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Massive heat deletion/creation bug from liquid boiling -- Part 2: 20 kW from one aquatuner.


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On 6/7/2020 at 8:29 AM, mathmanican said:

Here's another monstrosity, that uses the hydrogen/ice combo I found yesterday. I wanted to provide a laugh for some of you before the day ends.

image.png.e2cde39be531bd082970795a75a852c1.png

This little contraption no longer deletes mass.  All the ice that flakes to water is instantly frozen by the hydrogen with the help of the bridges. Incoming petro at 10kg/s is at 676K (the temp it would leave the crude flaker).  The petro that drops off the left varies from just above freezing petro (you actually get solid petro every time the hydrogen resets, and have to wait for it to melt), up to around 370K (less than 100C).  The pool of petro below averages around 308K. 

 

Can we (no debug) compress thousands tons of water by esher, and freeze it to tiles?

So, we have enough ice for 10'000 cycles, and forget about refilling? or just made some fast (survival) ice tiles creator and just quickly rebuild it every 100+ cycles

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5 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

Can we (no debug) compress thousands tons of water by esher, and freeze it to tiles?

Of course. Though you have to balance hydrogen as well. I'll be making a post with more details soon. Yesterday I had fun raining lava. 

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Something I have been thinking about is using extremely high mass in your working fluid. Unwanted conduction between the liquid and gas at the flaking/boiling point can be completely eliminated. While this solves some issues, it introduces others.

I would want to use ~1700C magma in order to get a lot of heat per tick because of the big temperature delta. But the delta is so big that heat conduction between magma and the resulting rock gas is enough to condense the gas in a single tick. For whatever flow reasons this doesn't happen every other tick as you might think, but it still ruins the point having a high delta. Using ~1,000,000 kg of magma eliminates the issue, but now you have to design around using that much magma.

I think using a smaller delta (and the problems that come with having to control that delta in the face of unwanted conduction) is the better solution. But is does disappoint me a bit to not use a huge delta.

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On 6/7/2020 at 7:29 AM, mathmanican said:

Here's another monstrosity, that uses the hydrogen/ice combo I found yesterday. I wanted to provide a laugh for some of you before the day ends.

image.png.e2cde39be531bd082970795a75a852c1.png

This little contraption no longer deletes mass.  All the ice that flakes to water is instantly frozen by the hydrogen with the help of the bridges. Incoming petro at 10kg/s is at 676K (the temp it would leave the crude flaker).  The petro that drops off the left varies from just above freezing petro (you actually get solid petro every time the hydrogen resets, and have to wait for it to melt), up to around 370K (less than 100C).  The pool of petro below averages around 308K. 

I figure with a temp sensor to detect when the hydrogen stays above 275.5C for too long (in other words, the ice has all melted), we can even get this thing to completely reset itself. As is, this setup will probably run for 100+cycles before running out of 5kg chunks of ice. 

I've got plans for an electrolyzer build that cools all oxygen coming into the base. I've already made sure 95C water from any water geyers is ready for all farms at 10-15C... Base cooling has never been easier. 

#EmbraceTheFlake

Totally broken... although the flaking was not happening at 3K above melting, but 3K above vaporization point. 2 tons of hydrogen "snowflaked" 2 tons of methane ice to convert 14 tons of sour gas at 150°C inbetween into methane and some natural gas to finally 9.33 tones of liquid methane at between -165 and -167 °C. The usability is kind of limited though, cause the methane ice tile with acceptable TC is converted to ice debris with shitty TC. So probably one has to melt this to get a tile again.

Broken1.thumb.png.5b1edcb604a9e8c55691c183cdcfc0fe.pngBroken2.thumb.png.951c072e0cc6277e68047aab6188b647.pngBroken3.thumb.png.065897b2b3731cc9665d3cdc34da93d4.png

The temp shift plates i added inbetween to accelerate the process. ( I connected the bridges too to get rid of the red symbols :D)

Edit: So with this behavior and the formula in mind, i think solids with a small "distance" between freezing and vaporization like carbon dioxide or methane are good candidates for the ice tiles (to make melting and freezing easier)... and massive amounts of hydrogen... the more, the better. Vaporization temperature of the ice has to be lower than needed temperatures too, or else you maybe wont reach the desired temps, so oxygen is a good candidate too... although melting/freezing is more difficult, oxygen has the second lowest vaporization temperature after hydrogen, so you can reach almost every other temperature.

