It's been almost 4 years since DST released and the game largely plays the same

[sudoku]

 

Just now, Jessie223 said:

i don't really see that as a meaningful depth, it just shifts "fight this boss" from optional to mandatory if your initial goals don't involve fighting that boss

which to most new players would be confusing and to some other players just annoying

and this doesn't stop players from just repeating the easiest strategy against the boss if they just wanted to quickly get rid of it

Can you answer me though, why if Klei is doing character refreshes to change character gameplay and enhance it. The same refresh treatment cannot be given to bosses or seasons. That is what I am championing for. 

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, sudoku said:

 

Can you answer me though, why if Klei is doing character refreshes to change character gameplay and enhance it. The same refresh treatment cannot be given to bosses or seasons. That is what I am championing for. 

I done freaking told you... there are 17 playable characters in DST. If you add the 6 from SW & Hamlet that’s 23. Out of 23 characters only 7 have been Reworked. That leaves 16 more to be updated.

They simply CANT update the games combat or enemy behavior before we know how the other 16 characters are going to work.

[Sweaper]

8 minutes ago, sudoku said:

 

Can you answer me though, why if Klei is doing character refreshes to change character gameplay and enhance it. The same refresh treatment cannot be given to bosses or seasons. That is what I am championing for. 

They can, don't think people are saying Klei can't. They decide the direction they want to take with DST. We are just saying why we don't like this idea as much as you may like.

Edit: It could be tomorrow. Next year. 5 years from now. Who knows. Depends on whether they want it or not

Edit: Oh, I think it wasn't for me the message.

[sudoku]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

I done freaking told you... there are 17 playable characters in DST. If you add the 6 from SW & Hamlet that’s 23. Out of 23 characters only 7 have been Reworked. That leaves 16 more to be updated.

They simply CANT update the games combat or enemy behavior before we know how the other 16 characters are going to work.

So they cant update the game yet they are working on new content. They have not stated what this new content is and again these are my suggestions. I do not know why you are acting like you are a klei developer and policing player suggestions. 

Just now, Sweaper said:

It can, don't think people are saying Klei can't. They decide the direction they want to take with DST. We are just saying why we don't like this idea as much as you may like.

I understand that, just as you understand this is my personal suggestion for what I want in terms of new content for 2020.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

So they cant update the game yet they are working on new content. They have not stated what this new content is and again these are my suggestions. I do not know why you are acting like you are a klei developer and policing player suggestions. 

I understand that, just as you understand this is my personal suggestion for what I want in terms of new content for 2020.

I’m not I’m just saying like with how Willow now has Bernie Which is a Nightmare Fuel farming BEAST and how Woodie has his new Moose fighting form and Goose Fleeing form.

We have absolutely no idea how drastically KLEI (not you or I..) has planned to change the characters play styles.

But judging from past Reworks, They will all have new found abilities and perks. 

 

[sudoku]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m not I’m just saying like with how Willow now has Bernie Which is a Nightmare Fuel farming BEAST and how Woodie has his new Moose fighting form and Goose Fleeing form.

We have absolutely no idea how drastically KLEI (not you or I..) has planned to change the characters play styles.

But judging from past Reworks, They will all have new found abilities and perks. 

 

Thats great and all but like they did in 2019 they will have content besides refreshes (ROT). 

[BeanBagSonic]

29 minutes ago, sudoku said:

So they cant update the game yet they are working on new content. They have not stated what this new content is and again these are my suggestions. I do not know why you are acting like you are a klei developer and policing player suggestions. 

Many Senior Members seem to do that. It's a recurring theme in the Klei forums and has driven a lot of players away from the forums in general. I myself haven't touched the forums in a long time for that very reason, and it's a shame that to this day Senior Members continue to act that way towards others, usually newcomers to the forums (I have played Don't Starve ever since its TF2 promo was released).

Welcome to the Klei forums, and hopefully you end up encountering more than just the toxic side of the forums, which the regular group of Senior Members seem to openly endorse. 

EDIT: It seems that the weaponizing of the confused reaction continues. Not to mention names, but responses like that without elaborating only strengthen my point.

[Sweaper]

1 minute ago, BeanBagSonic said:

Many Senior Members seem to do that. It's a recurring theme in the Klei forums and has driven a lot of players away from the forums in general. I myself haven't touched the forums in a long time for that very reason, and it's a shame that to this day Senior Members continue to act that way towards others, usually newcomers to the forums (I have played Don't Starve ever since its TF2 promo was released).

Welcome to the Klei forums, and hopefully you end up seeing more than just the toxic side of the forums, which the regular group of Senior Members seem to openly endorse. 

Not many people are toxic, I'm counting Seniors and new. Some are, sure. But arguing isn't toxicity, it may appear because there are no way to know the tone of the person through a message.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

Thats great and all but like they did in 2019 they will have content besides refreshes (ROT). 

So what your saying is you want updated bosses and seasons right NOW so that when they update the rest of the characters they may (potentially) have to Rework those same bosses and seasons each time?

Dont get me wrong, I’m not against you by any means.. cause I want updates to the game too.. BUT to me it just makes more sense to build those updates around all the playable characters perks.

