Canis

Discussion about Rework Order

Recommended Posts

ArubaroBeefalo    814
5 hours ago, meepmoop said:

I lol'ed when you put wigfred beneath the other 3. I would say she is the easiest to survive as BY FAR. People kill dragonfly as her at beeping day 3.

10 characters. The blank one is +0. all other characters are either +1 or higher. This makes him weaker by compare.

However Im still against reworking him.

I think he is +0 but others are weaker than him. Its at the same level than weeber.

 

Also you can kill DF with every character in day 3 but yeah, wigfrid its the easier to survive, only needs to kill spiders to be always full stats

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Viktor234    3082
5 hours ago, meepmoop said:

I lol'ed when you put wigfred beneath the other 3. I would say she is the easiest to survive as BY FAR. People kill dragonfly as her at beeping day 3.

It's not about the difficulty in terms of surviving, it's about what you're able to achieve when playing as certain character. Of course Wigfrid is the easiest and thus the most popular character in DST. Wolfgang requires alot of food to keep his powers and Wickerbottom got problems with her insanity and isn't able to use tents, but then again: Wigfrid isn't able to deal 1k damage per second or to move in high-speed. There's alot to argue in this table in terms of strength.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    3137
1 hour ago, Viktor234 said:

It's not about the difficulty in terms of surviving, it's about what you're able to achieve when playing as certain character. Of course Wigfrid is the easiest and thus the most popular character in DST. Wolfgang requires alot of food to keep his powers and Wickerbottom got problems with her insanity and isn't able to use tents, but then again: Wigfrid isn't able to deal 1k damage per second or to move in high-speed. There's alot to argue in this table in terms of strength.

I think you guys are missing the entire point behind character refreshes..

They aren’t doing these to Buff or Nerf X Character So they better compare to others for Y End Game Content Results.. they are doing these to flesh out a Characters personality and give them each a unique and fun play style so that they do not all feel roughly exactly the same anymore.

I have yet to see any of the Refreshes focus on Nerfing OP characters or Buffing Weaker ones.. They’ve all added very fun and interesting new gameplay variety.

 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GetNerfedOn    4482
48 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I think you guys are missing the entire point behind character refreshes..

They aren’t doing these to Buff or Nerf X Character So they better compare to others for Y End Game Content Results.. they are doing these to flesh out a Characters personality and give them each a unique and fun play style so that they do not all feel roughly exactly the same anymore.

I have yet to see any of the Refreshes focus on Nerfing OP characters or Buffing Weaker ones.. They’ve all added very fun and interesting new gameplay variety.

 

To provide counterexamples:

 - Reworked Willow, in light of her weak pre rework self, was buffed. Hard. And her playstyle was merely improved upon by buffing Bernie and tweaking her.

 - Reworked Woodie was changed, but in such a way that he no longer resembled his broken pre-rework self.

 - People cry out for Wendy to be reworked, and because she "needs" it - because she has flaws - which people including you have stated repeatedly- that need to be improved, and therefore buffed.

 

Yes, character refreshes provide new playstyles, but they also have the undeniable potential to remedy, buff or nerf character flaws as we've seen.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Viktor234    3082
52 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I think you guys are missing the entire point behind character refreshes..

They aren’t doing these to Buff or Nerf X Character So they better compare to others for Y End Game Content Results.. they are doing these to flesh out a Characters personality and give them each a unique and fun play style so that they do not all feel roughly exactly the same anymore.

I have yet to see any of the Refreshes focus on Nerfing OP characters or Buffing Weaker ones.. They’ve all added very fun and interesting new gameplay variety.

I think you're missing the fact that I don't want to have certain characters nerfed or buffed. I made that table only to show in which state certain characters are, not if they need to be nerfed to the ground or become as mighty as Wolfgang.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rma209    56

At the end of the day if the reworks can put all the characters in line with each other it worked. Every character should shine, even if just a little, at something. A reason to be them. If Wes is hard to play but brings something to the team then its a win there too. I want Wes to be able to help the team at a cost to himself. Then go back to self survival.