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17 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

So probably one has to melt this to get a tile again

For methane applications, I would just throw away the flaked off solid methane (or move it somewhere to thaw at ridiculously slow rates), and prepare a way to refill the room rapidly with liquid methane, refreeze it into solid tiles, and then continue using it. Alternately, use solid oxygen, and just a keep a liquid tepidizer ready to keep the methane from freezing. The Pacu Farm designs already have great ways of getting liquids replaced rapidly, so grabbing something like those, attached to a heating/cooling system with supercoolant in the pipes, would make this automateable.

One key piece is that you do have to maintain a temperature delta between the donor and flaked cell (this is why I have bridges, not tempshift plates). If they ever get too close, then the entire process stops.  This can easily happen when you get down to very low amounts of solid material, or low amounts of gas. You may have to heat the last bit of solid using conduction, but that shouldn't be too hard. 

This isn't really an issue in normal game play, unless you like to build electrolyzers in the ice biome, and are happy amassing high pressure gas (the high pressure gas is where the huge cooling comes from, when the entire chunk of gas has its temp reset).  If you do, then your ice biome can get VERY cold, despite adding a consistent 70C+ influx of oxygen and hydrogen.  Over time, your ice biome can get colder and colder.  People who like to run a metal refinery in the ice biome may be benefit greatly from this mechanic.

One game a few months ago I got the almost 0K achievement almost instantly upon revealing an ice biome. I was completely shocked by this.  Now I'm pretty sure I know why. The drecko habitat and ice biome overlapped, and  pocket of hydrogen was in the ice biome.  Upon reveal, the hydrogen reset to really low temp (best guess), and I got the achievement...

Getting Regolith to flake magma is also completely doable.  Unfortunately, you can't just "increase the mass" of gas, as then you have to deal with high conductivity, and keeping something above 1700K is not as easy as keeping something above 0C. Using space, a low volume bleed of extremely hot gas under a regolith tile (and then the gas dissipates to space) allows for a simple way to make magma from regolith. Still working on making this super efficient, but it's doable.  

 

 

36 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

I connected the bridges too to get rid of the red symbols

Do your tiles now flake at the same rate?  If not, you will probably want to put conveyor rails behind all 4 tiles, for symmetry. Otherwise, one tile will flake more often than the other (the one with less mass), and you'll end up having issues...

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51 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Do your tiles now flake at the same rate?  If not, you will probably want to put conveyor rails behind all 4 tiles, for symmetry. Otherwise, one tile will flake more often than the other (the one with less mass), and you'll end up having issues...

I connected them from one end to the other, so should be symmetric. It was not important in this show case, i even had some imbalance in hydrogen distribution (999.9kg vs 1000kg), although i added same amount via debug menu (some grams probably exchanged places, and wont be rebalanced). 

Although every ice material should do, when hydrogen begins above vaporization point (and resets to quite low temps), i think, to use this reliable, ice mats vaporization point should be below desired target temps.

On the other end of the scala i have not thought about, how to work with this. Gas carbon has to be of quite some low mass to make the temp reset back to "condensation" reach over the vaporization point to let it stay gasous, tungsten is maybe even better cause of the low SHC even with higher vap temperature. Too low masses get deleted though... and abyssalite has no melting or vaporization point. 8-) Tried to flake with tungsten gas at 1g... with abyssalite nothing happened... with solid iron the tungsten gas vanished. What was the limit for vanishing? 10g?

Edit: Hmm... doesn't worked for me... tungsten gas was flashing to solid debris instantly. So maybe there is some <> decision involved.

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55 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

Edit: Hmm... doesn't worked for me... tungsten gas was flashing to solid debris instantly. So maybe there is some <> decision involved.

The donor element cannot change phase through the temp reset. In addition, the temp reset must be BELOW the flaked solids melting point. These are my best guesses on the conditions, so far. As such, you cannot use gaseous tungsten to flake regolith to magma (it would be reset to solid).  But you can use any gas that takes gaseous form below 1676K. (I prefer to use K instead of C, when dealing with stuff like this, as the game generally has most phase transitions happen at integer K values). You also have to remember that the temp reset has the mass of the donor in the denominator, so if you go too small in mass, then the reset temp gets too high.  As such, you cannot go too small with mass. You have a narrow window where you can get more from flaking, than just straight conduction.  Make the mass too high, and conduction bleeds all your heat.  Make the mass too low, and you cannot flake. Generating heat this way is much trickier. TO make matters even more fun, the SHC of the donor is in the denominator as well, so if it has small SHC, then you must increase the mass to compensate. Chlorine actually does a pretty decent job of flaking regolith, but you need around 7-8kg of it to flake 600K regolith to magma, and then at that mass you still loose quite a bit of heat to conduction.

