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Saturnus

Minimalistic Water Cooler with new bonus steam turbine info

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Saturnus    3549

So I was playing around with some setups and by accident discovered that steam turbines do not need a thermal medium to be cooled. The steam turbine is in direct contact with the foundation, so all that is needed to cool the steam turbine is a metal tile with a radiant pipe running through it.

You can do this whenever you're not using all the steam turbines ports. So most set ups really. Only set ups where you can't really use it is if you're actively using the water output from steam turbines and thus are probably interested in as much throughput as possible.

But for most builds that involves steam turbines you can use it, especially split steam turbines as detailed in this thread are good candidates to be tweaked with this new information.

Here's an example of a minimalistic water cooler based on this.

image.thumb.png.b038267be64d6abd61f4386cfe268811.png

This cools water from 39.8C to 20.3C average. Note that since it has no real buffer it's quite fiddly with setting the temperature sensor as it relies on the ratio between hot and cold packets allowed through. Here the temperature sensor is set to 25.8C. The actual output temperature varies between 15.2C and 25.2C but will quickly average itself out in any actual set up simply due to radiant pipe mass buffering.

Temperature in the steam chamber is between 132C and 135C so a gold amalgam aquatuner can be used. The steam turbine here in a vacuum is being cooled only by the cooling loop to between 31C and 35C. The power output of the steam turbine averages to about 190W in this set up.

The top two metal tiles cools the steam turbine and actively uses the thermal mass of the steam turbine to equalize temperatures in the cooling loop. The two bottom metal tiles are just thermal buffers and can be omitted.

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psusi    249

Are you quite sure that the turbine is actually cooled by those metal tiles, as opposed to the metal tiles cooling the air, and then the air is cooling the turbine?

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Saturnus    3549
15 minutes ago, psusi said:

Are you quite sure that the turbine is actually cooled by those metal tiles, as opposed to the metal tiles cooling the air, and then the air is cooling the turbine?

As noted. The whole thing is in vacuum. So yes, I'm sure or I wouldn't post it.

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psusi    249
4 hours ago, Saturnus said:

As noted. The whole thing is in vacuum. So yes, I'm sure or I wouldn't post it.

Oh, the pictures made it look like it was still in atmosphere.  I'm not sure how useful this is given that you typically will have atmosphere in the area so you still need to seal it in anyhow.

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beowulf2010    599
9 minutes ago, psusi said:

Oh, the pictures made it look like it was still in atmosphere.  I'm not sure how useful this is given that you typically will have atmosphere in the area so you still need to seal it in anyhow.

Considering most of us build stuff like this in a vacuum before introducing liquids and the rare hydrogen filled chamber, it's quite useful...

It's rare one needs the full 100% capacity of a steam turbine. Most applications will run fine on 60 or 80%.

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KittenIsAGeek    1459
21 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

It's rare one needs the full 100% capacity of a steam turbine. Most applications will run fine on 60 or 80%.

I wouldn't say 'rare.'   I suppose it depends on the individual.  Generally I'm running my steam turbines at 90 to 98% of their maximum output rate through the use of automation.  However, I will admit that I like @Saturnus trick and can see where it would be useful.

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Saturnus    3549
1 hour ago, psusi said:

Oh, the pictures made it look like it was still in atmosphere.  I'm not sure how useful this is given that you typically will have atmosphere in the area so you still need to seal it in anyhow.

Why would you need to seal it off? It works regardless if it's in a vacuum or not.

I think someone, you specifically, is overlooking the fact that since the foundation is in a direct thermal contact with the metal (or window) tile that includes the x200 multiplier. So it's far far far far far far far far far far (x10 far's) more efficient than any thermal transfer medium including supercoolant. 

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psusi    249
12 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

Considering most of us build stuff like this in a vacuum before introducing liquids and the rare hydrogen filled chamber, it's quite useful.

You keep most of your base in a vacuum?

11 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Why would you need to seal it off? It works regardless if it's in a vacuum or not.

