you feel empty because there is little to no progression, and no good permanent perks you can use well in the every day life. With Winona it's all in, you mostly have no perks until you get a million stones and start making catapults. Then you can defeat something (a boss most likely) and that's it, there is no reason to stay as Winona over let's say Wendy, who can keep using her main perk (her sister) for many other things.

Wurt is similar in that you get little benefits until you get your king and 10 or 20 merm guards. Wurt is better though, since the merms are efficient workers/bodyguards and befriending them kinda works as an every day thing, even for the early game. And the fish bonus is a cool extra thing to have. The wetness mechanic was sort of halfway implemented and that's why I think it feels kinda off. And the way Wurt handles the merms could use a few new touches, like a way to know when they are about to leave, a way to distinguish them so you know which one is well fed and which isn't, a way to tell when they are hurt, etc. All things that already exists for Bunnymen and pigs.

I think the current model of how characters should be is not Wickerbottom, its Wigfrid:

  • Wigfrid is super popular, has always been super popular, and will probably remain super popular
  • Creates something that is cheap, durable, and useful throughout the whole game for the whole team. You need to constantly keep making them so even you can do the craft and leave thing, it's not that worth doing it that way. Everyone loves her helmets, if you wanna make friends early game in a public server, start as Wigfrid and gift helmets to everyone you find.
  • She has her own unique perks that make the user feel powerful at any point in the game (mostly the life and sanity leech),
  • Even though everyone can use her helmets, she makes better use of her own helmets (and any other armor). 
  • She has a progression value, better weapons, armor and food, make her perks feel stronger as the game advances. EG: With jellybeans, thulecite armor and a backup bat-bat, you can reach nigh-immortal status for a few minutes.
  • She has a meaningful con that forces you to adapt your gamestyle to it.

Any other character, based on Wigfrid, needs to follow the following rules of thumb:
 

  • Have something that benefits the team
  • Have something that benefits the character itself, that can be applied to many situations.
  • Have a meaningful con, that forces you to workaround it in some way. It should be something that does change things, but that does not make your life miserable (unless you are Wes)
  • Whatever she or he offers to the team, probably works a little better on herself/himself.
  • It doesn't matter if this comes packed in a single thing, or many things. As long as there's mostly a theme around them or lore.


TL;DR. The fact that a character is complex can be both good or bad, it doesn't define the character. Some characters are complex and good, and others are complex and bad. Some are simple and good, others are simple and bad. There are other things that make characters feel unique, challenging, and be useful.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bluepufferfish    101

I don't feel like we should be making too harsh claims about Walter before his actual release but we've seen that both complicated and non-complex characters can be interesting in their own rights. Both Wendy and Woodie reworks made originally basic characters much more complex, and even though they've been given much more items it makes their gameplays more interesting and gives them more options. Characters that are overcomplicated are only problems if their complex side is just fluff with no real value to the character itself. That being said though I would like to see more meaningful downsides and I'm very interested to see how Walter's sanity downside plays out since most sanity downsides/upsides are next to meaningless. I hope he's at least fairly hard to play, and I actually am afraid of that bee downside since bees are little demons in their own right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
reichull    1333

I don’t know. I kinda hate the fact that they keep adding characters, and also the fact everyone is getting their own crafting tabs and items. Like new things can be added to the game without making a whole character in order to do so. I hate feeling like I need to switch my character just to craft something that only another character can craft. Like for example, did we really need Wurt? They probably could’ve found a way to add the ability to craft Merm houses and the disguises as anyone. And the pipspooks? Just feels so useless seeing them and not being able to do anything about them unless you’re Wendy. Meh I don’t know. 
 

For me the game isn’t lacking characters, I actually think there is becoming too many. I’d like to see more content that isn’t character specific.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rhovious Aran    511

When character swapping via Celestial Portal became a thing, I was strongly opposed to it and tried not to use it at all.

But now, well I switch back and forth every year. To Wolfgang for Winter/Spring to kill Klaus/Moosegoose & Fuelweaver, probably Toadstool and then back to either Winona if I need catapults, to Wickerbottom if I need Tentacles, to Warly if I need Volt Goat Jelly. If I don't need anything specific I play Willow because I like her as a character. 