The nice thing is that flaking instantly gets you the 1676K temp material, but unfortunately also lowers your heat source temp.  Trying to maintain a large enough delta to keep the donor cell above 1676K then gets tricky...  The lower the delta, the less mass you need, but then you have to preheat stuff. If you could make solid tiles appear rapidly in small (5kg) quantities, then this would be easy (like beading liquid crude past a just barely hot enough heat source).

Looking through the gasses, Propane actually seems like it might be the best for this purpose (doesn't exist without debug). Next best will probably be sour gas, followed by natural gas and then polluted oxygen.  You want low conductivity to avoid heat bleed, high specific heat to allow lower masses (for ease of delivery), and a way to wisk away gas when not needed (a bypass pump, bead pump, or space vacuum).  There are of course other ways to do this, but that's currently what I'm playing with. The thing flakes every second, when I hit the right conditions, so basically I get a 5kg/s magma pump (but I do have to waste a gas to achieve it). This setup is done with steam, but sour gas would do much better (I only looked up all the properties while writing this). As conduction shrinks the delta, the flaking rate drops as well since the gas temp reset is much lower. I'm thinking a liquid metal, attached to a bypass pump, could get me a constant flow. Since regolith can be made to stack on top of other piles of regolith, and debris just get added to tiles, I'm pretty sure we could make 5kg/s constant magma flow at 1676K. With a tad better delivery system on the gas, This might be bumped up to 25kg/s (5 flakes per second). #EmbraceTheFlake

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5 hours ago, wachunga said:

But is does disappoint me a bit to not use a huge delta.

I'm with you. I'd love to use a high delta, but then you loose way to much to conduction to keep it going.  I'll play with a high concentration build (not hard with escher falls), but does require a long time to prime and get built up. If it provided you a nice way to let all the regolith on the map forever bleed away as magma, maybe it would be worth it.  Maybe. 

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20 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Looking through the gasses, Propane actually seems like it might be the best for this purpose (doesn't exist without debug). Next best will probably be sour gas, followed by natural gas and then polluted oxygen.  You want low conductivity to avoid heat bleed, high specific heat to allow lower masses (for ease of delivery), and a way to wisk away gas when not needed (a bypass pump, bead pump, or space vacuum).

Hot flaking is not for me, i think... especially the constraint, that the temp reset has to be either below melting point of flaked material... or at least below it's initial starting temp. (Something like the denominator has to be >1, or in other words DonorSHC * DonorMass has to be greater than 1). I tried to flake 573K regolith, with 3000K hot gases. For this i needed around 5kg of chlorine, 700g gasous phosphorus was working as well. I also think, in addition to your selection of gases, carbon dioxide would also work good, probable amount at around 500g.

Additionally I found, when temp of regolith was at 293K, 700g of phosporus wasn't enough anymore, i needed more than 1kg, but of course that meant a higher delta, which probably violated a constraint.

6 minutes ago, melquiades said:

@mathmanican @Zarquan So, from what i understand, if you are not actively trying to abuse this bug you wouldn't probably bump with it on the wild, would you?

This bug has so many applications, you will meet it in many places... even by chance randomly in the wild, as @mathmanican mentioned with his ice biom observation.

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1 hour ago, melquiades said:

So, from what i understand, if you are not actively trying to abuse this bug you wouldn't probably bump with it on the wild, would you?

It occurs on basically every map in the oil biome. When you see little pockets of petro (in multiples of 5kg), or sour gas, then it occurred.  But it will stop.  It will happen in the ice biome as well, if you try to move something hot into that biome (like a refinery or electrolyzer), though the results will not be anywhere near as pronounced. It would not surprise me if the formulas they used try to take into account 2000g overpressure limits, in the ice biome, with hydrogen and oxygen interacting with ice (compare 5kg of ice jumping 30C and forming water to 2kg of hydrogen dropping 150C).  

