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JackieMacrois

Realism in ONI database, fact check and is it worth it ?

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Hi, i don’t know why i do this now and not 1 year ago, but i always feel little suspicious with some value in database and also glad some are science base like water, so I concluded that dev want that kind of realism.
Cause i’m the kind of person who like classification and math so i want to fact-check the value of materials in game, mostly conductivity and capacity and obviously it took longer than i expected but here it is.

The first goal is that i’m in project to update wikipedia with those value and it was a good test if i could make some science digging right or not, and in what time, but now it’s a table nearly fully check.

Values are 95% double or triple check with independent sources mostly to not make mistake with unit, conversion and chemical formation (like aluminum ore in rock vs perfect crystal). I keep value for the most reliable source, but most of the time it was very close, especially for pure chemical and some are theoretical value (mostly pure really hot fluid) but still fitting with some observation. Also few values needed special research like difference between brine and salt water or solid hydrogen which is a big debate in community.

I have some trouble finding with some extreme material (for some reason nobody use steel gas IRL), and some stuff i couldn’t tell if there are The good material like bleach stone or rust, I keep with some hypothesis and I searched for substitution or just let as "immaginary cool stuff".
I make lot of comment in the table if i’m not sure or dispute in science paper. If there is no comment it’s highly probable that I have double-triple check.
Also maybe I made mistake so feel free to fact-check or complete something.

If it’s apply to the game so :

Almost half or more values have a big change (+-50%) but a lot of change are not really for useful component (very hot, cold stuff), except:

  • Hydrogen have more capacity (x5 in capacity)* (so do hydrogen vent).
  • Liquid oxygen is way less conductive.
  • Metal volcano have more heat (with liquid phase part almost) and rock volcano easier and CO2 geyser more cold.
  • Steam is way less conductive and carry less heat**.
  • Some metals and most of ore are more conductive (like x10).
  • Rocks are more similar in capacity (almost 1) but still have a range for conductivity (1 to 3).


I thing it would be fine with that, almost better experience at most change, for all i could immagine now i'm just mixed with hydrogen gas cause volcano with thermofan could be too easier.
I can’t tell is it’s would be needed to make lot of tuning, nerf some value or not, also i’m curious about some explanation why game mechanics would be mess up or not and have in mind that some ajustement can be made like heat output from machine or temperature of geyser, but less work it will took, the better***.


I thought that ONI is a great game to learn some science specially if it’s not intrusive and feed the gameplay like Klei wonderfully did, and with the cost is really low to have more realism with those value.
I would find cool if some where updated, or a idea for a mod (i’m looking to learn that but i don’t know time it will take from scratch)
Or maybe I’m just to nerdy to like some science reference when it don’t interfere with projects.

If you need detail, or values for other material for next updates or for mod feel free to contact me, or dig up with the sources, I like doing that kind of stuff when I have some spare time.

So do you think it would be worth it, or better or not ?
File: OniMaterialCheckV1.ods

Note:
*With that 3 hydrogen-thermofan = 1 water-aquatuner. Nearly 200kDTU/s can be move per fan.
** I guest if IRL steam are more dangerous that oxygen at same temp it’s because it liquify on the body and then is 30 time more conductive but ONI don’t have dup like material they can’t liquify steam around, and then if, the dup is on a ladder will not be affected, by liquid water that sink bellow. But 100°C oxygen still really dangerous so I guest it most case will have the same heat wound running in steam than oxygen.
***I’m conscious that I suggested stuff optional and maybe not really worth it, for dev to explore so I try to keep the easier as possible.

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KittenIsAGeek    1459

While this sort of thing would be nice, I don't think its very useful.  ONI only vaguely follows real-world physics. For example, ONI does not model pressures.  Instead, it assumes "pressure" based in the amount of mass within a tile in order to do things like break tiles or prevent vents from working.  This is very obvious if you place ice in a vacuum.  In real-world physics, the ice should sublimate into water vapor.  This will both break the vacuum and remove heat from the ice until a pressure/temperature equilibrium is reached preventing further sublimation.

Similarly, gasses and liquids don't exactly separate naturally in the real world.  Certainly, there is some separation, such as oil and water, but our atmosphere is a reasonably stable mixture consisting mostly of nitrogen.  The "lack of oxygen" at very high elevations is not because the oxygen is sinking below other gasses, but instead because the atmospheric pressure is too low -- at least until you're getting into the 100km+ elevations.  Generally this keeps oxygen at about 20% of the total atmosphere which brings us to yet another problem...

Actual chemical reactions.  In ONI, we flood our bases with Oxygen.  In the real world, this would almost immediately react with just about every other element present causing catastrophic failure of your base.  Bad Things(tm) (unless you're Michael Bay) tend to happen when the percentage of oxygen in the air rises above 30%.  Using the rock crusher to extract pure metals from their ores essentially creates metal dust -- explosively reactive in pure oxygen at room temperature.  Metal tiles, mesh tiles, and any other structures made from metal would corrode at incredible rates.  Plants, critters, dupes, and anything else organic would spontaneously combust... the list goes on.

