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blash365    629

Not too long ago (see link below) the issue about a missing reset port on the counter was raised and the devs quickly added it to the device. Just a while back, on the livestream another player suggested that the counter should also count backwards. It was even added before the preview went live.

These reactions are phenomenal, but i am afraid that we are not with the counter done yet. And frankly, the endresult of a 1x3 counter does not quite feel oni-ish as well, because most automation buildings are alot smaller than that. 1x2 just felt the right size.

 

My use-case: i am using an isolated living area for 32 dupes. Whenever my dupes leave that living area, they have to use one of my 32 exo-suit docks. For several reasons (modulization, space constraints, etc.) i have opted to go with 4 8-dock entrances for my dupes. This feels like a good trade-off to me, because i'd imagine that my dupes would simply enter from where they are coming in and leave to where they want to go. The problem is that only 8 dupes can leave from every exit. This is a reasonable contraint and i could even add additional docks to aleviate that issue. However the problem is when the dupes want to enter my living area. For the first 8 dupes, everything is fine, but as soon as the 9th dupe enters, his exosuit will be dropped to the ground, forcing me to manually find the unoccupied dock of the other 24 and order a dupe to supply the exosuit back to the original entrance.

To workaround this issue, i have restricted access to every of my entrances to only 8 dupes. This neglects them from choosing their optimal entrance and even when only 4 of my 8 dupes who are assigned to one entrance/exit have left my area, nobody else will be allowed to use the ports, leaving 4 suits on that entrance/exit vacant.

My hope was that someday (tm) i would be able to do an automation that would restrict access to my entrance/exit based on how many dupes have passed in each direction. Something like *gasp* counter.

 

By now you might have already caught on to my problem. One direction is fairly simple: install pressure pad, install counter, wait for dupes to pass, done!

But that is only the counter in one direction of the passage. To correctly count how many docks are currently vacant, i would have to increment for every dupe, who leaves and decrement for every dupe who enters. Ofc, i could simply add 2 counters, match their ribbon wire output, if it is even, reset both counters and work some other logic magic to extract the correct number of vacant docks on a third counter. But i would opt for a better counter interface.

 

My suggestion:

The counter should have 3 inputs (bear with me, erika, you wont have to make a 1x4 counter). One input to increment, one to decrement and one to reset. And of course the ribbon output of the currently displayed number. It should also keep the checkbox to choose whether the counter should mainly count up or down (effectively swapping input-1 and input-2). But i would also like to bundle all this functionality in a ribbon wire input.

This would allow the counter to still be 1x2, it would add an additional incitement to use ribbon wires, it would still leave us with 1 unused input port for future use and it would allow us for a blueprint of automation tech progression.

 

The out-of-the-box counter should come with the build-flag (from the livestream), outputport (livestream) and single-input (increment/decrement based on flag). As soon as ribbon wires are researched, the single input wire will still have the same functionality, but it is also possible to use a ribbon wire as input, allowing us to decrement (or increment depending on build-flag) and reset.

 

As already suggested, this blueprint could be applied to other buildings with automation-ports as well, further integrating the ribbon with the oxygen prison.

Examples:

  • rocket
    • out: ready
      • potentially: ready, fueled, manned
    • in: start
      • potentially: start, request astronaut
  • battery
    • out: sufficiently full
      • sufficiently full, full, empty
  • pipe sensors:
    • element/temperature/mass matched
      • matched, no measureable value

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Milliways    5

I don't really have an opinion on the counter, but why don't you just set your exosuit checkpoints to vacancy only? That way your dupes will only pass if there's a vacant exosuit dock. No need for automation.

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blash365    629
39 minutes ago, Milliways said:

I don't really have an opinion on the counter, but why don't you just set your exosuit checkpoints to vacancy only? That way your dupes will only pass if there's a vacant exosuit dock. No need for automation.

That applies only to the direction of leaving the area (taking an exo-suit).

I have a problem with dupes reentering, dropping their exo-suit to the ground because there is no dock available.

But maybe another checkpoint-mode would also help here.;)

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beowulf2010    573
1 hour ago, blash365 said:

That applies only to the direction of leaving the area (taking an exo-suit).