The flaking mechanic can interact in any build that involved phase changes. So if you only want to play the game using premade buildings, you probably won't encounter it very often.  If you want to deal with anything that involves phase changes, and you hit the right conditions, then you'll encounter flaking.  Most of this section is on exploting this mechanic.  I'm working on a post to showcase normal applications that occur all the time. It's designed on purpose to allow solid blocks to sweat liquid in the ice biome (that's my guess). 

Should it be removed from the game?  Not sure.  But beware that as soon as you start playing with phase change buildings, problems can arise (both hindering or helping the process). This messes with people's ability to design a machine, and makes designing frustrating, if you don't know about the mechanic. Edit: Personally, I decided to follow this topic after making an efficient open counterflow heat exchanger for converting crude to petro utilizing escher waterfalls to create separate transfer regions. I wanted my boiler plate to not loose/gain heat from odd mechanics, and that lead me deciding to figure out flaking (so I can build around it and/or exploit it). 

By the way, I recently ran across a thread from @Coolthulhu, long ago, describing some details.  If you have any more info to shed on the topic, feel free. If all this is old hat to you and you've already figured out the details and want to share, please do. 

Edit: Here are some more related threads. Gonna link em all, so we have one place to go for more info. 

Spoiler

 Somebody encountered magical naptha gains from their build (probably from flaking isoresin insulated tiles). The thread ended without a reason for why.  I'm pretty sure it was flaking. 

Simple steam turbine designs can trigger the bug. Debris are pretty powerful (beware of them). Here is a great explanation by @wachunga

Here are quite a few details about getting tungsten. 

@Kabrute (miss that guy) noticed over 2 years ago that you can do this "through the bridge".  Gonna check this one.  Maybe i can use a 25kg bridge to melt stuff.....  That would change lots of mechanics, as then I can purposely choose to use a 25kg/100kg/5kg/etc item which allows for a lot more options.  Pretty excited about the possibilities. 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, melquiades said:

@mathmanican @Zarquan So, from what i understand, if you are not actively trying to abuse this bug you wouldn't probably bump with it on the wild, would you?

I posted the bug to showcase how broken it is.  I want the devs to fix it, and if it isn't heavily abused or heavily abusable, they won't look at it.  I think flaking is a perfectly reasonable mechanic, it's just that the math is off.  By demonstrating the sheer power of their math error, we show them that it is worthy of their attention.

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32 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

I posted the bug to showcase how broken it is.  I want the devs to fix it, and if it isn't heavily abused or heavily abusable, they won't look at it.

The easier, the better. I think "cold flaking", aka heat deletion is easier to achieve, but even "hot flaking", aka heat creation is doable, although with much more hassle. To get the hot gas for flaking, at least less heat is needed than for melting regolith (factor around 2), which itself is already heat positive by factor 5. so one has a factor 10 heat multiplying to play with. Handling such high temps is not for the faint hearted though. :-D

Wow, forgot, that there are already many heat creation applications in this thread, so ignore, what i have said. One does not need the melt magma to create massive amounts of heat... boiling liquids is already enough.

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2 hours ago, melquiades said:

if you are not actively trying to abuse this bug you wouldn't probably bump with it on the wild, would you?

The more I read, the more I find examples of people who bump into it all the time, unintentionally. Poor @Ellilea got killed by it when trying to build a nice pit for her crude oil (it occurred because she wanted to build insulated tiles, and exposed really hot abysallite). In that same post, poor @Derringer's goal of melting a glacier was decimated by the hydrogen/ice combo. 

The devs made this claim in the Feb 24th update:

Fix "Flaking" bug. Tiles and doors will no longer partially melt when they get too warm

I suspect they mean that manmade tiles no longer flake (this fixes some of the oddities I've been reading about).  They did not remove flaking of natural tiles for sure, so poor @Ellilea and @Derringer would not have seen any benefit.

If the mechanic is in the game, and you have to design around it, then you might as well design with it in mind as well.  The more hilarious, the better.  Eventually, the devs will have to ask how hilarious they want things to be, and hopefully will address it. Till then, time to abuse this like mad and hope for change.  It might take a while, but they do get around to things. If it stops DLC progress, then that would be horrible. But if crazy builds help this topic bubble up on a priority list, that's all I hope for. The game is pretty great even with flaking. How to fix it, I don't know. I'm sure there are other interconnected mechanics we don't yet understand.