There are also problems with many of the materials we use in ONI.  A good example of this is gold amalgam -- which isn't exactly a Thing.  The "amalgamation of gold" is a process that uses mercury to extract gold from its ore.  Generally this is done by crushing the rock that contains gold and using mercury to 'mop up' the bits of gold.  You can't exactly build anything solid with a liquid, yet we use "gold amalgam" to build things in ONI.  Second, gold isn't a good metal for industrialization.  You certainly CAN build things like gold pipes, but like lead they lack structural rigidity making them inadequate for load-bearing, structural, or mechanical things.  In other words, building a natural gas generator out of gold is .. problematic.  When we use gold as a conductor, its generally plated onto another substance, but that isn't how we do things in ONI.  Another example of a problematic material is water.  In the real world, solid water (ice) is less dense than liquid water.  If you cool a pool down, the surface freezes long before the bottom of the pool. Additionally, there is enthalpy involved in the transitions between solid, liquid, and gas.  It takes a LOT of energy to boil liquid water into steam.  During the process, the water will not raise above the boiling point because instead the energy is going into freeing the water into vapor form.  In ONI, however, you only must apply the heat energy necessary to bring the liquid water to about 5c above its boiling point -- then presto! You have steam. Also, in ONI, if you cool down a pool of water, it will first freeze at the point where the heat is removed, so you can freeze a pool from the center out, or from the bottom up.  I've found it difficult to reliably freeze only the surface of a pool in ONI.  It isn't impossible, but it isn't nearly as simple as in the real world.

 

Anyway, the point I'm making here is that the materials are only somewhat related to the real world.  Since only some of the properties are modeled, and since they're only modeled in a simplified way, it makes it difficult to compare with the real world in any way other than "vague."  Adding to the problem is that the materials have been balanced for working in ONI.  Chlorine should sink below CO2, natural gas (methane) should float above O2, water should freeze from the top down, and it should take a lot more effort to boil water into steam than it takes to cool it back down to water.

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First, thanks for taking time with this.
I totally agree ONI is not a full simulation and never will be, there are enought complexity in physics mecanics for example in my opinion ice flooting will be time consuming for the team for no real use. Also i read that a lot of people find the game already too complex.

Don't get me wrong if i could see ONI use navier stokes equation in calculation i will be happy but clearly not worth it. For all you cited i have a lot think, if latent heat enthalpy will be nice or not, and in a way the new turbine introduce something, in a way closer to rankine cycle and i like the new more for that, and i will like more is a correct rankine cycle was use, but maybe not worth it for dev and for us.
Btw i would be happy to make a collective, stupidly long, discution/table about the science could be implemented or not and comment about if it is worth it or not.

To be honest the thing that push me to start a test with ONI was the same conductivity value between material with different phase, so the more i dig into science paper and database, the more i realise that some work have been done to be more acurate as possible with those values but i realize those values are not all easy to find, it's time consuming and i thought that the dev prefer to just leave this and work about some more important. (like why the hydrogen gaz capacity is the only capacity in imperial unit that as not been converted to SI unit ?)

I don't agree about fine tunning those value, it was more than a year that i play ONI and i don't have seen those value move, some where added with new material like aluminum but nothing change and the game have change a lot since. I would say that a lot of more robust solution have been found, the new turbine is a good example of that.
Or aluminum have high conductivity but copper is IRL better, and i thought maybe dev was a little suspicious about high conductivity back introduced refined copper, but now with isulated tile i found a lot better with high conductive stuff.

So the point i want to made is restrain to the database value mostly conductivity and capacity, not adding other mecanics, but i will be happy to talk about that in other discution.
Also one point you've take and that's the thing i don't know, is about "what do we learn with ONI?" ONI does get a sens of understanding some mechanics like conductivity and in a way whatever the value of material, cause you don't feel the same way IRL anyway cause of convection or other physics that's not in the game. But still we have copper or diamond that are less conductive than aluminium (so why my computer heat sink have copper base and aluminum fin ?), and yey gold amalgam >.> ... And beside imaginary stuff, i thought that the all thing is just partialy accurate for no real reason, and it will cost a little (?) To do some ajustement (still if it's not broking the game and that's what i want to figure first before really propose the idea).

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KittenIsAGeek    1459
12 minutes ago, JackieMacrois said:

like why the hydrogen gaz capacity is the only capacity in imperial unit that as not been converted to SI unit ?

I don't understand.  Which value are you referring to?  Specific Heat Capacity?  To what imperial unit are you referring?  I don't see any.

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14 minutes ago, JackieMacrois said:

Or aluminum have high conductivity but copper is IRL better, and i thought maybe dev was a little suspicious about high conductivity back introduced refined copper, but now with isulated tile i found a lot better with high conductive stuff.

Again, I'm not quite following.  Maybe I'm just tired or something, but I can't seem to make sense of your sentences.

16 minutes ago, JackieMacrois said:

 "what do we learn with ONI?" 