I guess it depends on how cold you are getting your coolant.  If it's about the same temperature that you want to keep the environment at, then you don't need to seal it.  Otherwise you want to seal it so that you don't cool down the environment too much.

 

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Saturnus    3549
1 hour ago, psusi said:

I guess it depends on how cold you are getting your coolant.  If it's about the same temperature that you want to keep the environment at, then you don't need to seal it.  Otherwise you want to seal it so that you don't cool down the environment too much.

You're still missing the point. The metal (or window) tile is so much more efficient than any gas that it doesn't matter what gases and what amount of gases you have, or indeed if any, around the steam turbine. The metal (or window) tile will account for minimum 99.9% of the cooling regardless. So it makes it much easier to set up a steam turbine build, no matter if you want it sealed or not, because you can simply ignore any and all gases around the steam turbine.

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psusi    249
23 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

You're still missing the point. The metal (or window) tile is so much more efficient than any gas that it doesn't matter what gases and what amount of gases you have, or indeed if any, around the steam turbine. The metal (or window) tile will account for minimum 99.9% of the cooling regardless. So it makes it much easier to set up a steam turbine build, no matter if you want it sealed or not, because you can simply ignore any and all gases around the steam turbine.

Yes, the metal tiles are cooling the turbine just fine.  I'm saying they are also cooling the air around them, so if you are making -210 C supercoolant to produce LOX, your base is going to get quite chilly.

 

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Saturnus    3549
13 minutes ago, psusi said:

Yes, the metal tiles are cooling the turbine just fine.  I'm saying they are also cooling the air around them, so if you are making -210 C supercoolant to produce LOX, your base is going to get quite chilly.

Not if you seal it off.

And most people use LOX for cryofuel which logistically would normally be advisable to make near where it's needed, ie. in space, where there's a vacuum, so your objections are baseless. 

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beowulf2010    599
2 hours ago, psusi said:

You keep most of your base in a vacuum?

No, though that's not a bad idea.

I build a box around where I'm going to build a large/complex thing and vacuum it out before I start building/digging so that I don't have to waste time vacuuming and refilling individual chambers later on. 

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psusi    249
45 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Not if you seal it off.

That's what I've been saying.

By the way, why are the bottom corners metal tiles?  And have you actually tried this with a gold AT?  I've never been able to get them to dump heat fast enough to avoid overheating if they are allowed to run without a timer circuit to start/stop them every second or two.

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Saturnus    3549
39 minutes ago, psusi said:

That's what I've been saying.

No. You haven't. You're obtusely still trying to fail to grasp that it's a tool to make steam turbine builds much easier to set up. Use it if you want, or don't. Just like you can choose not to comment on this thread.

39 minutes ago, psusi said:

By the way, why are the bottom corners metal tiles?  And have you actually tried this with a gold AT?  I've never been able to get them to dump heat fast enough to avoid overheating if they are allowed to run without a timer circuit to start/stop them every second or two.

You can use a gold amalgam aquatuner. You just have to follow the general guideline for that which is to have a layer of petroleum or crude oil at the bottom to sink the heat from the aquatuner into and use diamond temp shift plates (middle bottom) to distribute the heat from the petroleum/crude oil to the steam. The aquatuner maxes out at 154C in this build if you just take those normal precautions.

Note that unless you make the steam chamber 3 tall (and have the temp shift plate in the middle), you lose a bit of efficiency when using a gold amalgam aquatuner as the return water will block the 3rd port on every other tick so the steam turbine will run a bit hotter (about 3C hotter) and it will produce slightly less power (about 10W less on average).

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psusi    249
1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

No. You haven't. You're obtusely still trying to fail to grasp that it's a tool to make steam turbine builds much easier to set up. Use it if you want, or don't. Just like you can choose not to comment on this thread.

Are you trolling me?  First you asked:

17 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Why would you need to seal it off?

And then you agreed that you do:

3 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Not if you seal it off.

And now you are claiming that I haven't been saying you need to seal it off?

