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safakhan

There is 4kw tranformer but there is no 4kw wire

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safakhan    1

There is 4kw tranformer  but there is no 4kw wire

Or add 2kw transformer for 2kw wires. Cant set my electric distribution healty cos of this. Thanks.

Or someone tell how to do this with 4 kw...

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axxionx12    98

I never understood this concern... You could still overload a 2kw transformer as well since it has internal power that could still cause the circuit to overload if you exceed 2kw. The 4kw power ensures that game lag  doesn't cause the small amount stored power to drain and shut off the whole circuit for a second at a time 

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Badpip    34

If you want you electric distribution to don't cause overload, all building after the transformer must consume less than 2kw  or put 1kw transformer with 2kw wire but some buildings won't work all the time

I think devs want us to experience overload even with transformers  if we don't do things correctly  and thats why we dont have 4kw wire with 4kw transformers it's a thing that i don't like in this game and who can be a little bit confusing with beginners but it's not my game it's klei game it's up to them  to choose what is good for their game

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BaZERGer    11

It defies logic, creating a problem where none needs to be, nor logically should be.

At least you can do double regular transformer, but it takes a little more space, and generates double the heat.

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ZanthraSW    49
18 hours ago, axxionx12 said:

I never understood this concern... You could still overload a 2kw transformer as well since it has internal power that could still cause the circuit to overload if you exceed 2kw. The 4kw power ensures that game lag  doesn't cause the small amount stored power to drain and shut off the whole circuit for a second at a time 

They changed transformers sometime back and made it so that 1k transformers cannot overload 1k wire even with the internal power. Similarly, if you use 2x 1k transformers to run a 2k wire, it won't overload. There is no reaoson to believe a 2k transformer would overload a 2k wire.

Using 2 parallel 1k transformers is the best solution available at the moment.

Note there are some nice uses for 4k transformers to create a 1 way path for power from and to heavy watt wire. For example a very large battery bank charged by solar, and use transformers to power the main grid. That prevents the battery leakage from affecting the efficiency of on demand power from hydrocarbons or steam generators, while allowing a large amount of solar power to be buffered.

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SackMaggie    162

Well, I thought about that too and I wonder what the reason for 4k transformer.
Since we have a lot of automation now, how about adjustable transformer? This should fix every problem but create (player)manual labor instead.

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nakomaru    1628

What to do with heavies? Run up to 12 heavies per power plant and deliver it to your battery switching backbone. Much less use for smalls tbh.

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reccurentz    4

I just install a mod to change it. There are essentially two choices:

  1. Medium Transformers (Adds a 2k transformer) 
  2. 4k wire (Changes conductive wire to 4k)

Personally, I like the 4k wire; since having more transformers types seems pointless. I don't feel like these mods make or break the game outside having a few less transformers (ie. heat generation) and keeps my builds cleaner.

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cezarica    507

If you need 2kW of power then tie two 1kW transformers in parallel with a 2kW wire and from the output where you need the up to 2kW power.

tie.png

As for the 4kW transformer, I'd go with what @SamLogan suggested.

@ZanthraSW The "advantage" is that the 4KW transformer doesn't protect your 1kW or 2kW wire from overloading (meaning drawing more power than the wire can handle), but the 1kW or two 1kW transformers in parallel will protect the wire, meaning the 1kW wire for 1 transformer or the 2kW wire for the two 1kW transformers in parallel.

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psusi    259

Just don't put more than 2kw of load on the wire.  Even if you use 2 1k transformers so you can't overload the wire, you will brown out some of the machines instead and that isn't very good either.

 

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BaZERGer    11

I'd rather have a brownout than either risk overloading wires, or wasting transformer capacity on on-paper usage of uncommonly used buildings. Much easier to just split them up if a problem starts occuring.

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ZanthraSW    49
1 hour ago, BaZERGer said:

I'd rather have a brownout than either risk overloading wires, or wasting transformer capacity on on-paper usage of uncommonly used buildings. Much easier to just split them up if a problem starts occuring.

