Massive heat deletion/creation bug from liquid boiling -- Part 2: 20 kW from one aquatuner.

[mathmanican]

I used CO2 for the gas, at 0.1g I wanted to see if I could suck out petroleum by placing liquid over the top of the CO2 and deleting it.  If you use petro, the liquid joins the petro.  So I tried crude, and the liquid joins the crude.  So I swapped to Naptha.  Magic. 

Spoiler

The only thing that stops this from working is too high pressure on the high pressure vent.  So if you keep the liquid flow under the high pressure vent limit, then it works nonstop.  The CO2 gets completely deleted.  FYI, the Naptha needs to come in at 10g, otherwise the CO2 stays.  

Kinda Crazy!  But we can make this work.

Edit: Oh, and the vent being covered in petro is actually important. Trying to drop it a tile breaks the gas deletion and then it stops.  So you NEED petro over that gas vent. This means that it will stop working if the petro level ever falls enough that it cannot overtake the vent. nothing a door can't handle if the petro level drops too much. 

[psusi]

I'm confused.. where is the naptha and why are you bubbling CO2 into the petrol?

[OxCD]

Stop breaking the game dammit, or devs may quit ^^

[mathmanican]

14 minutes ago, psusi said:

where is the naptha and why are you bubbling CO2 into the petrol?

Naptha comes in via the liquid vent above the mesh tile at 10g/s.  CO2 comes in to the gas vent where the petro is. This enables a bypass pump to swap the liquids in the tiles, and at the same time some weird liquid mechanic grabs petro too and shoves it down to the left. I have some guesses about why it works, but can't fully explain it yet. Crude is the lowest level, and under the petro to enable the bypass pump. Naptha lies between crude and petro.

This allows petro f to move left 2 down 1. Sounds like a knight from chess!  So I guess we could call this pump the Knight's Mover. 

[psusi]

4 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Naptha comes in via the liquid vent above the mesh tile at 10g/s.  CO2 comes in to the gas vent where the petro is. This enables a bypass pump to swap the liquids in the tiles, and at the same time some weird liquid mechanic grabs petro too and shoves it down to the left. I have some guesses about why it works, but can't fully explain it yet. Crude is the lowest level, and under the petro to enable the bypass pump. Naptha lies between crude and petro.

This allows petro f to move left 2 down 1. Sounds like a knight from chess!  So I guess we could call this pump the Knight's Mover. 

I thought the naptha was just stuck in the mesh tile and the liquid vent was adding the oil.  If it is adding naptha, where is it flowing to, and where is the oil coming from?

[mathmanican]

5 minutes ago, psusi said:

I thought the naptha was just stuck in the mesh tile

Crude is in the mesh tile (to enable the bypass pump).

11 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Crude is the lowest level, and under the petro to enable the bypass pump.

 

[psusi]

So where does the naptha go after leaving the vent, and where is fresh crude being added?

[mathmanican]

2 minutes ago, psusi said:

So where does the naptha go

See here. 

3 minutes ago, psusi said:

where is fresh crude being added

None is.  This configuration is designed to just illustrate a bypass pump for draining liquid.  It is not connected to the flaker in this picture. It can be inserted into the crude flaker later. 

[Zarquan]

2 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Here is a prototype that solves all the issues I found above. It even comes equipped with doors to allow variable mass settings on the chlorine (so you can handle startups, stops, different temp incoming oil, etc.), as well as a bilge pump set to 100kg to slurp back into the system any crude that happens to slip through.  The doors could be connected to a bunch of temp sensors in the incoming crude section, and they only open when the temp gets larger, thus needing less mass to cool the crude. 

  Reveal hidden contents

It's a lot more complicated that plopping down two igneous tiles, but it does the job much more efficiently.

@Zarquan, this line from my bypass pump post might come in handy as well.  

The pump works best in a single gas environment. It does work in a multi gas environment, though if a gas cannot be pushed out of the way by the incoming liquid, then the gas is destroyed (along with the incoming liquid) at the same rate the liquid enters.

We could use a different gas, like carbon dioxide, with a 0.1 filter, and a liquid vent over the gas to delete it.  Gonna try it. 

I've created my own design.  As you can see, I put the chlorine under the crude oil, which let me easily put in a bypass pump.  At any given time, there appears to be about 15 kg of petroleum in the upper chamber at any given time.  It runs OK until the chlorine gets too cold, then a similar effect you saw occurs.  I used around 10 g/tile in the gas loop.

[mathmanican]

1 minute ago, Zarquan said:

I've created my own design.