1 hour ago, TripleM999 said:

Wow, forgot, that there are already many heat creation applications in this thread, so ignore, what i have said. One does not need the melt magma to create massive amounts of heat... boiling liquids is already enough.

Bingo.  The only real issue is keeping your donor cell at a sufficient temp to enable flaking.  It's trivial to do this with a metal refinery and flaking liquids. Flaking solids for heat generation is definitely a lot trickier. With just the crude to petro bead flaker, you have enough heat to keep many steam turbines fully powered along with petro for rockets/plastic, and more. Couple it with a petro to sourgas flaker if you want to unleash massive amounts of NG (using a hydrogen/ice flaker for cooling).  We don't have a matter converter with this bug, but we do get a phase change converter that can be exothermic, or endothermic, on massive scales. 

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1 hour ago, TripleM999 said:

The easier, the better. I think "cold flaking", aka heat deletion is easier to achieve, but even "hot flaking", aka heat creation is doable, although with much more hassle. To get the hot gas for flaking, at least less heat is needed than for melting regolith (factor around 2), which itself is already heat positive by factor 5. so one has a factor 10 heat multiplying to play with. Handling such high temps is not for the faint hearted though. :-D

Wow, forgot, that there are already many heat creation applications in this thread, so ignore, what i have said. One does not need the melt magma to create massive amounts of heat... boiling liquids is already enough.

I guess I need to create a phosphorus boiler to show off that it can be done, as well as simple techniques to set it up with minimal steel and no space materials.

On a side note, I've been trying to work on my ice maker magma boiler, but everything keeps exploding.  I can use the ice maker to boil magma, but when the boiler is too cold, the magma comes in contact with high pressure rock gas, which causes the rock gas to liquefy and teleport magma to the most inconvenient places possible.  I should probably replace my bead pump with a bypass pump for its better compact throughput.

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I have designed a flash boiler where you can easily vacuum the area around the boiler plate/donor cell without deleting any liquid.  This is important if your heat source is not strong enough (e.g. an ice maker), as you do not want the liquid in contact with the heat plate if the heat plate is not currently boiling the liquid, as regular thermal conductivity is the enemy of flash boiling builds.

image.thumb.png.853abd6c391f9895a5e056272f4045de.png

Here, we have a magma boiler chamber.  Heat is being delivered through 3 super massive diamond natural tiles at 2417 K (10 degrees below the melting point of steel).  This is because the heat source isn't important here..  It uses a 641 kg refined carbon as the donor cell.  It can boil the magma from 1452.2 to 2356 C.  The rock gas is then pumped away using a molten iron lossless liquid bypass powered by an escher waterfall with molten gold as the heavier liquid.

There is a thermosensor behind the refined carbon set to 2380 C (Fun fact, temp sensors worth when entombed).  If the temperature falls below that temperature, then a 3 step automated process happens.  First, the door under the boiler plate closes.  Then, the two other doors close.  Then, the door under the boiler plate opens.  This results in a vacuum under the boiling plate. 

Strictly speaking, there is a time when it is a rock gas atmosphere, but the bypass pump quickly deals with it. 

Other than the insulated tiles (which are insulation because I didn't want to spend time preheating the different chambers), everything here is pre-space and could be built, though setting it up in survival mode would be an interesting challenge.  I intend to use this in my ice maker-powered magma boiler.

Spoiler

There are several aspects which are fairly simple, however, which are fairly trivial if you have a heat source capable of boiling magma.  For example, the refined carbon tile can be created easily to kg precision by simply putting that mass of coal in to a storage compactor, destroying the compactor, build what ever you need behind it, then heat to around 280 C.  This should form a refined carbon tile of the mass needed.  I use refined carbon because it is solid and it has an obscenely high melting point. 

The one major drawback in this design is the steel door.  You need a decently high overpressurization of the magma to get the magma to the boiler plate again, and the insulated tiles kept breaking.  I tried airflow tiles, but that caused some of the rock gas to go down, so doors became the only option.  And the door has to be steel so it doesn't melt.  This results in a rather significant extra thermal transfer. 

Additionally, if there is not a solid material where the manual airlock is, something odd happens and flash boiling doesn't take place.  Or if it does, it reliquifies almost instantly and rock gas does not reach the airflow tile.