Small stuff such as new mobs and biomes to explore is pretty simple, but a complicated Boss fight that for example was never designed for Wolfgang’s new found ability to pick up and hurl his team mates... just sounds like something that should be added AFTER they’ve figured out what they want all the playable characters to be able to do.

[sudoku]

1 minute ago, BeanBagSonic said:

Many Senior Members seem to do that. It's a recurring theme in the Klei forums and has driven a lot of players away from the forums in general. I myself haven't touched the forums in a long time for that very reason, and it's a shame that to this day Senior Members continue to act that way towards others, usually newcomers to the forums (I have played Don't Starve ever since its TF2 promo was released).

Welcome to the Klei forums, and hopefully you end up seeing more than just the toxic side of the forums, which the regular group of Senior Members seem to openly endorse. 

Thank you, I have played Dont Starve since 2013 and have lurked on the forums now and then. I dont mind having an open discussion about my suggestions and hearing other peoples opinions, but when those discussions boil down to "you cant suggest this because Klei is working on other stuff" or "your suggestion is pointless because it just adds to DSTs forumla of grinding" it gets a little frustrating. I mean I do not go into skin suggestion threads and say "you cant have that new skin its pointless, and does it really add anything to the game? No". 

[Sweaper]

Just now, sudoku said:

Thank you, I have played Dont Starve since 2013 and have lurked on the forums now and then. I dont mind having an open discussion about my suggestions and hearing other peoples opinions, but when those discussions boil down to "you cant suggest this because Klei is working on other stuff" or "your suggestion is pointless because it just adds to DSTs forumla of grinding" it gets a little frustrating. I mean I do not go into skin suggestion threads and say "you cant have that new skin its pointless, and does it really add anything to the game? No". 

"your suggestion is pointless because it just adds to DSTs forumla of grinding "

Can you quote that? If I indeed say that then that was my fault.

[sudoku]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

So what your saying is you want updated bosses and seasons right NOW so that when they update the rest of the characters they may (potentially) have to Rework those same bosses and seasons each time?

Dont get me wrong, I’m not against you by any means.. cause I want updates to the game too.. BUT to me it just makes more sense to build those updates around all the playable characters perks.

Small stuff such as new mobs and biomes to explore is pretty simple, but a complicated Boss fight that for example was never designed for Wolfgang’s new found ability to pick up and hurl his team mates... just sounds like something that should be added AFTER they’ve figured out what they want all the playable characters to be able to do.

I can agree on that for the most part. But, i believe in Klei enough as a developer that they can take into account the new gameplay they will potentially add while simultaneously working on character refreshes. 

[BeanBagSonic]

2 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Thank you, I have played Dont Starve since 2013 and have lurked on the forums now and then. I dont mind having an open discussion about my suggestions and hearing other peoples opinions, but when those discussions boil down to "you cant suggest this because Klei is working on other stuff" or "your suggestion is pointless because it just adds to DSTs forumla of grinding" it gets a little frustrating. I mean I do not go into skin suggestion threads and say "you cant have that new skin its pointless, and does it really add anything to the game? No". 

Completely agree with you on that point, and I understand how frustrating it can get when great threads that have valid points can easily devolve into a mess of negative exchanges between parties. I have engaged in open discussion on the Klei forums in the past, though as it has been here, it got nasty after a while because it involved a suggestion of new content. It didn't help that the topic in question was PvP, which people in the community do play, although not as many as PvE of course.

From my experience, and the experience of my few friends who decided to attempt to engage in discussion in the forums, there ends up being a lot of repeating yourself to no avail, and like I've stated prior, Senior Members tend to take the high horse and dismiss all that newer forumers have to say. I can only hope that future threads that suggest new content be added to DST end up being, well, less of a bar fight and more of a fun and humble conversation.

[sudoku]

 

35 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

To make it more grindy. FTFY.

Explained somewhere before.

I think the disconnect is that I dont look at the the things you need to do in order to survive as grind. I see them as more of a loose gameplay objective because even though the game is a sandbox it still does have objectives. i would like to see new objectives being added whether they are seasonal variants, meaning the objectives you during a certain season shifts each time, or just new threats altogether which seems to be more controversial.  

[Sweaper]

1 minute ago, BeanBagSonic said:

Completely agree with you on that point, and I understand how frustrating it can get when great threads that have valid points can easily devolve into a mess of negative exchanges between parties. I have engaged in open discussion on the Klei forums in the past, though as it has been here, it got nasty after a while because it involved a suggestion of new content. It didn't help that the topic in question was PvP, which people in the community do play, although not as many as PvE of course.

From my experience, and the experience of my few friends who decided to attempt to engage in discussion in the forums, there ends up being a lot of repeating yourself to no avail, and like I've stated prior, Senior Members tend to take the high horse and dismiss all that newer forumers have to say. I can only hope that future threads that suggest new content be added to DST end up being, well, less of a bar fight and more of a fun and humble conversation.

Yeah, there were some people repeating the same arguments like x can't be compared to y and kept repeating it even though there were someone giving multiple points of comparison. Gotta repeat the same x can't be compared to y when they can't build on the conversation. Should I put names on them?

