sheaker

Abyssalite to tungsten transition. Is it possible in survival?

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sheaker    61

Dear All,

Is it possible in survival game to heat up abyssalite up to 3425*C?

Abyssalite.png.e28341f6474b250d64c4d27a8d119a24.png

For example using heat from rocket engines?

Best regards,
Sheaker

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MilkyWay8    3

Rocket's exhaust isn't enough heat to melt abyssalite. It's better to create insulation in the molecular forge and make tempshift plates or liquid pipes, then melt them.

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Tobruk    341

Yes.

In short:

  • build ice machines out of steel
  • let them operate continuously until they melt (they don't have overheat temp)
  • use pump glitch mechanics to pump the molten steel into insulation insulated pipes
  • use metal refinery to heat up the molten steel even more, up to the abyssalite melting temperature
  • use it to melt abyssalite or insulation
51 minutes ago, sheaker said:

For example using heat from rocket engines?

I don't think rockets will generate the necessary heat nor inject it into abyssalite efficiently, though it sounds simpler than what I proposed.

Edited by Tobruk
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sheaker    61
39 minutes ago, Tobruk said:

Yes.

In short:

  • build ice machines out of steel
  • let them operate continuously until they melt (they don't have overheat temp)
  • use pump glitch mechanics to pump the molten steel into insulation insulated pipes
  • use metal refinery to heat up the molten steel even more, up to the abyssalite melting temperature
  • use it to melt abyssalite or insulation

I don't think rockets will generate the necessary heat nor inject it into abyssalite efficiently, though it sounds simpler than what I proposed.

Wow. That's sounds like a good idea. I will try it definitely.

Thank You!

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TheMule    257

You don't have to use a glitch to pump molten steel if you're willing to sacrifice the pump, use it until it breaks, deconstruct it then rebuild it. You only need 400kg technically, even if running multiple jobs might speed things up.

Also it's hardly a 'glitch'. The pump grabs liquids from more than one tile, and detects the presence of liquid in more than one tile, and does not need to be on the floor (pumps can be built mid-air or mid-liquid). Some clever players came up with an idea to use that to their advantage. No glitch involved.

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Tobruk    341
26 minutes ago, TheMule said:

ou don't have to use a glitch to pump molten steel if you're willing to sacrifice the pump, use it until it breaks, deconstruct it then rebuild it. You only need 400kg technically, even if running multiple jobs might speed things up.

You will be cooling the molten steel this way and it will solidify. The glitch allows for no-contact pumping.

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Zarquan    1006
2 hours ago, Tobruk said:

You will be cooling the molten steel this way and it will solidify. The glitch allows for no-contact pumping.

Steel is actually quite weird.  It melts at like 2300 C, but doesn't resolidify until around 1500 C.  It is actually fairly easy to pump.

 

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psusi    277

You forgot to mention that you need to use obsidian pipes to transfer heat out of the molten steel into a granite tile with some coal sitting on it next to the wolframite.  When the tile gets hot enough it will cook the coal into a solid tile of refined carbon, that now can ferry heat from the obsidian pipe it is encasing to the wolframite until it melts.

 

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TheMule    257
29 minutes ago, Tobruk said:

You will be cooling the molten steel this way and it will solidify.

In the long run, with multiple pumps, maybe.

But steel (ice makers) melt at 2426.85C. Liquid steel solidifies at 1083.85C. You have some leeway. Expecially if you smelt 2-3 of them. 400kg of steel at 20C + 1200 steel at 2426.85C give you 1600kg of steel at 1824C. The pump will be destroyed, it won't melt of course, but the liquid steel won't solidify. It takes a few pumps to freeze it, and before that you should be able to pump the amount you need.

BTW I'm all for using the clever method. People who don't like it, can use the 'regular' way.

 

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SkunkMaster    245

Abys straight into tungsten is not really viable since you would have to build a big machinery to heat up the abys while they are still tiles, hence you would not only have to build a big machine, you would have to move it around.

 

How ever, turning abys into insulation and then melting that, is viable, like stated by others. 

 

 

This was my machine for it, i didn't wanna make a machine that broke pipes, so i constantly pump liquid niobium around and heat that in a refinery.