Edited by Rma209
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
meepmoop    205
7 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

It's not about the difficulty in terms of surviving, it's about what you're able to achieve when playing as certain character. Of course Wigfrid is the easiest and thus the most popular character in DST. Wolfgang requires alot of food to keep his powers and Wickerbottom got problems with her insanity and isn't able to use tents, but then again: Wigfrid isn't able to deal 1k damage per second or to move in high-speed. There's alot to argue in this table in terms of strength.

what do you mean about "being able to achieve"? When does a character considered 'strong' or 'weak'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    3137
26 minutes ago, meepmoop said:

what do you mean about "being able to achieve"? When does a character considered 'strong' or 'weak'.

Your not confused.. the strengths and weaknesses of a character is all 100% based on a player to player basis.

Some people may struggle to play as Wigfrids despite Expert Players saying LoLz she’s EZ Mode.

And then there are people who play as Wormwood and have no problem at all playing him and for that person, Wormwood is actually easier to play as then (insert easiest character in game here)

Its all 100% based on how YOU play the game.. not on how strong or weak a character is.

I have absolutely no problems playing as Wormwood, Wicker or Wurt..

Meanwhile I Struggle with some of the ones that are considered EZ Mode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
meepmoop    205
5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I think you guys are missing the entire point behind character refreshes..

They aren’t doing these to Buff or Nerf X Character So they better compare to others for Y End Game Content Results.. they are doing these to flesh out a Characters personality and give them each a unique and fun play style so that they do not all feel roughly exactly the same anymore.

I have yet to see any of the Refreshes focus on Nerfing OP characters or Buffing Weaker ones.. They’ve all added very fun and interesting new gameplay variety.

 

Yea I agree with that philosophy (BTW just curious - where did Klei state that? Like, I hope its their true intention but want to know if they actually said it). This kind of 'balance' some people talk about is more related to the world of competitive games and not of co-op ones.

As long as players not compete against each other, being stronger or weaker won't make players feel bad. and thats the point at the end imo. To make the play experience as enjoyable and fun as the players want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    3137
21 minutes ago, meepmoop said:

Yea I agree with that philosophy (BTW just curious - where did Klei state that? Like, I hope its their true intention but want to know if they actually said it). This kind of 'balance' some people talk about is more related to the world of competitive games and not of co-op ones.

As long as players not compete against each other, being stronger or weaker won't make players feel bad. and thats the point at the end imo. To make the play experience as enjoyable and fun as the players want.

I don’t think they have ever exactly said that.. but well, if they were nerfing or buffing them.. surely we would have already seen someone Nerfed or Buffed to high hell by now right?

out of the 7 characters who have had Reworks (I’m counting Warly & the DLC ones) done on them none of them have focused on “Be more like Wigfrid” Or.. “Be Less Like Wes.”

I never agree with Nerf/Buff anyway because sometimes when a game goes to the extremities of nerfing an OP character what actually happens is they end up making a different character superior to them in every way.

Just look at Apex Legends- I Main Wraith she’s my go to choice as a character but people whines and complained that she was soooo OP she has since received many Nerfs, both in the distance she can cover with her abilities, and how long they take to cool down and be usable again.

What ended up happening is new Characters have entered the game that’s abilities have 3x as much range on them and less cooldown penalty then Wraiths which in the end result- Turned Wraith into a Shadow of her Former Self.

NOW They will need to go back and RE-REWORK Wraith.. (again)

This is something I do not believe Klei can Afford to keep doing every single time a character gets a Nerf or a buff that makes another character end up being Superior to them.

For now... that Argument seems to be that Weregoose now does WALANI and Woodlegs Jobs of being Water Specialists better than they can.

I would rather them just focus on fleshing out their personalities and giving them some fun new gameplay features, while instead of wasting their time and development costs on continuously nerfing and buffing to provide us with MORE World Content-

New Biomes, New Mobs, New Bosses, New Craftable Items.

TL:DR

More DONT STARVE Core Game Content.. and LESS SMITE God Character Balancing.

(Yeah I went there..)

 

Edited by Mike23Ua

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
zVince    1959

That absurd! :wilsondisagreeable:

What do you mean Wilson's the last on the list? He seemed right to be neutral. But we're at Don't Starve Together. Every character needs to have minimal utility. Proof of this is some other characters not being used much or falling out to the public's liking.In the old days I played and barely saw players from Winona, Willow and woodie. After refresh the situation is different. 