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

You can use a gold amalgam aquatuner. You just have to follow the general guideline for that which is to have a layer of petroleum or crude oil at the bottom to sink the heat from the aquatuner into and use diamond temp shift plates (middle bottom) to distribute the heat from the petroleum/crude oil to the steam. The aquatuner maxes out at 154C in this build if you just take those normal precautions.

Ahh, I plastered it with igneous tempshifts instead of diamond.

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

Note that unless you make the steam chamber 3 tall (and have the temp shift plate in the middle), you lose a bit of efficiency when using a gold amalgam aquatuner as the return water will block the 3rd port on every other tick so the steam turbine will run a bit hotter (about 3C hotter) and it will produce slightly less power (about 10W less on average).

How is that?  The water comes out as an extra dimensional drip, not a bead, so how can it block the port?  Even if it did, why would that make the turbine run hotter and produce less power?  Both the power produced and the heat deposited into the turbine depend on the amount of heat deleted only.  If you block a port, then there is less mass coming in, so less heat being deleted at the same temperature, so the turbine will be cooler. 

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Saturnus    3549
16 minutes ago, psusi said:

And then you agreed that you do:

Nope. I did not.

17 minutes ago, psusi said:

And now you are claiming that I haven't been saying you need to seal it off?

You didn't.

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Junksteel    810

1. Saturnus presented the finding of thermal transfer between steam turbine and metal (or window) tiles. While simple, it's a great finding.

2. It's the case of the example shown that it presents vacuum as it's medium but also clear at this point that it isn't a step necessary to accomplish the desired effects.

3. Sealing it or not doesn't matter. This specific problem of the supercoolant causing too much cold on the enviroment can be solved by isolating the build, but isn't part of the build!! 

There is no trolling. I love this build as I find setting up steam turbines a big hassle.

 

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Oozinator    2570
1 hour ago, psusi said:

OK... Troll.

 

OMG, really!?
I think you should say sorry for that, because saturnus deserves that title not.
I can not really understand why that escalated here, but you know, it's his thread and his finding is nice, also the way he explained it.
I can see a clear benefit from it, for many (new) players.
He used vacuum only, to demonstrate that it's not overheating. That whole enclosed room thing or not, you brought on the table, has no point.
When something is not overheating in vacuum, why should it do in "atmo" (when atmo is below overheat temp), when it has more stuff to exchange heat with?
You brought the "chilly base" argument, but meh, logic should tell you that you can reshape it to be more useful, for your special needs.
Minimalistic builds are saturnus thing, trolling not.

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psusi    249
On 2/3/2020 at 7:30 PM, Junksteel said:

1. Saturnus presented the finding of thermal transfer between steam turbine and metal (or window) tiles. While simple, it's a great finding.

Agreed.

On 2/3/2020 at 7:30 PM, Junksteel said:

2. It's the case of the example shown that it presents vacuum as it's medium but also clear at this point that it isn't a step necessary to accomplish the desired effects.

I don't think I ever said otherwise.

On 2/3/2020 at 7:30 PM, Junksteel said:

3. Sealing it or not doesn't matter. This specific problem of the supercoolant causing too much cold on the enviroment can be solved by isolating the build, but isn't part of the build!! 

My point was that the advantage of the build is not needing to insolate the turbine, but if you either need to insolate the turbine, or a larger area enclosing the turbine and keep the turbine itself in a vacuum, then it amounts to the same thing.

On 2/3/2020 at 7:30 PM, Junksteel said:

There is no trolling. I love this build as I find setting up steam turbines a big hassle.

The trolling is the fact that I pointed out again what I said ( that you have to insulate the area anyway, even if the insulation is a bit further out ), and quoted him agreeing with me, and then he claimed that I both never said that, and at the same time ( which is impossible ) that I was both wrong, and that I hasven't been saying that.  You can't have it both ways.

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Zillvr    1747

Conversation, discussions and critiques on ideas are ok but let's not derail the thread any further. I'd like to remind everyone to be civil and stay on topic. Be reacquainted with the community guidelines:

If you can't come to an understanding or any sort of agreement on the matter, it's also ok to end the conversation then and there. Let's not escalate things.

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