20191020173644_1.thumb.jpg.816e6b5c64827a0d47bbc9aed0fd50e3.jpg

 

Pipes for those who dig that: 

20191105011448_1.thumb.jpg.2bbf2cd8c6f7fcb48cd4ee0ede715fed.jpg

Should say how ever the reed farm needed to run this continuously is kinda silly :D

Spoiler

20191020161516_1.thumb.jpg.ee50ce015eff43fe2d232003c7c85360.jpg

 

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mathmanican    3329
23 minutes ago, kbn said:

Embedding Abyssalite in an Abyssalite Tile with an automated dispenser

@Zarquan are you thinking what I'm thinking.... Flaking abuse with any solid has just phased up.... thanks @kbn for sharing. I missed this crucial tidbit.

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mathmanican    3329
44 minutes ago, kbn said:

This is what I actually tried in the sandbox.

@kbn if you increase the height of the steam column then I think the efficiency of the Abysalator can shoot way up. This design has tungsten appearing as a bead at the bottom of the steam column. This causes the steam to combine into one cell and then flake at twice the mass which resets the steam temp much lower. Increasing the height of the steam column sufficiently to mitigate this bunching up of mass could increase the original Abysalator by massive amounts. One run in a metal refinery might melt thousands of kg instead of 200.... see the decrypting flaking thread for more details.

Sorry @flapee we didn't figure this out sooner. 

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kbn    278
1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

@kbn if you increase the height of the steam column then I think the efficiency of the Abysalator can shoot way up.

I tried it.
As you say, heat consumption has been surprisingly reduced.
Thanks to that, all unwanted Avisalite looks like tungsten.

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mathmanican    3329
16 minutes ago, kbn said:

As you say, heat consumption has been surprisingly reduced.

If you make the column tall enough to basically negate any fluctuations in mass at the top (maybe 4 or 5 tiles tall), then you basically won't have to add any heat aside from the very minute amount added to the abysallite from flaking. You'll want the mass of steam to be spot on near the right amount (around 4.7 in the other thread).  Hit the right conditions, and I'm guessing you could convert 25kg/s constant stream of abysallite to tungsten with almost no extra heat.  This is outrageous. 

16 minutes ago, kbn said:

all unwanted Avisalite looks like tungsten.

I'm with you. Mine it all, but one tile, and convert away. :)  Maybe bring some back from planets when you run out in a few cycles.

Edited by mathmanican
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mathmanican    3329

If you kept some cool gas on a different surface to offset the temp rise on the abysallite from conduction, then you would have to add even less heat to keep things going. So if you don't want to maintain 3500C temps, you could intead inject -100C temps on the other side to offset the very small rise in Abysalite heat...

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HeatEngine    3
3 hours ago, mathmanican said:

@kbn if you increase the height of the steam column then I think the efficiency of the Abysalator can shoot way up.

Can make it so the steam amount doesn't change if you have another gas under it:

Spoiler

Starting with 500kg of steam at 4000K as the heat source, 5kg steam and 1kg/tile chlorine at 4000K I got 1275kg tungsten.

Tempshift is required so that tungsten turns into chunks early otherwise it later turns into a tile and destroys the setup. Also need sufficient amount of chlorine otherwise the chunk can momentarily liquefy and turn into a block. Could probably whisk it away with a sweeper to avoid those issues also

steam.png.ece6a20db9962289cdca02e9e39160db.png

 

Can improve the efficiency "somewhat" by using different donor:

Spoiler

Using 41kg of chlorine and 1kg CO2 this flaked 10t of abysallite and still had energy to keep going. 

chlor.png.124a988b237fb9668105b81378ae4e28.png

 

 

 

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Tobruk    341

What temp do you need the steam heat source at? 2C above abyssylite melt temp? Could molten steel heated up by piped molten steel work better?

Also, why the two different gases? I did not understand a word from @mathmanican explanation of temp decrease when steam travels downwards (or something??).

Edited by Tobruk
grammar

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Prince Mandor    178
20 minutes ago, Tobruk said:

What temp do you need the steam heat source at? 2C above abyssylite melt temp?

Also, why the two different gases? I did not understand a word from @mathmanican explanation of temp decrease when steam travels downwards (or something??).

There are very specific mechanic in game, called flaking. It is melting of small portions of tile.

This process needs some specific condition to work.