I would show more overlays, but my game crashed before I saved it and before I could take the pictures and I don't want to build it again tonight.

EDIT:  Also, it's off screen, but some of the rock gas from this setup appears to have reliquified in the airflow tile because I forgot to preheat it and th emagma teleported up about 50 tiles from where the airflow tile is and boiled a small lake in the slame biome.  Interesting result.

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Tried something... worked astonishing well... although i don't know, how to get the diamond window tile on the right to a suitable temp (the natural diamond tiles are at 3000K).

Regolith can be feed from above.

RegolithMelter.png.302dd234d86f4e5e2f08b60f47a50306.png

 

Hmm... the last 5 or below kilos have to be removed another way.

Cause the temperatures looked the way, i tried to use liquid iron and liquid gold at their geyser exit temps as heat source. Interesting enough, iron at 2526.85°C (2800K) was not able to heat the steam up to flaking temp (i wonder why). it stayed at 1386°C. Liquid gold on the other side at 2626.85 (2900K) was able to heat up the steam enough for flaking to happen.

Now this becomes ridiculous... if i increase the steam pressure to 500g, then liquid iron too is able to reach flaking temps in steam.

RegolithMelterIron.png.8309236e784af97374895d3d30662016.png

When i try to replicate, it works with 250g too... crazy... although not for long... 500g works much more reliable for iron at 2800K.

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20 hours ago, Zarquan said:

I guess I need to create a phosphorus boiler to show off that it can be done,

Inspired by your original super coolant loop, just liquefying the gas instantly and having it complete a loop without the boiling plate inside, here is a phosphorous boiler. @TripleM999, this shows a simple way to abuse flaking, using only steel for the aquatuner. 

image.thumb.png.196b80a4ae09fdc4192f386467090ff7.png

No liquids are high pressure.  The temp gauge in the AT room is at 300C, which easily keeps the Naptha contact plate above the required 283.5C (it stays at about 299.1C. The temp gauge at the left end of the turbine run is at 175C, and the doors open if it gets hotter (processing more steam).  I originally use MaficRock (or sedimentary would work the same with SHC = 0.2), and then I could flake (flash boil) with a temp delta of about 103C. Swapping to 19kg of Naptha allowed a 108.16 temp delta (I could have used more Naptha for a larger bump). Right now, the liquid arrives to the contact point at 176.6C, and I get a massive 106.9C bump in temp. 

Fun fact: Increasing the temp in the aquatuner room to 400C, or 1000C, does not affect the 176.6C on the left of the bottom layer of gas. It radically affects the second tile up of gas.  Thoughts:  The heat bleed from conduction only happens between the naptha (donor) and newly created 5kg of gas.  The bottom layer of gas in this picture is always 5kg at 283.5C, always. The 283.5C will bleed some heat into the incoming liquid left of it (which is why I have 176.6C, not 175C liquid), but that's it.  The incoming liquid to be flaked only steals, via conduction, the amount that 5kg of the newly created mass can give.  You can't reduce this (though I could drop the temp sensor to 174, and get another 1C on my temp delta). Any excess heat added to the boiler plate does not backflow, rather it moves with the system into the turbines for processing. All of this requires 100% uptime on flaking. If you can't maintain the conditions, then the gas all pushes up, the liquids touch, and the whole process dies. But with phosphorous, this isn't a problem.

One last fun fact (already known). The liquid flow is 25kg/s in this loop.  It's constantly cycling the exact same liquid, at 25kg/s.  Crazy. It reminds me of @socooo's turbine build that used phosphorous. 

Spoiler

Though this build abused the liquid tepidizer, not flaking (and worked before the turbine was changed), and was inspiration for the bead pump, though his principle was an air lift pump (requiring gas under the beads), which the bead pump does not require. @TripleM999, I think what you are using in your SG builds is more closely related to this air lift pump than a bead pump. 

1.thumb.gif.1138815333ab18a706c79d0b3493

 

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44 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Inspired by your original super coolant loop, just liquefying the gas instantly and having it complete a loop without the boiling plate inside, here is a phosphorous boiler.