I have a problem with dupes reentering, dropping their exo-suit to the ground because there is no dock available.

But maybe another checkpoint-mode would also help here.;)

No, Vacancy Only does exactly what you want. It prevents dupes from entering and dropping off a suit if there is no dock for it to be placed in...

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blash365    629
3 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

No, Vacancy Only does exactly what you want. It prevents dupes from entering and dropping off a suit if there is no dock for it to be placed in...

I highly doubt that, because that's exactly what my exosuit checkpoint is configured as.:/ Or did the behaviour change in the last ~2-3 patches?

Edited by blash365

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Saturnus    3,536
3 minutes ago, blash365 said:

I highly doubt that, because that's exactly what my exosuit checkpoint is configured as.:/ Or did the behaviour change in the last ~2-3 patches?

No, he's right. If set to no vacancies it solves your problem

 

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blash365    629
1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

No, he's right. If set to no vacancies it solves your problem

 

Alright, i'll give it a try then. Thanks so much.

 

My use-case is botched then. But the counter feedback is still valid.;)

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beowulf2010    573

Vacancy Only on exosuit docks have had the same behivior since I started playing in late 2017.

The problem is that the option button on the station (and most others) is misleading in the fact that what it displays written on the button is what it will change to when you press it so if it says Vacancy Only (default) it actually acts as Always. 

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suxkar    132

I have precisely the same setup as yours, 4 exosuit dock blocks at the corners of my core base. It behaves as intended and has done so for hundreds of cycles, failing not even once.

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pether    122

I like the idea of 4-bit ribbon output containg exact value. In general I like the idea of ribbon introduced in the pack, but it feels that currently it main appliance is for pixel set, not the logic systems. Your idea to use it for the counter sensor gives both ribbon and the counter more ways to prove themselves. What I dont like is we - as a community - change our requests for the counters and sensors so often it must be very hard for the devs to follow our ideas...

However, assuming the ribbon would make it to the counter, to make sure this signal could be use to increment another counter (to make 10 after 9), we would need several more features:

Existing logic gates supporting 4-bit ribbons.

In this case, existing AND, OR, NOT and XOR gates should allow logic ribbons to be connected as input and output. Each output bit should be the result of selected logic operation for corresponding input bits, like this:

(a, b, c, d) AND (A, B, C, D) = (a AND A,  b AND B, c AND C, d AND D)
NOT (a, b, c, d) = (NOT a, NOT b, NOT c, NOT d)

Adding two new buildings: AND-4 and OR-4 logic gates

2-tile building with logic ribbon input and single logic wire output. The output signal contains the result of AND or OR operation applied to all 4 input buts, like this:

AND-4(a, b, c, d) = a AND b AND c and d
OR-4(a, b, c, d) = a OR b OR c OR d

Adding new building: Comparing gate

4-tile logic gate, similar to existing OR, XOR, etc gates. It has two logic ribbon inputs and single logic wire output. The gate sends green signal if both input ribbons have equal values of each bit; red - if there is a difference on at least one bit. 
Note: The same effect would have connecting 2 ribbons to XOR gate connected with single ribbon to OR-4 gate, connected to NOT gate. This new Comparing Gate building only would allow to make everythig 2 times smaller.

 

The above would allow us to define a number we are interested in and check if the Counter output ribbon have defined value - if so, green signal could increment value of another counter (transition from 9 to 10) or execute another logic

 

In addition, I think that logic ribbon is perfect to introduce another binary operation we know from real life with the following:

Adding new building: SHIFT gate

4-tile logic gate, with ribbon input, wire input, ribbon output and wire output. The gate shifts input from the ribbon 1 bit right (or left, could be configurable similar as timings for existing filter gates). The right-most bit escapes the ribbon and is moved to the output logic wire. Empty space in the output ribbon is filled with signal from the input wire, like this:

(a, b, c, d) + (z) ==SHIFT_RIGHT==> (z, a, b, c) + (d)

This building would be perfect for example to prepare looped animations with pixel sets.

If @Ipsquiggle is reading this I hope my description is precise enough for dev to understand my vision. Let me add how excited we are to see new pack released and we are all hoping you can fit the solid sensors in the pack, even if we will have to wait some more for the pack! Cheers!