But also this mechanic is broken, so we can select materials, masses and temperatures in such way, so process became nearly free.

For example, abyssalite flaked with using 4.7 kg of steam as donor can be done with minimal additional spending of energy. Steam will be nearly same temperature after process and allow to do it again and again.

But. Melting abyssalite creates tungsten. And this liquid tungsten occupy a tile. And as result it compress steam. For example, if we have two tiles of very hot steam, 4.7 kg per tile, than tungsten appears in one of them, and we will have one tile of tungsten and one tile of steam with 9.4 kg. And this change in mass will break a delicate balance, and on next tick super hot steam at 3500°C became 1700°C, and we must spend lot of time and energy heating it back.

So, there must be some way to keep steam mass in working cell. One way is to make a large column of hot steam, so liquid tungsten fall down and compress steam at the bottom. This also breaks exact value of steam mass, but less dramatically. We lost some temperature, but not as much as in two cell example.

One more idea is to make at the bottom of steam some chamber with another gas, and to make it in such way, so liquid tungsten compress this gas, but doesn't change a number of steam tiles, and delicate balance of masses and temperatures will be preserved.

I hope this explains something to you

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mathmanican    3329
6 hours ago, HeatEngine said:

Can make it so the steam amount doesn't change if you have another gas under it:

Beautiful.

58 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

I hope this explains something to you

Well said.

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OxCD    734

Without using any glitch, I don't think it's doable, especially when Abyssalite has already been dug out.

Aby debris nearly doesn't exchange heat. I've used a 15°C 10kg debris into hundreds kg of steel at 3400C, it tooks a cycle for 0.5°C. Also, the more heat Aby will gain, the less exchange you will have with the steel. It will take thousands of cycle for few kgs.

Using rails to move debris through diamond tiles and speed up heat echange ? No rail can handle 3500°C.

Using a refinery to heat up (diamond) tiles (linked to point above) ? No radiant pipe can handle 3500°C (max is Tungsten, which his limit is the t° you need to reach for the Aby to melt).

Using Aby as tempshift plates to speed up exchange ? Can't.

I would be happy if someone have any other idea without using flaking or other bug/glitch, to melt Aby debris :-/

 

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Zarquan    1006
13 minutes ago, OxCD said:

Without using any glitch, I don't think it's doable, especially when Abyssalite has already been dug out.

Aby debris nearly doesn't exchange heat. I've used a 15°C 10kg debris into hundreds kg of steel at 3400C, it tooks a cycle for 0.5°C. Also, the more heat Aby will gain, the less exchange you will have with the steel. It will take thousands of cycle for few kgs.

Using rails to move debris through diamond tiles and speed up heat echange ? No rail can handle 3500°C.

Using a refinery to heat up (diamond) tiles (linked to point above) ? No radiant pipe can handle 3500°C (max is Tungsten, which his limit is the t° you need to reach for the Aby to melt).

Using Aby as tempshift plates to speed up exchange ? Can't.

I would be happy if someone have any other idea without using flaking or other bug/glitch, to melt Aby debris :-/

 

Keep in mind that flaking itself is not a glitch, and neither is block combining.  I personally think both of these mechanics are perfectly reasonable.  The glitch in flaking is the incorrect math, not the mechanic itself.  These mechanics were specifically programmed in by the devs. 

If you don't want to exploit the heat bug with abyssalite flaking, you can calculate the exact mass of the gas to create or delete no heat.  We have been pushing the flaking math to the limits, but if you had the right mass values, you could flake your abyssalite without creating or destroying any heat.

Edited by Zarquan
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OxCD    734
2 hours ago, Zarquan said:

Keep in mind that flaking itself is not a glitch, and neither is block combining.

Well, while I understand your point of view on that, I'm sorry but I do not accept using this mechanism as I feel it cheating for the gameplay guideline I follow :) no offense. No real way to define glitch limits.

 

2 hours ago, Zarquan said:

The glitch in flaking is the incorrect math

So I'm ready to admit that this is the issue. Let's say that if devs solve this, I'll begin using flaking. Until then, I don't wanna use it intentionnaly. More specifically, I don't wanna abuse it.

By the way, maybe because of my misunderstanding of the mechanic, I don't see how to use it in this melting process.

 

Edited by OxCD

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