Have you checked what happens if yours runs out of crude yet, or fails to boil on a tick?  My guess is that the crude oil will start to drain and clog stuff up. That's why I have a spill over region, with bilge pump, below mine.  

I like the design. 

[Zarquan]

10 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Have you checked what happens if yours runs out of crude yet, or fails to boil on a tick?  My guess is that the crude oil will start to drain and clog stuff up. That's why I have a spill over region, with bilge pump, below mine.  

I like the design. 

When the crude oil runs out, it fails like if the chlorine was cold.  The chlorine does not escape, but the intricate liquid placements break.  I need to find a way to turn it off.  Also, there is still a lot of heat being transferred to the crude oil.

[mathmanican]

1 minute ago, Zarquan said:

the intricate liquid placements break

That was my guess. Two layers of liquid at the bottom will probably fix things, though I'm guessing with huge pressure buildup you will start loosing over 100kg/s of crude (capped by the tunnel and max flow rate on the end of 250kg/s. My build has this issue as well with high pressure crude coming in. The triple layered Knight's Mover is way more complicated that I would ever want to build in survival, but still completely doable.   

Having an option for chlorine above or below adds great versatility. I look forward to seeing a version of yours that can be stopped and started. 

[Zarquan]

22 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

That was my guess. Two layers of liquid at the bottom will probably fix things, though I'm guessing with huge pressure buildup you will start loosing over 100kg/s of crude (capped by the tunnel and max flow rate on the end of 250kg/s. My build has this issue as well with high pressure crude coming in. The triple layered Knight's Mover is way more complicated that I would ever want to build in survival, but still completely doable.   

Having an option for chlorine above or below adds great versatility. I look forward to seeing a version of yours that can be stopped and started. 

I tried adding a bilge layer and the chlorine escaped.

22 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

The triple layered Knight's Mover is way more complicated that I would ever want to build in survival, but still completely doable.   

I'm not familiar with Knight's Mover.  Do you by any chance know where I can read about it?  Is it where you have a bypass pump with 3 stacked liquids?

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, OxCD said:

Stop breaking the game dammit, or devs may quit ^^

They've spent months (or years) on DLC.  They aren't gonna quit.  I just need to setup a Patreon account so I can provide DLC that's already in the game.  I'm guessing there is still a ton of stuff to discover in this crazy ONI universe.

22 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

the chlorine escaped

I'm sure there is a way.  For me this is why my gas vent went left instead of down. I put the pump in because I was having issues with cycling gas.  I also like the pump because it kept my chlorine mass level basically even, whereas without it, my mass level (in the same cycling loop) fluctuated all over the place. 

41 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

Do you by any chance know where I can read about it?  Is it where you have a bypass pump with 3 stacked liquids?

Yep. At the top of this page (or here).  I only gave it that silly name a few comments down, as it moves liquid two tiles left and one tile down, in the same L pattern a chess knight uses. 

[Zarquan]

50 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Yep. At the top of this page (or here).  I only gave it that silly name a few comments down, as it moves liquid two tiles left and one tile down, in the same L pattern a chess knight uses. 

Well, now I feel silly lol.  That's kind of what I was trying to do, but it collapsed and the naphtha ended up getting deleted.

[Zarquan]

My thinking is that this can't be optimized to the level of the liquid -> gas interactions.  Liquids are too thermally conductive with each other.  I hope you can prove me wrong.

I think I want to start working on another project.  I want to know how much energy I can generate from the heat of a single ice maker without space materials.  My plan is to boil aluminum or magma with the ice maker and use that to power steam turbines.  My thinking is I should stick with magma.  While I suspect I could get about twice as much power out of aluminum, not all maps have aluminum, and even fewer would have it in the quantities I would want.  But every map either has or can manufacture magma with pre-space tech.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

My plan is to boil aluminum or magma with the ice maker and use that to power steam turbines.

Devilish.  Any reason you chose the ice maker over the kiln (was it the mass difference)?  It's a truly evil plan. I love it. Do you plan to melt the building entirely?  I guess I can wait if you don't want to give spoilers.

I wonder if there is a way to abuse the 45C tile creation limit in all this.  That temperature is basically guaranteed for all built tiles, and so if we make a solid flaker that abuses this temp, mwhahaha.  Granite to magma?  Is that the plan?  I look forward to seeing this monstrosity.  

[mathmanican]

@Zarquan, I've made it way too complicated (though had fun along the way).  It's as simple as this (the vent does have to be placed one above the boil plate). The petro comes out at 676.1K (I loose 0.1K to heat transfer with the igneous tile, only because I keep it near 800K). I present

The Bead Flaker 

useful for phasing one liquid to another liquid. (I guess crude to petro, are there any other use cases?) 

The contact plate is igneous rock. The incoming crude temp is now essentially the temp you set in the pipe (almost zero thermal transfer occurs before flaking). So you set the incoming crude at 440K (or as close to 439.32K as possible, but above, I'm currently at 439.6K), make sure the heat plate stays above 676K, and almost no heat is lost from your boiler.  No fiddling with bypass pumps. No mixing of two liquids.  Just simple. 

IMPORTANT Side note. 

Flaking liquid requires 5010g of liquid, not 5000g. 

It doesn't work at 5009.9. At 5010g, if you remove the wall on the left, you'll see crude appear in 2500mg chunks, as well as see some appear in liquid drip form. However, these blobs of crude disappear on the next tick (probably because they are under the 10g limit for liquids to exist). If you want to keep the 10g, I think it could be designed in a way to prevent them from disappearing, but gets complicated.  Edit: These findings seem to contradict what I shared yesterday with bead patterns... Maybe the 10g crude transforms to petro on the next tick? I have no clue, but I do know you have to set the filter to 5010 here....

If you try to increase the rate to 10kg, you will fail with this setup (there isn't enough liquid for two flakes, and the flaking process throws stuff all over as well).  Keep your bead flakers set to 5010g. 

Spoiler

Edit: If you placed the mesh tile one higher, then you could probably get even less thermal transfer, as the mesh tile would no longer hold the heat from the hotter crude beads.  The petro never touches the mesh tile, so all you have to deal with is the conduction heat bleed from the igneous rock. Placing the mesh tile one higher means you won't hold extra heat.

Edit 2: Never mind. The tile works great where it is.  After putting it on ultra for a while, the temp never changed on the mish tile from 439.6K. 

Spoiler

[mathmanican]

On 6/4/2020 at 7:28 PM, wachunga said:

Donor Cell's New Temperature = DonorCondensation + 6 + ((5 * FlashedSHC * FlashDelta)/(DonorSHC * DonorMass)), working in C and kg.

Well, I finally got around to this one. Ummmmm. Broken. I'm pretty sure you already notice some pretty silly things. For everyone else's benefit Let's look at an example.

Every tile is 1000kg (ice, hydrogen, and petroleum).  Initial temps are 232K for ice, 300K for hydrogn, and 800K(updated) for petro. You would think the petro, connected to the hydrogen tile, should rapidly heat up the hydrogen and then melt the ice.  That's what you think....  In walks flaking. Since the hydrogen is above 275.5K (3K above ice's melting point), flaking occurs.  Using the formula above, the hydrogen resets it's temperature to 27.2K.  Wait, WHAT!  Yeah, we almost made it to absolute zero. The ice gets colder, and the hydrogen rapidly exchanges heat with the petro because of the tempshift plate.  Once the hydrogen temp rises above 275.5K, it drops again to near absolute zero.  This cyclic process continues, till the petro temp drops below 275.5K.  In this example, everything settled at 258K.  

Side notes.  Every time flaking happens, you loose 5kg of the ice tile. I'm down to 925kg on my tile, so this flaked 15 times to drop 9000kg of 800K petro down to 258K petro. Broken heat deletion. Because my build traps the flaked liquid, the newly formed 5kg of liquid actually delete 5kg of hydrogen (similar to some things that happen in bypass pumps). 

If I swap the ice tile to solid liquid oxygen, then the new reset temp is 57.4K...  You either need a robominer to dig yourself out, or make sure you tiles of liquid don't get too large.... 

 

With these flaking mechanics, I think we can build a crude to NG boiler in almost no space, and extract whatever byproduct we want at any stage....

 

[wachunga]

Nice.

So at 439.6K you are consuming  about 1/1,000 the heat you would be if the bug didn't exist. Compared to a good counterflow that gets you to within 10K of boiling, you are about 1/40 the heat. Crazy.

[mathmanican]

Just now, wachunga said:

Crazy.

Make sure you see the one I posted right before you did (I sometimes miss posts that close together). 

@Zarquan, I think there are so many different ways this topic can head, and it's probably time to start making other threads.  Each time I do, I'll put a link in this one, and have it be our central point. 

10 hours ago, OxCD said:

Stop breaking the game dammit

Well, the most recent version breaks the cooling side of the game.....  Flaking definitely needs some love by the devs.

[Zarquan]

2 hours ago, mathmanican said:

@Zarquan, I've made it way too complicated (though had fun along the way).  It's as simple as this (the vent does have to be placed one above the boil plate). The petro comes out at 676.1K (I loose 0.1K to heat transfer with the igneous tile, only because I keep it near 800K). I present

The Bead Flaker 

useful for phasing one liquid to another liquid. (I guess crude to petro, are there any other use cases?) 