If I've learned anything from ONI, its that dupes are about as smart as sheep.  They dig a hole, then build the floor and get themselves trapped. Or they jump up onto a ledge instead of jumping down to the floor and get stranded up too high to get down.  

I've also learned that it helps to consider how something can be used other than its "expected" intent.  For example, a door isn't a door -- its a heat-transfer device, or a gas pump, or a liquid redistribution unit useful for quickly drowning hatches.  A light bulb isn't for producing light -- it a low-grade continual heat production unit that is a great way to cook your bristlebloom farms.  

Honestly, you can't really compare to real science except vaguely.  I'd love to see a downtown art studio use sand in their air purifiers to produce clay, which they turn into art and stick it in a kiln to turn it into ceramic.  Talk about the ultimate in recycling: Polluted downtown air turns into clean air and art!

 

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pacovf    698
2 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Actual chemical reactions.  In ONI, we flood our bases with Oxygen.  In the real world, this would almost immediately react with just about every other element present causing catastrophic failure of your base.  Bad Things(tm) (unless you're Michael Bay) tend to happen when the percentage of oxygen in the air rises above 30%.

IIRC, the important thing is the oxygen partial pressure. So 30% is only dangerous at standard atmospheric pressure and above. As an example, the cabin of the Apollo Service Module was filled with pure oxygen at one third standard pressure. The only danger was then they had to fill it up to standard pressure or more when on Earth (they stopped doing that after the first fire).

All this to say, we don't know if pure oxygen should be dangerous in ONI, because we don't know what the pressures involved are.

Edited by pacovf
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  • For hydrogen, the only capacity who has 2.4 value is the isochoric capacity (Cv) in Btu/pound/F. They keep 2.4 but change the unit, in SI unit it's 10.16 J/g/K and that's Cv not Cp almost all other gas value are Cp (isobaric).
  • Sorry maybe my english, i agree that was better in my head, and clearly i'm bad at talking to people, sorry about that.
    I hypotesis that before aluminum was introduce there was no conductive higher than 80 so i suggest maybe conductivity was a issue back in earlier version, and now we have high conductive 205 with aluminium, so i suggest that now why copper shouldn't have is 400 value ? but maybe as always my hypothesis is wrong. All this was just to illustrate that value are old and maybe the reason of the nerf is not a reason now.

 

Also if you don't see the point i want to make, that's ok and an anwser to my question too, like i said maybe i'm too "nerdy" with classification.

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pacovf    698

DTUs are made up energy units that the devs use for temperature calculations, to hide the fact there’s no energy conservation with heat-producing electricity-consuming buildings. They’re neither SI nor imperial.

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For now i will go with the hypothesis that DTU is just joule and like you said there is no conservation and that's confused so DTU is just to don't mess up with brain to much between electric stuff and thermal stuff.

I found than somewhere 50% of the value in database are correct value in J/g/K and W/m/K so SI, water and oxygen gas wich are the most important element are correct value in SI ... So unless exception that mostly are hydrogen capacity and steam conductivity that i couln't tell the not IRL value was a mistake or intentional.
Also i remember discussion about that in the forum like december 2018 and maybe i miss the one who tell DTU is not Joule, but i saw other people have this conclusion.
Seams indicate that DTU is J or at least kinda. But if you can source the discussions or proof that i'm wrong i want to know that.
I know that there are no conservation in nearly all case, and that's ok, but i didn't see why this make DTU not Joule, or not "mostly joule".

Building are essentialy in ONI diegesis so you could make whatever, and i thought that a clever way to keed control and make ajustement in the game. I saw more material like the building block you don't really touch in dev and building the constant variable you ajust to make the game actualy work.

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pacovf    698

Liquid tepidizer produces 4064 kDTU/s of heat, while consuming 960 W of electricity. That’s 4233 times more heat than it should, if 1 DTU = 1 J. It’s an extreme case, but all heat producers generate somewhere around 1000 DTU per J. 
 

If you decide to accept that there is no conservation of energy when heat is involved, then there’s no way to convert DTU into J, and so the conversion factor is irrelevant.

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Gurgel    1486

Remember this is a game, not a physics simulation. It may be physics-inspired in places, but that is it. The list where things do not match physics is pretty much endless. I have no idea why some people have trouble with that. 

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First thanks, i might miss something about how i explain thing, yeah DTU was introduce to not melt brain between electrical, and thermal. But i still searching if you keep thermal mechanics only. (like long time ago)



I don't know why the argument that, at least one point on ONI is not scientific base, therefore it's useless that some could be inspired or better inspired, is so important. I don't advocate for a lot of change, just some consistancy in a small part of the game and specialy in a part of some people spend time to do so.

Maybe i should take it with street epistemology method and ask question, like is it on purpose that value in database are the way there are ? and why some work have been done to be close to science values ?

In case i don't reply after, have a nice day everyone and thanks to have tried something.

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Chintam    29
1 hour ago, JackieMacrois said:

like is it on purpose that value in database are the way there are ? and why some work have been done to be close to science values ?

What most likely happened was that originally they used the correct material properties but then had to change certain values to prevent the game from being broke. 

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