Yeah I agree, it definitely depends on what it is being powered. Running doors, exosuit docks, and other safe stuff off a circuit with more than 2k max consumption seems fine. It's rare they are all opening or closing at the same time as every suit is filling. If a door browns out, it still opens, just slower. If the exosuit dock browns out, there is still oxygen in the suit and 5 other suits.

Other things like O2 production, or time critical ventilation, pumping or automation all get lines that are within the 2k limit.

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reccurentz    4
On 4/12/2020 at 10:39 AM, SamLogan said:

pw1.thumb.png.1e7f0d8d99e42c59d0eb99b5f2671a6a.png

 

13 hours ago, cezarica said:

If you need 2kW of power then tie two 1kW transformers in parallel with a 2kW wire and from the output where you need the up to 2kW power.

tie.png

As for the 4kW transformer, I'd go with what @SamLogan suggested.

@ZanthraSW The "advantage" is that the 4KW transformer doesn't protect your 1kW or 2kW wire from overloading (meaning drawing more power than the wire can handle), but the 1kW or two 1kW transformers in parallel will protect the wire, meaning the 1kW wire for 1 transformer or the 2kW wire for the two 1kW transformers in parallel.

I think he meant that 4 x 1kW transformers will never pull more then 4kW. Why put a 4kW transformer in front of them if you are still forced to use heavy watt wire? This is why not having 4kW wire makes the large transformer kinda limiting. It is only useful if you wanted to put 5~20x 1kW transformers in front of it with a battery bank for buffering and limit 4kW pull.

The real question is what are the preferred ways to create 2kW circuits?

  • 4kW transformer and make sure you only have 2kW pull from consumers
    • What is the benefit of the 4kW transformer here outside of making a circuit? That transformer could be 20kW and still function the same way in this scenario
  • 2kW transformer (if it existed) or 2x 1kW transformers and allow brownouts
  • 1kW transformer + battery on the low side, which allows constant 1kW power with 2kW burst

They should just change the large transformer to 2kW or change conductive wire to 4kW gauge.

I personally think the large transformer is an artifact on how power was suppose work when first developed (ie. 4 ticks per second) and should be changed given how transformers work now.

 

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psusi    259
2 hours ago, BaZERGer said:

I'd rather have a brownout than either risk overloading wires, or wasting transformer capacity on on-paper usage of uncommonly used buildings. Much easier to just split them up if a problem starts occuring.

I suppose if you have to choose between the two, a brownout is better than an overload, but why accept either?  Just limit your loads to 2 kw and forget about the excess capacity of the transformer.  It still costs half as much metal as 2 1kw transformers, so just be glad you're saving some metal... and it uses less space.  Also don't forget that if you are using a battery flipper, you can transfer 4kw over 2kw conductive wire to charge the batteries without overload.

26 minutes ago, reccurentz said:

1kW transformer + battery on the low side, which allows constant 1kW power with 2kW burst

Except you still need to limit loads to 2kw or you will overload the wire.  And if you are going to do that you may as well use a 4kw transformer and forget about the battery.

 

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reccurentz    4
1 hour ago, psusi said:

I suppose if you have to choose between the two, a brownout is better than an overload, but why accept either?  Just limit your loads to 2 kw and forget about the excess capacity of the transformer.  It still costs half as much metal as 2 1kw transformers, so just be glad you're saving some metal... and it uses less space.  Also don't forget that if you are using a battery flipper, you can transfer 4kw over 2kw conductive wire to charge the batteries without overload.

Except you still need to limit loads to 2kw or you will overload the wire.  And if you are going to do that you may as well use a 4kw transformer and forget about the battery.

 

Correct, but it helps limit the burst on your backbone. Comparing to a battery bank on the high side, the low side batteries are better since you are limiting power competition per circuit and not on your whole grid. You can also use automation to turn off a set of consumers within this circuit if the battery drain gets to low to avoid brown outs on high priority consumers.

edit:

You also have the benefit of using 2kW wire on the high side if you only plan to use 2x 1kW transformers.