I've been playing with Wilson since 2014. In the single player it is justifiable to be neutral by the character's progress and unlocking system. (I'd rather him be neutral there). But in multiplayer things are quite different.  He has a personality that does not match his abilities and utilities. Now I keep changing characters to be really useful and focus on a specific need. How to collect resources, kill bosses, make farms... But in the end I use Wilson when there's not much to do and I need to make the base.

Wilson needs to be more interesting in gambling. It's great to be a nice poster boy. But Wilson's players feel he doesn't have a differential.

Edited by zVince
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
meepmoop    205
3 hours ago, zVince said:

That absurd! :wilsondisagreeable:

What do you mean Wilson's the last on the list? He seemed right to be neutral. But we're at Don't Starve Together. Every character needs to have minimal utility. Proof of this is some other characters not being used much or falling out to the public's liking.In the old days I played and barely saw players from Winona, Willow and woodie. After refresh the situation is different. 

I've been playing with Wilson since 2014. In the single player it is justifiable to be neutral by the character's progress and unlocking system. (I'd rather him be neutral there). But in multiplayer things are quite different.  He has a personality that does not match his abilities and utilities. Now I keep changing characters to be really useful and focus on a specific need. How to collect resources, kill bosses, make farms... But in the end I use Wilson when there's not much to do and I need to make the base.

Wilson needs to be more interesting in gambling. It's great to be a nice poster boy. But Wilson's players feel he doesn't have a differential.

There are still a big part of the players who play alone. If you dont like a Wilson because he has not 'together' utility just dont play with people who pick him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
zVince    1959
1 hour ago, meepmoop said:

There are still a big part of the players who play alone. If you dont like a Wilson because he has not 'together' utility just dont play with people who pick him.

In a group I play I'm usually the only one who chooses he. I really like the character and I think he deserves more. Before the celestial portal only played with he. Now, with the possibility of changing characters, I'm more versatile about the other characters. I have several worlds 1000 days with him, I started one recently, again with him. The idea of refreshes is to make the characters more interesting to play. And make it in the game, be compatible with your skills, personality and history. Wilson, the only one who doesn't have anything special. A magnificent beard only. One of the characters with the most in-depth story, a scientist, who has nothing added in game.

Edited by zVince
  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    3137

I definitely do not envy the Devs when it comes to these character Refreshes or new game content updates No matter what changes they make there will Always be a group of people who hate it, and there will always be a group of people who love it. 

If it was up to me I would just add a “Classic Option” so people who want to play the game without all the cool new stuff they continue to add can play happily and peacefully, while the rest of us wanting huge changes can get those & enjoy them.

Its almost the exact same thing as choosing to host your world with Classic Biomes, or choosing to host with Together Biomes.

(I’m not 100% sure what that does.. but it’s a legit gameplay Toggle you can select.)

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GetNerfedOn    4482
6 hours ago, meepmoop said:
 
 
 
 
6 hours ago, meepmoop said:

snip

 
 
 
 
6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:
 
 
 
 
5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

snip

Pre Rework Willow, for example, was "unbalanced" because:

 - she froze when insane, and her low sanity made it happen a lot

 - Bernie's use was a rather niche one

 - they removed her fire immunity, which while being a situational change was part and parcel of her being a firestarter

 - In general, Willow was a pain and had little to offer a team except Bernie

And pre-rework Woodie was "unbalanced" because:

 - He froze and his sanity drained like a tap in Beaver form

 - Getting out of Beaver form was changed to be part of his Log Meter, and it sucked trying to bring yourself back to a hundred Log Meter every time. Dying didn't help because you revive as Werebeaver.

 - Woodie was generally considered the worst gatherer in the game as he had to maintain a horrible wereform and faced constant insanity compared to Maxwell, who only had to perform Kage Bunshin no Jutsu to level an entire forest or mine an entire rocky biome in a few seconds.

Despite it not being directly mentioned by Klei, the dev's decisions to rework specifically them first were in part to buff them and rebalance them such that they were more viable to play, fun to play and contributed to the group, unlike the messes they used to be

Now, since Wendy's most probably going to be reworked next, isn't it because, despite her core gameplay remaining largely the same, fun management you have with Abby which has been existent since DS alone, she remains a weaker character compared to the rest especially in light of Abby's dumb AI? Which the community has requested buffs to for so long? 

TL;DR, character refreshes have the undeniable potential to buff underpowered characters, with cases en pointe being Woodie and Willow.

Edited by GetNerfedOn
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now