 

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blash365    629
5 minutes ago, pether said:

What I dont like is we - as a community - change our requests for the counters and sensors so often it must be very hard for the devs to follow our ideas...

This is correct. But that is also what the testing phase is for. I am throwing it out here, so that we can discuss it once more. Because apparently it wasnt discussed until the end before. :)

 

5 minutes ago, pether said:

However, assuming the ribbon would make it to the counter, to make sure this signal could be use to increment another counter (to make 10 after 9), we would need several more features:

If i am not mistaken, this feature is already built-in the current counter. No need for a logic link, because adjecent counters will already increment/decrement each other. At least that's what i gathered from the livestream.

Edited by blash365

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pether    122
4 minutes ago, blash365 said:

If i am not mistaken, this feature is already built-in the current counter. No need for a logic link, because adjecent counters will already increment/decrement each other. At least that's what i gathered from the livestream.

If I understand correctly, current counter sends green signal after hitting specified number (like 0) and this signal can be used to increment the counter that is next to it. If we include 4-bit value output there is a little space for all the inputs and outputs to maintain 3 tile size. Please note, that it would be best to have reset counter in the middle so all counters can be connected easily with single reset button. 

However, even if the counter would not be changed I still think the above gates should be included in the pack. It seems to be little efford to add ribbon support to the existing gates and to create and4/or4 gates - the logic seems easy and existigng graphics/symbols can be used. Shift and coparing gates are slightly more advanced so I think of them as lower priority but still nice to have :)

There is also always a possibility that I didn't fully understand your concept of 3-tile increment/decrement counter with reset and current value output

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Saturnus    3,536

As I see it there's no need to complicate things by adding ribbon cable functionality to existing gates right now.

Just make things work right on the most basic level, and then add the more complex functionality in a future DLC.

That's why I requested a reset on the counter in the first place. Without it the counter would be pointless for any real automation stuff. It would still have been useful as a toggle switch replacement but that's like 3 tiles worth of automation saved so basically nothing.

I also see no reason to add ribbon cable functionality to basic logic gates. Instead add it for more advanced integrated circuits, or at the least a JK flip flop so we can easily make more advanced circuits.

Edited by Saturnus
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blash365    629
2 hours ago, Saturnus said:

No, he's right. If set to no vacancies it solves your problem

Sorry, for being persistent, but it doesnt.

 

4B70CB6695AD9B7A4757801D07C09A6E977F2A87

i have 12 unused exo-suits in compactors. You can clearly see that there are 17 now. I also have a notification about my suits being dropped at the checkpoint. The vacancy setting doesnt work for me.

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beowulf2010    573
40 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Sorry, for being persistent, but it doesnt.

 

4B70CB6695AD9B7A4757801D07C09A6E977F2A87

i have 12 unused exo-suits in compactors. You can clearly see that there are 17 now. I also have a notification about my suits being dropped at the checkpoint. The vacancy setting doesnt work for me.

Can you post a screen shot of the Atmo Suit Checkpoint settings? 

Edited by beowulf2010

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blash365    629
Just now, beowulf2010 said:

Can you post a screen shot of the dock settings? 

Point taken. Apparently i was unable to read the settings screen correctly.;)

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beowulf2010    573
9 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Point taken. Apparently i was unable to read the settings screen correctly.;)

No worries. Klei really should change the buttons to toggles so it's more intuitive. 

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pether    122
1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

As I see it there's no need to complicate things by adding ribbon cable functionality to existing gates right now.

Just make things work right on the most basic level, and then add the more complex functionality in a future DLC.

Well, for me it would be not complicated, more like intuitive and it would feel strange to have it differently. What is more - I believe this pack is a perfect moment for this. In DLC I'd see something really complex (like designing your own hardware from existing logic gates and using it as 4-tile logic gate building for example) or even better - something completly differnt (let's be real - despite all my love and excitement about automation, KLEI cannot do the same thing over and over again and must prepare something new and WOW! for the DLC - and yet another automation upgrade would feel duplicated)

But I think we can agree that the solid sensors are must-be above all else :)

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