Battery flippers are its own beast, and pretty much negates transformers and heavy watt wires if you go that route.

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KittenIsAGeek    1557

I think this issue comes up because many players don't really want to think about what they're doing.  They don't want to consider how they're distributing power -- they just want to add another building without worrying about any consequences.

So they use a transformer to help solve the problem of bad planning.  A small transformer can only allow 1kw of power, so even though you have 2500 watts of consumers, you're never going to damage that wimpy regular wire.  Unless you built a battery on that wire.  Anyway, it just strikes me as odd that you would rather have a building fail from a lack of power than think about how to design the power grid so that your consumers match your wire load.

The big benefit of transformers is that it allows you to isolate power grids from other grids.  CAN you use them to limit power?  Certainly -- because the transformers have their own limitations.  The problem I have with this line of thinking is that you're basically saying "I'd rather have a building fail to power up than burn out a wire."  Why are those your two options?  In my apartment, if I turn on my oven does that mean my fridge doesn't have enough power to keep my food cold?  Why not plan out how you are running power in your base such that your consumers match up with the rating of the wire?

I will point out that quite frequently I have more consumers than my wires can handle.  For example, I'll have a regular wire that shows a total potential load of 1500 watts (or similar).  But my average use is often around 500 watts and the peak use is around 800 watts.  The potential for 1500 watts is impossible to hit because some buildings are exclusive.  I've actually considered the worst-case scenario on that particular line and its 980 watts.  So it wouldn't matter if I used a large transformer on that line, because burnout wouldn't be a thing anyway.

So, the complaint that a large transformer handles 4kw but conductive wire only handles 2kw is somewhat confusing to me.  You're expecting that the ONLY purpose of a transformer is to prevent your wires from burning out.  The purpose of a transformer is to isolate one power grid from another -- which consequently CAN be used to prevent burnout in some situations.  However, because a transformer isolates grids, you can use it to push power from a generator substation out onto your main grid.  This can be useful for things like setting up a hamster-wheel power room that doesn't get a dupe or two stuck on the wheel forever.

 

tl;dr: The function of a transformer is to isolate one power grid from another.  It isn't to prevent a wire from burning out -- even though they can be used in that way.

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psusi    259
17 hours ago, reccurentz said:

Correct, but it helps limit the burst on your backbone. Comparing to a battery bank on the high side, the low side batteries are better since you are limiting power competition per circuit and not on your whole grid. You can also use automation to turn off a set of consumers within this circuit if the battery drain gets to low to avoid brown outs on high priority consumers.

Yea, but who cares about that?  Are you really worried about overloading your heavy watt backbone?  And rather than shut machines off because their underpowered local circuit is low on power, why not just build enough generators so that they can all kick in during peak load and keep everything running?

17 hours ago, reccurentz said:

You also have the benefit of using 2kW wire on the high side if you only plan to use 2x 1kW transformers.

You mean if you build a 2kw conductive backbone to supply only two different branch circuits that each have a single 1kw transformer to couple them?  That's a pretty tiny power grid.  I'd say you would be better off skipping the backbone and just putting a generator on each of the two branch circuits.

17 hours ago, reccurentz said:

Battery flippers are its own beast, and pretty much negates transformers and heavy watt wires if you go that route.

They don't negate transformers and don't necessarily negate all heavy watt wire depending on how you use them.  I once used a heavy watt backbone in the core of my base, but needed to set up a remote sub station far away, so I used a 4kw transformer on the backbone to push power into a 2kw wire that ran off to the remote site where I put a battery flipper.  These days I like to build transformer flipper power stations that still need to use a transformer or two to export the battery charge onto the 1 kw wire backbone.

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ZanthraSW    49
6 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I think this issue comes up because many players don't really want to think about what they're doing.  They don't want to consider how they're distributing power -- they just want to add another building without worrying about any consequences.

So they use a transformer to help solve the problem of bad planning.  A small transformer can only allow 1kw of power, so even though you have 2500 watts of consumers, you're never going to damage that wimpy regular wire.  Unless you built a battery on that wire.  Anyway, it just strikes me as odd that you would rather have a building fail from a lack of power than think about how to design the power grid so that your consumers match your wire load.