But yeah switiching characters is so cheap that I don't get the point of having different characters at all, when the your character choice matters so little or has no consequence why bother even have different ones? Could as well give us custom characters and let us choose stats and perks from a wide variety. Could be a great way to add some customization, like individual faces and hairstyles, bodytypes etc. 

I wish I didn't need to switch back and forth all the time, but hardly any characters have enough value for me that I actually would want to stay as them. 

Characters both need team perks and individual perks to be worth picking imo. Wigfrid is a fantastic example. 

But why would you ever pick Woodie or Maxwell unless you are specifically looking to farm a lot of resources or explore the ocean.

I agree with Reichull above me that I would like to see more non character related content and things to craft. The science tab is so bare bones, structures similar to Wagstaffs Thumper, Telepad & the Hamlet Sprinkler could be fantastic additions. 

I don't need more characters. I can only play one at a time anyway. And whatever they bring to the table is hardly ever game breaking with the exception of the ones that I previously mention swapping towards regularly. I want more things to do and craft no matter which character I play.

The only thing that truly excited me so far about all of the RoT updates was the lunar island.

If I were to compare the New Reign updates with the RoT ones, The New Reign would be at a 10/10 and the RoT at a like 4/10.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
thegreatJash    387

I have to totally agree. I the beginning, we had nice simple characters. Wolfgang was simple, Maxwell was simple, almost everyone was simple. They usually had their main upside, downside, and maybe a little something in between. Maxwell is a perfect example of this. His main upside is that he could create shadow loggers and stuff to get materials ridiculously fast. His main downside was he super low health cap. And something in between was he has a casual sanity aura. That's all you really need.

I can also agree with the crafting tab thing, like Winona, for example. Her whole things her crafting tab. Not that that's a bad thing, but it seems like every character is getting one. I feel like Wortox really felt special because the thing that shined with him is his playstyle, you collect souls, and his playstyle was what makes him a really unique character.

Then, DLC came. They started to make characters a little more complicated. Like Wortox, Warly, and Wornwood. I think they are all fine. Then Wurt came. Let's list everything, shall we? Can make Merm houses, can make upgraded Merm houses, can make the Merm king, is a Vegetarian, feels at home in the swamp. That's all you really needed, Klei. But then they added stuff like, likes having a pet fish, loves Durian, has a strong grip, can make a Merm disguise. That's too much, and it's too complicated.

And then finally, they added she can read books. No. She shouldn't be able to read books imo. I get she likes reading books, but, it really shouldn't actually be in the game. It's too subtle. Maybe an idle animation? And now Walter's falling in the same trap. Can tell stories by the campfire? I'm pretty anyone can do that. Again, it is way too subtle.

And now everyone is falling into the same trap, they are reworking characters and making them too much like Wurt. Too complicated. 

How can they fix this? Simple. Make them simple. Get rid of of Walter's campfire thing, and make his sanity and allergies a bit more of a downside. No sanity by trees. No Woby. No filler. No useless content. His main upside should be his slingshot, his main downside his sanity and allergies, and he likes camping and does it better, the little thing in between. It's really a simple formula.

I am surprised that this conversation even exists on the forums, it is too significant to ignore anymore, with two characters overcomplicated, and more on the way. Please, keep it simple Klei :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    6428

Why? Why keep them simple? If you want simple please go play DS Single Player, Klei is FINALLY Branching DST into the legitimate SEQUEL it should’ve been years ago.

The game literally picks the story up where DS Solo’s Ended.. officially putting it in line to BE a Sequel, At FIRST it was just a stand alone expansion to solo DS.. but now- with these overhauled character Reworks and the new content they’ve been adding it’s truly starting to Feel like an Actual Sequel.. That’s something I want MORE of, I want EVERY Character to be unique to be more complex, to have more PERSONALITY added to their Playstyle.

Yes you may be right Wurt never needed pet fish or to be able to read books in actual gameplay, but those two things heavily drive home the point she’s a young child Merm who doesn’t understand the pet fish she took out of water is actually dying because it’s not still in the water..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dunk Mujunk    1748
12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why? Why keep them simple? If you want simple please go play DS Single Player

That--

........nevermind

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites