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Nedix

Which Mod makes you feel like cheating?

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Nedix    26

The title says it all and asks a potential stingy question. For me, mods are split into 4 sections:

1. Pure cosmetics - mods which have no effect on the game play, like Resculpt or any other pure UI mod

2. Functional - mods which should be integrated in vanilla, like: Pliers, Blueprints, Notepad, Airlock Door, dupes don't drop stuff etc.

3. On the brink - mods which simplify systems and mechanics or enhance functions, like: Coal synthisizer, drains, smart vents, bigger storage/reservoirs/conveyors, super capacity batteries and power wires, altering building parameters in such a way that there are only minor modifications with major impact etc. 

4. Overboard - mods which go beyond the above, like: No damage mods (power load or temp), stuff working underwater etc.

 

I don't often use #1 out of laziness. I deffo don't use #4 not because of moral principles but because they change the way the game behaves and it's intended to be played. I use #2 because I consider them helpful in the gameplay; no need to go into why one would use the Pliers or Blueprints but the Airlock Door, to me, it should be a natural progression of the technology of the game. Mind you, it is not a must but it would be a good addition to the game.

The mods I have a problem with are #3. I use some of them and sometimes I feel like cheating and sometimes I feel like the game should give us more options. A reason I don't use them often is if they crash the game and get disabled then you don't have their "product" in the game; I was using bigeer batteries mod and build several times a nice battery pack which was gone every time the game was crashing so I ended up not using it. I use the Coal synthisizer (as per ONI Workshop) because I can easily remove CO2 from the base or any other area and I don't have to bother with powering and providing some initial water to a Carbon Skimmer / Water Sieve combo. This is extremely helpful on maps where water is scarce and power generation is a bit of a hassle like Badlands or Volcanea (which I am playing quite often lately). Some other mods in this section have both useful and cheating components like increasing the Auto-Sweeper range and load, increasing the conveyor load. This is especially useful (again, to me) when you dig a massive and searing boulder and you want to get rid of the debris. On my last map, I ended up with piles of >1300 degrees obsidian, abysalite and igneous rock which, let's be serious, it would take hundreds if not thousands of cycles to clean up with the current Auto-Sweepers and conveyors. Yes, there are ways. Yes, for example, one could install a transport tube from the bottom all the way to space and have strong dupes deliver 1200kg at a time in a matter of seconds. The point I am trying to make is that there is a big gap between what the buildings can do and what the game needs you to do (or what you want to do in the game). Truth be told, on this last map I got bitterly bored only because of this cleanup. I just wanted to have a clean map and to do that I had to dig up and move all of these boulders into space because I couldn't have them touch anything due to extreme temp. So, dig them up in vacuum, build ladders everywhere, build conveyor rails system, build sweepers and loaders out of thermium, power them on, wait for some tenths of cycles, deal with the overheat, deal with mistakes which ruined the vacuum, and then start all over again somewhere else. TBH at cycle 1400 (where I am now) I've spent probably only 400 cycles on actual design, and build of systems, taming volcanoes, digging, all-in-all enjoying the game and active gameplay. I think over 1000 cycles were just waiting for stuff to be cleaned out, pools of water to be drained, vacuum to be done etc.

I don't like using mods which alter too much the game. I am torn between the feeling of cheating and the frustrations given by these nitty-gritty tasks whcih one has to actively follow through for hundreds of cycles.

 

What do you guys and girls think? Do I have a problem in understanding the game or ...? Is there something I should change? I know that some will say "don't get too neat with your base" and I get it. I know that I could reach cycle 3000 and finally have everything cleaned up. But I'm bored and frustrated already. And I have yet to build "my perfect base" the one I would use like sort of a blueprint and be proud to share it with the community. And right now, a neat and fully functional base is what I would like to have.

 

PS: sorry if this turned into a rant :)

 

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TheMule    217
2 hours ago, Nedix said:

Airlock Door

IMHO it's so cheaty it deserves a category of its own.I absolutely hate it. :)

Well, no I don't really hate it.

It's a mod than as such it's up to you to use it or not. It's like sandbox or debug mode. Nothing wrong with them. It's how people use it that drives me mad. I mean, nobody says that instabuilding of everything even with 0 material "should be in integrated in vanilla". It's a sandbox/debug tool, and no it shouldn't be in the game, because it defeats a hundred basic game mechanisms.

The same with magic airlocks. An airlock is a door that doesn't leak gas when closed. Solving gas-related problems is part of the basic mechanics of the game. Yeah it's an inconvenience because it's supposed to be. Like providing food for dups. Ranching is so hard, how about a mod that allows dups to eat rocks directly instead of having to ranch stone hatches! Oh oxygen production is so tricky, how about a mod that removes the need to breathe, dups just like critters. I hate heat management, how about a mod the removes both heat generation and heat transfer from the game?

And mind you, I've got nothing against those mods, per se. it's the claim "they should be in vanilla" that gets me.

Figuring out food production, oxygen production, heat management, atmosphere management is part of the fun. So no, any mod that makes those tasks trivial should not be in vanilla at all.

And I'm fully aware we have magical barriers that let people thru but not gasses. Like viscogel locks. That's the point: we already have ways to solve the problem, and yes it's inconvenient on purpose. The devs locked that behind the rocketry door. Creative people found ways around it (other liquid locks), good the game is about creativity. And builds. You have to build stuff yourself, standard buildings are just blocks you combine together, not standalone build and forget solutions.

I can make tons of example of mods (real or imaginary) that make life easier. How about an aquatuner that simply destroys heat? Or a building that  cools down the environment w just power. I mean having to build the typical AT/ST setup is just a pain...

Those are not QoL mods, those are 'resolve with a single click what is supposed to be a fundamental problem in the game' mods. Nothing against them but they don't belong to the vanilla game.

I'd be much more inclined to use a mod that blocks dups inside a building, waits a bit to create a vacuum, lets the dups out, waits another bit before becoming available again. Something that consumes power and has a gas output so you have to deal with that.I don't like the idea of seeing it in vanilla but definitely I'd classify that as a QoL mod. It's not cheaty if it's inconvenient enough that people with efficiency in mind would still prefer liquid locks.

3 hours ago, Nedix said:

PS: sorry if this turned into a rant :)

Likewise :)

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wronny    218
6 hours ago, Nedix said:

Pliers

If it only turned disconnecting wires / pipes from a 2-step process (deconstruct → reconstruct) into a single step, while keeping everything else the same (incl. disconnect time = deconstruct time + construct time) I could see it in that category.

Since it is instant, completely removes the duplicant interaction and doesn't drop liquids / gases from the pipe segments upon disconnecting, I'd put this mod deep into the "overboard" category.

3 hours ago, TheMule said:

It's a mod than as such it's up to you to use it or not. It's like sandbox or debug mode. Nothing wrong with them. It's how people use it that drives me mad. I mean, nobody says that instabuilding of everything even with 0 material "should be in integrated in vanilla". It's a sandbox/debug tool, and no it shouldn't be in the game, because it defeats a hundred basic game mechanisms.

Amen.

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TheMule    217
9 minutes ago, wronny said:

 I'd put this mod deep into the "overboard" category.

Actually it balances a mechanism that's already in the vanilla game. I've been constructing disconnected pipe nodes way before learning of the pliers mod. You bulld them 'just in case' or when you don't know how the piping is going to look like. You seal the room, and later, much later, you connect the nodes.

In vanilla you can connect nodes w/o any dup interaction, even in unreachable places, instantly. So the way I see it, it's either everything or nothing. Either they 'fix' vanilla and require dup interaction to connect nodes, or you allow disconnection also. An undo buttom for something you can already do. The pliers mod does that. You may like it or not, but all it does is adding a missing piece to a mechanism that is already in vanilla.

In fact, you could say that the mod would be close to useless w/o the original mechanism in place, disconnected nodes are useless unless you can reattach them later.

To me a undo button for anything that is in the game already is just a QoL module.

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Baer    49

i would not say cheating, i try to avoid things, that stole time and the only purpose to exist is to bored me.

Like the self sealing airlock. i can build an functional liquid lock. let my dupes build the stuff, carry the needed liquid over and watch the wasting of place and time. Or build some airlock and be happy on how it works. 

Or my thermoelectric generator. yes i can build a aquacooler with steam turbine and pipe all over the needed to be cooled place, i have the energy for it or i place that thing, make a little automation and forgot about it. 

For me, it is only quality of life. 

Steam says i spent over 1.300 hours in this game and i never reach temporal tear, because endgame is kinda boring to me and i try to avoid losing dupes. 

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Crapgame    18
1 hour ago, Baer said:

i would not say cheating, i try to avoid things, that stole time and the only purpose to exist is to bored me.

Like the self sealing airlock. i can build an functional liquid lock. let my dupes build the stuff, carry the needed liquid over and watch the wasting of place and time. Or build some airlock and be happy on how it works.

My thoughts exactly. Described in more detail in this QoL thread:

 

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TheMule    217
10 minutes ago, Crapgame said:

My thoughts exactly. Described in more detail in this QoL thread:

 

Don't call them airlocks then, because the whole idea is they don't allow gasses to pass as long as they are closed. Which is what vanilla airlocks do.

Call them "magical barriers that lets solids (and people) thru but not gasses for an unknown reason".  The game does have a sci-fi background but many things that actually make the gameplay are not much sci-fi, it's a game of pumps, pipes, generators and wires.With tons of shortcuts in the physics simulation which do lead some creative uses. As I said, we already have viscogel.

I mean, the idea that liquids displace gasses is something we're very familiar with. Using liquids to separate gasses is something we experience everyday in our life, even if we're not fully aware of it. E.g. everytime we flush the toilet. And yes I know that the game doesn't implement pressure right or vapor pressure but I can live with that.

And force fields are quite common in sci-fi literature. They usually block everything.

Selective force fields that let gasses thru but not solids/liquids are less common, and they make some sense, gasses are harder to catch.

Magical force fields that let people/solids thru but not gasses are very rare. And that's because they require a much bigger leap in suspension of disbelief.

It's an ok idea for a mod, but definitely something that doesn't belong to the vanilla game.

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wronny    218
47 minutes ago, TheMule said:

In vanilla you can connect nodes w/o any dup interaction, even in unreachable places, instantly.

I'd be totally fine with that also requiring a duplicant interaction, tbh. 

Then again, as far as rails & pipes are concerned I can see at least one reason why the game would treat creating and severing a connection differently: severing a connection should drop the contents from the conduit, if it holds any. Requiring the segment to be deconstructed ensures that.

Not to mention that creating and removing connections fill different roles:

  • Pre-placed unconnected conduit segments are usually part of the planed build or setup in preparation for potential problems.
  • Disconnecting conduit segments lends itself much more to being a tool that can prevent mistakes from turning into major inconveniences or worse. While being able to fix certain mistakes all on its own. It is a more reactive tool.
  • Using both in combination is more powerful than just the sum of both used in isolation.

This is one of these cases where the missing counterpart is actually what keeps things reasonably balanced. Adding the counterpart throws the balance out of the window.

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psusi    259
4 hours ago, Gurgel said:

None. It is a single-player game. Cheating is fundamentally not possible.

Open sandbox mode, build rocket, reach temporal tear by cycle 15, come post on the forums that you beat the game in only 15 cycles, and people will rightly call you a cheater.

2 hours ago, Baer said:

Like the self sealing airlock. i can build an functional liquid lock. let my dupes build the stuff, carry the needed liquid over and watch the wasting of place and time. Or build some airlock and be happy on how it works. 

Or my thermoelectric generator. yes i can build a aquacooler with steam turbine and pipe all over the needed to be cooled place, i have the energy for it or i place that thing, make a little automation and forgot about it. 

Playing the game is figuring these things out and building them in new and different ways.  Having them be reduced so a simple I win button makes me wonder why play the game at all?

That said, I wish there was a way to build a proper airlock where you have to enter, close both doors, then wait for a pump to vacuum it out before opening the other door instead of relying on liquid locks.

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Baer    49

Oh well, i see this discussion for a long time now and with long, i mean since i was a kid. That´s 30 years ago. Everyone has his one playstyle and preferences, that´s why we never find a final conclusion. i can respect that. 

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Lurve    382

Does the mod make the game more fun?  Then use the mod.

Does the mod make the game less fun?  Do not use the mod.

Does the mod make someone else's game the wrong kind of fun?  Thank you for sharing.

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Nedix    26

Many, if not all of you are right in your own right (if that makes sense). The point I was trying to make, where I was going to, is that the game sometimes becomes way too repetitive to be fun (again, at least for me). Yes, pliers is an enhancement which saves me the time to empty the pipe segment, deconstruct and reconstruct. I did this before the mod and the game was still fun. I can easily build liquid locks but on certain maps they are too sensitive to factors outside your controls (like dupes dropping a load of 1300 obsidian and flashing the lock to sour gas). Even the vysco-gel lock will either suffer the same faith or you separate something like vacuum from something which will condense (read steam) and the lock will slowly fade away.

I'm not for an easy going escape from the difficulties of the game:

10 hours ago, TheMule said:

Yeah it's an inconvenience because it's supposed to be. Like providing food for dups. Ranching is so hard, how about a mod that allows dups to eat rocks directly instead of having to ranch stone hatches! Oh oxygen production is so tricky, how about a mod that removes the need to breathe, dups just like critters. I hate heat management, how about a mod the removes both heat generation and heat transfer from the game?

I have two other threads with the difficulties I encountered on the current map. I the first thread (Catch 22 on Volcanea) I was almost about to quit the map but thanks to the great ONI community I pushed through. With the 2nd thread I realized I didn't consider a minor yet important detail with my shove vole ranching and I corrected it also with the help of the community. I like a challenge but doing the same repetitive tasks for hundreds of cycles is killing all the fun for me. For example, I'm frustrated by the fact that I have to spend way too much time using the current tools (like sweeping hundreds/thousands of tons of >1300 deg debris) instead of focusing on what I consider the actual challenges of the game.

My train of thoughts with the entire thread was to understand the community's view on mods and most importantly where do the community people draw a line and say "this mod gives an unfair advantage over the intended gameplay".

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Gurgel    1746
6 hours ago, psusi said:

Open sandbox mode, build rocket, reach temporal tear by cycle 15, come post on the forums that you beat the game in only 15 cycles, and people will rightly call you a cheater.

Now that is lying (which anybody can also do directly, no need to even run the game for that) but it is not cheating. I do see your point however. When you start claiming certain accomplishments it becomes more than single-player.

Claiming such accomplishments is a difficult thing in any single-player game in principle though. There is no reliable way to prove anything, except maybe a full recording or something like that. 

5 hours ago, Baer said:

Oh well, i see this discussion for a long time now and with long, i mean since i was a kid. That´s 30 years ago. Everyone has his one playstyle and preferences, that´s why we never find a final conclusion. i can respect that. 

Yes, me too. Seems to be something important for some people. I rather go with the scientific approach here: Point out something, some idea or some strategy or style in a way others can replicate it. That eliminates "cheating" (or rather lying) pretty reliably.

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