The big benefit of transformers is that it allows you to isolate power grids from other grids.  CAN you use them to limit power?  Certainly -- because the transformers have their own limitations.  The problem I have with this line of thinking is that you're basically saying "I'd rather have a building fail to power up than burn out a wire."  Why are those your two options?  In my apartment, if I turn on my oven does that mean my fridge doesn't have enough power to keep my food cold?  Why not plan out how you are running power in your base such that your consumers match up with the rating of the wire?

I will point out that quite frequently I have more consumers than my wires can handle.  For example, I'll have a regular wire that shows a total potential load of 1500 watts (or similar).  But my average use is often around 500 watts and the peak use is around 800 watts.  The potential for 1500 watts is impossible to hit because some buildings are exclusive.  I've actually considered the worst-case scenario on that particular line and its 980 watts.  So it wouldn't matter if I used a large transformer on that line, because burnout wouldn't be a thing anyway.

So, the complaint that a large transformer handles 4kw but conductive wire only handles 2kw is somewhat confusing to me.  You're expecting that the ONLY purpose of a transformer is to prevent your wires from burning out.  The purpose of a transformer is to isolate one power grid from another -- which consequently CAN be used to prevent burnout in some situations.  However, because a transformer isolates grids, you can use it to push power from a generator substation out onto your main grid.  This can be useful for things like setting up a hamster-wheel power room that doesn't get a dupe or two stuck on the wheel forever.

 

tl;dr: The function of a transformer is to isolate one power grid from another.  It isn't to prevent a wire from burning out -- even though they can be used in that way.

You sound surprised that balancing power grids in this game is not the most exciting part to some players. :) Additionally, bad planning should be expected with newer players, as they have no idea what they should be planning for. It certainly does not strike me as odd. There are many playstyles.

I would also argue that the transformer's purpose is definitely not to isolate power grids. Not connecting them at all does that just fine without the transformer. The purpose is almost always because one wants to connect cheaper or more flexible 1k or 2k wire to power distribution on 20k wire, without the total load serviced by the 20k wire overloading the smaller wire. There are other uses, but that is the common use for it.

 

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psusi    259
1 minute ago, ZanthraSW said:

I would also argue that the transformer's purpose is definitely not to isolate power grids. Not connecting them at all does that just fine without the transformer.

Perhaps isolate isn't the best word here ( but I don't know of a better one ).  You don't want two entirely separate grids, what you want is two grids that are partially connected.  i.e. exactly what you allude to here:

3 minutes ago, ZanthraSW said:

The purpose is almost always because one wants to connect cheaper or more flexible 1k or 2k wire to power distribution on 20k wire, without the total load serviced by the 20k wire overloading it.

 

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MarcinW    39

I also was wondering about 4kW transformers but it made sense in late game, when I didn't had enough refined metal for 50kW Heavi-Watt Conductive Wire to join them directly to 1kW transformers as I had with 20kW Heavi-Watt wires.

Upgrading power grid after my main power plant output was over 20kW was challenge and real fun :) I Love it! Giving direct transformers to cables wouldn't be so challenging.

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TheMule    193
On 4/14/2020 at 8:58 AM, KittenIsAGeek said:

tl;dr: The function of a transformer is to isolate one power grid from another.  It isn't to prevent a wire from burning out -- even though they can be used in that way.

Not referred to @KittenIsAGeek in particular, but to everyone.

We shouldn't argue over transformers purposes, those depend on our playstyle and different people can use them to achieve different goals. So there's not point singling out one of the functions as "the one".

A transformer has several functions (objective list):

- circuit separation: clearly high and low circuits are separated (different consumers/generator/battieries)

- transfer energy in a specific direction: expressed by the arrow in the graphics, from high to low. To be more precise, it acts as a consumer on the high circuit and as a generator in the low circuit

- there's a small internal battery

- limit the flow, or rather, having limited power as generator on the lower circuit

- produce heat (w/o any power consumption/runoff)
- it can be controlled with automation (so basicly like a switch)

For example, if people build a tons of them to collect (free) heat with a steam turbine that's a totally legitimate thing to do.