Now i know, what Klei has made the sulfur byproduct from NG synthesis for... it's quite a perfect substitution, if one has no phosphorus at hand. :-D

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1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

Inspired by your original super coolant loop, just liquefying the gas instantly and having it complete a loop without the boiling plate inside, here is a phosphorous boiler. @TripleM999, this shows a simple way to abuse flaking, using only steel for the aquatuner. 

image.thumb.png.196b80a4ae09fdc4192f386467090ff7.png

What's the uptime on the aquatuner?  If it is less than 50%, you might be able to attach a mirrored boiler on the other side.

52 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

Now i know, what Klei has made the sulfur byproduct from NG synthesis for... it's quite a perfect substitution, if one has no phosphorus at hand. :-D

The problem is that sulfur's boiling point is above that (the overheat temperature) of a steel aquatuner.  This means that you would either need space materials or use a metal refinery.  I personally think that using a metal refinery here is against the spirit of the thread to a certain extent, as metal refineries are already power positive and they can't run forever.

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1 minute ago, mathmanican said:

Less than 10 percent. I could probably get 6 running. I'll see what I can do.

I fine that to be a very important stat, as it isn't 1 aquatuner that is generating this power, merely a tenth of one.

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17 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

The problem is that sulfur's boiling point is above that of a steel aquatuner.  This means that you would either need space materials or use a metal refinery.  I personally think that using a metal refinery here is against the spirit of the thread to a certain extent, as metal refineries are already power positive and they can't run forever.

You are right of course. Limiting this to continuous non space operations will make it more appealing to abuse it. 8-)

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

I think what you are using in your SG builds is more closely related to this air lift pump than a bead pump.

Without the sour gas below the liquid crud/pet it would form a waterfall (it tries to do from time to time), so in some sense this is correct.

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1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

you might be able to attach a mirrored boiler on the other side.

Here is 4 of them.  The aquatuner is still heating up the interior, but it is getting hotter.  I'm pretty sure I could add at least one more row of 6 turbines.  Not sure if I could add more.  But with all the extra space in the middle, might as well just add more aquatuners.....

image.thumb.png.6528afe925e99affc83b355cbea2ae48.png

Edit: No extensive testing done, but gut feeling is I could easily get 8 chambers going (so 24 turbines). The middle area is 400C from top to bottom, without any temp shift plates, and the turbine doesn't appear to be up more than half time. 

If anyone wants a save so they can play with the design above, here you go. SuperNovaST.sav

Beware, I have not done anything to cool the turbines yet (I just paint over -200C supercoolant periodically).  Cooling systems can be added later.  

I think nothing will functionally be lost if I just move the turbines 3 tiles towards the middle, leaving a 2 tile wide middle column of steam. That will reduce the footprint.  Alternatively, we could add one row to each region, making this fit nicely in a 4 tile per level base. The extra space in the middle can then be used to create naptha/petro liquid locks for open access to pretty much the whole thing by dupes (whether that's good or not is another question - less dupe access means less room for dupe error). 

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2 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Here is 4 of them.  The aquatuner is still heating up the interior, but it is getting hotter.  I'm pretty sure I could add at least one more row of 6 turbines.  Not sure if I could add more.  But with all the extra space in the middle, might as well just add more aquatuners.....

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.6528afe925e99affc83b355cbea2ae48.png

Edit: No extensive testing done, but gut feeling is I could easily get 8 chambers going (so 24 turbines). The middle area is 400C from top to bottom, without any temp shift plates, and the turbine doesn't appear to be up more than half time. 

If anyone wants a save so they can play with the design above, here you go. SuperNovaST.sav

Beware, I have not done anything to cool the turbines yet (I just paint over -200C supercoolant periodically).  Cooling systems can be added later.  

I think nothing will functionally be lost if I just move the turbines 3 tiles towards the middle, leaving a 2 tile wide middle column of steam. That will reduce the footprint.  Alternatively, we could add one row to each region, making this fit nicely in a 4 tile per level base. The extra space in the middle can then be used to create naptha/petro liquid locks for open access to pretty much the whole thing by dupes (whether that's good or not is another question - less dupe access means less room for dupe error). 

 

I just had a thought.  What if you put all of the liquid vents on the far side of the steam rooms, where the colder phosphorus is leaving?  Then we could have a minor counterflow effect.  It might bump up the delta a few degrees for pretty much free.

Though I don't recommend having all of the water come out of one vent, as this could cause bad flaking.  Instead, have it come out 1 vent for every 2 turbines and space out the vents 1 square.

If you did this, I would recommend moving the door to the hot side, as that side might go above 200 C.

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