The contact plate is igneous rock. The incoming crude temp is now essentially the temp you set in the pipe (almost zero thermal transfer occurs before flaking). So you set the incoming crude at 440K (or as close to 439.32K as possible, but above, I'm currently at 439.6K), make sure the heat plate stays above 676K, and almost no heat is lost from your boiler.  No fiddling with bypass pumps. No mixing of two liquids.  Just simple. 

IMPORTANT Side note. 

Flaking liquid requires 5010g of liquid, not 5000g. 

It doesn't work at 5009.9. At 5010g, if you remove the wall on the left, you'll see crude appear in 2500mg chunks, as well as see some appear in liquid drip form. However, these blobs of crude disappear on the next tick (probably because they are under the 10g limit for liquids to exist). If you want to keep the 10g, I think it could be designed in a way to prevent them from disappearing, but gets complicated.  Edit: These findings seem to contradict what I shared yesterday with bead patterns... Maybe the 10g crude transforms to petro on the next tick? I have no clue, but I do know you have to set the filter to 5010 here....

If you try to increase the rate to 10kg, you will fail with this setup (there isn't enough liquid for two flakes, and the flaking process throws stuff all over as well).  Keep your bead flakers set to 5010g. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Edit: If you placed the mesh tile one higher, then you could probably get even less thermal transfer, as the mesh tile would no longer hold the heat from the hotter crude beads.  The petro never touches the mesh tile, so all you have to deal with is the conduction heat bleed from the igneous rock. Placing the mesh tile one higher means you won't hold extra heat.

Edit 2: Never mind. The tile works great where it is.  After putting it on ultra for a while, the temp never changed on the mish tile from 439.6K. 

  Hide contents

Nice find!  I thought the beads would always be too chaotic.

I have a change on your design that appears to avoid any mass deletion.

 

When examining beads flaking in a vacuum against a wall, I found that they appear to push the original material to the adjacent tiles.  So, I put gas in those tiles and made it so that it couldn't be pushed.  Since the gas can't be pushed in any way but one, the crude oil is forced to where the mini gas pump is.  This can then be whisked away.

This requires almost every aspect of what you see.  There must be petroleum 2 tiles below the mesh tile.

Of course, this build is not an exact solution, as the mini-liquid pump will break due to the hot crude oil.

The crude oil saved is probably not worth the energy spent, but I hate losing resources.

EDIT:  Unfortunately, this build can't be run constantly.  It needs a few seconds every minute or so, as the carbon dioxide underneath is bead-pumped away.  Perhaps if it were a liquid?

EDIT 2:  Making it a liquid does not work.  I added liquid sulfur.  As soon as the bead hits the mesh tile, it swaps with the sulfur.  Flaking was dodged. 

EDIT 3:  Instead of finding a solution, I found out that in confined spaces, flaking can destroy gases.  It destroyed 5 kg of chlorine in a single tick.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

flaking can destroy gases. 

That would explain some odd things I saw today while working on the crude flaker using chlorine. I'll keep an eye out and see if it's predictable. 

[Zarquan]

18 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Devilish.  Any reason you chose the ice maker over the kiln (was it the mass difference)?  It's a truly evil plan. I love it. Do you plan to melt the building entirely?  I guess I can wait if you don't want to give spoilers.

I'm using ice makers due to their repeatability.  I can take ice, melt it, heat it, then put it back in.  I can't do this with ceramic or refined carbon.

[mathmanican]

Here's another monstrosity, that uses the hydrogen/ice combo I found yesterday. I wanted to provide a laugh for some of you before the day ends.

This little contraption no longer deletes mass.  All the ice that flakes to water is instantly frozen by the hydrogen with the help of the bridges. Incoming petro at 10kg/s is at 676K (the temp it would leave the crude flaker).  The petro that drops off the left varies from just above freezing petro (you actually get solid petro every time the hydrogen resets, and have to wait for it to melt), up to around 370K (less than 100C).  The pool of petro below averages around 308K. 

I figure with a temp sensor to detect when the hydrogen stays above 275.5C for too long (in other words, the ice has all melted), we can even get this thing to completely reset itself. As is, this setup will probably run for 100+cycles before running out of 5kg chunks of ice. 

I've got plans for an electrolyzer build that cools all oxygen coming into the base. I've already made sure 95C water from any water geyers is ready for all farms at 10-15C... Base cooling has never been easier. 

#EmbraceTheFlake