 

Now, you can use the limited power output to distribute energy from a backbone heavy wire to local ones. I think the question from OP is: why there's no a 2kW transformer? Or a 20kw one? Why 4kW?

I tend to agree that 4kW makes little sense.

For the 1kW transformer all the above functions have a direct expression in gameplay, when you connect a 1kW wire on the low end. It does all of the above, as is.

The 4kW variant falls short when you connect either a 2kW or a 20kW to the low end, one of the functions (current limiting) does not match the wire specs. That's a fact. It's like having a heavy pump capable of 40kg/s with one output but only heavy pipes that can transport 20kg/s. It's a mismatch, with no justification at all, since a 2kW or 20kW transformer would perform all the other functions just as well.

What I don't agree with is that the problem is always powergrid design. There are totally legitimate cases of grids on which the usual load is low but spikes can happen. I have 6 atmosuit docks 5 loaders 5 sweepers on one 1kW wire. Chances that it overloads are slim, but the real point here is that micro brownouts aren't a problem, so there's no real need for separated grids. You can tolerate a loader not sending a egg on the rail for 2 seconds.

Even relatively critical equipment can tolerate occasional brownouts. The 10kg/s liquid pump that feeds your 2 electrolyzers, albeit mission critical, doesn't mind brownouts because it isn't working full time anyway and it can catch up very quickly (and water in the pipe is a several seconds worth of a buffer). So putting that on the same wire (protected by a 1kW tranformer) isn't a problem. The same applies to the sieve for your bathroom water loop, or the sieve and carbon skimmers for CO2 removal.

Actually most buildings in a base fall into that category. They operate on demand, and if they can't run now, they'll run in 2 seconds. The exceptions are dup operated ones (you don't want a brownout to interrupt the dup's job). So, skill scrubbers, grills, gas ranges, incubators, most recreational buildings and the like should be protected from brownouts. They call for separate grids, designed with max cuncurrent usage in mind.

Point is there's nothing wrong in relaying on a wattage cap as a feature of your powergrid to even out load.

Right now, if you're using the 2kW wire, you have to use 2 1kW transformer for that function.

A more complex way is to use wattage sensors and filters. A 240W pump can be activated if wattage is < 1760W. You can set priorities, use 0.3s filters for tier 1 equipment, 0.6s for tier 2 and so on. It's cumbersome but more flexible than two transformers.

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psusi    259
38 minutes ago, TheMule said:

The 4kW variant falls short when you connect either a 2kW or a 20kW to the low end, one of the functions (current limiting) does not match the wire specs. That's a fact. It's like having a heavy pump capable of 40kg/s with one output but only heavy pipes that can transport 20kg/s. It's a mismatch, with no justification at all, since a 2kW or 20kW transformer would perform all the other functions just as well.

Except that the wire actually can carry the full 4kw when it is charging a battery.  Also there is a one or two second forgiveness window where you can overload the wire without damage.  In my last world I tried to automate 3 different ATs used to cool the turbines and liquify hydrogen and oxygen so that only one of them was allowed to run at a time.  If two of them tried to turn on at exactly the same time it resulted in both of them toggling on and off every other second, causing a 1 second overload on the wire, but it never damaged the wire.  Once I even saw all 3 try to switch on at exactly the same time and so all 3 kept toggling on and off.  That was 3600 watts on the line, pulsing on and off.

Also of course, the output side of the transformer can be heavy watt wire.

45 minutes ago, TheMule said:

A more complex way is to use wattage sensors and filters. A 240W pump can be activated if wattage is < 1760W. You can set priorities, use 0.3s filters for tier 1 equipment, 0.6s for tier 2 and so on. It's cumbersome but more flexible than two transformers.

Or you can use a memory toggle to make sure that between two pumps, only one of them is allowed to run at a time.

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