3 minutes ago, sudoku said:

I think the disconnect is that I dont look at the the things you need to do in order to survive as grind. I see them as more of a loose gameplay objective because even though the game is a sandbox it still does have objectives. i would like to see new objectives being added whether they are seasonal variants, meaning the objectives you during a certain season shifts each time, or just new threats altogether which seems to be more controversial.  

You should look the meaning of grinding, I think people tend to use the same meaning when talking. You may not think gathering resources are grinding, but the meaning of the word doesn't lie.

And if an additional boss appears that require to gather more materials, you will be grinding more. That's basic logic and maybe even a fact.

[BeanBagSonic]

35 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

Not many people are toxic, I'm counting Seniors and new. Some are, sure. But arguing isn't toxicity, it may appear because there are no way to know the tone of the person through a message.

My apologies for not responding to this prior post. This is a fair point you raise, and I understand that not every Senior Member is toxic, but I have seen multiple occasions where those whose names I will not mention have continually made rude posts without contributing to the topic at hand. Arguing is alright so long as it stays on topic. When posts boil down to jabs at others and passive-aggressive behavior without contributing to the topic in question is when it's problematic, or as I've put it, toxic. This kind of behavior has driven away many players from the Klei forums, to which I can only continue to express my concern, as this hinders DST from expanding upon its potential.

16 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

Yeah, there were some people repeating the same arguments like x can't be compared to y and kept repeating it even though there were someone giving multiple points of comparison. Gotta repeat the same x can't be compared to y when they can't build on the conversation. Should I put names on them?

Now you may correct me if I'm wrong here, but this could also be an example of potential passive-aggressiveness. I understand that the both of us have been repeating our stances, and if we both think we're wrong, then so be it. I could argue that constantly bringing up Dark Souls hasn't help this thread in the slightest, and I did look back and found the first mention of Dark Souls not being from you. That was my mistake, but what you did do was expand upon Dark Souls for way too long, and then the exchanges got worse and worse.

My apologies if I have offended anyone in my previous posts, as that was not my intention. I only wanted to contribute to the original thread, though unfortunately this has gone so deep and has branched so far that at this rate we can get lost in what is being said now and what the original message was.

16 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

You should look the meaning of grinding, I think people tend to use the same meaning when talking. You may not think gathering resources are grinding, but the meaning of the word doesn't lie.

And if an additional boss appears that require to gather more materials, you will be grinding more. That's basic logic and maybe even a fact.

Now we're going down the path of gaming philosophy. Like others have said, this is more a matter of how you perceive what is and isn't considered "grinding." On another note, grinding isn't always a bad thing in a game. It depends on how it is implemented, and how you go about doing the grind. If the game is bare-bones and only relies on grinding, then yes, it could get boring fast. If a game has more to offer besides the grind though, then the grinding doesn't become as much of a problem because there's something you're working towards.

I would say there isn't so much of a right or wrong stance on what would be considered grindy, as others could say the grind isn't a grind and is just a lot of fun. I can't fault them for thinking that. It's as subjective as what would be considered "fun" to people. I don't mind grinding so long as there's something to look forward to, and other games have done that formula right. It would be fantastic if Don't Starve Together also got that formula right.

[sudoku]

14 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

Yeah, there were some people repeating the same arguments like x can't be compared to y and kept repeating it even though there were someone giving multiple points of comparison. Gotta repeat the same x can't be compared to y when they can't build on the conversation. Should I put names on them?

You should look the meaning of grinding, I think people tend to use the same meaning when talking. You may not think gathering resources are grinding, but the meaning of the word doesn't lie.

And if an additional boss appears that require to gather more materials, you will be grinding more. That's basic logic and maybe even a fact.

and you use the word grinding because of its negative connotation it has to gameplay when i just stated I do not share that same sentiment. 

[Mike23Ua]

59 minutes ago, sudoku said:

I can agree on that for the most part. But, i believe in Klei enough as a developer that they can take into account the new gameplay they will potentially add while simultaneously working on character refreshes. 

For sure- But also Remember how Klei refreshed Woodie and he got so much negative fanback-lash from it that they had to Rework his Rework?

When they first added Woodies New Forms they intended goose form to be used only for fleeing from combat (as was shown in his short animated trailer) But THEN the forums Exploded with “Goose should Walk on Water!”

Sure Klei didn’t have to do it.. but the fans wanted it.

Now- We have a Woodie he turns goose and goes to Lunar Island to mine up stone fruit and return to base.

but it wasn’t like this at first.. at first Goose was only used as a fleeing Mechanic AND you instantly dropped all Inventory upon transformation.

TL:DR yes they can design bosses around how they refresh their characters, but they can’t design bosses based around the fan feedback they get that may Rework those Reworks.

As a Wendy Main I am excited and also equally fearful for the changes Wendy will receive. 

[me real life]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

but it wasn’t like this at first.. at first Goose was only used as a fleeing Mechanic AND you instantly dropped all Inventory upon transformation.

This was never true. None of the reworked wereforms ever caused Woodie to drop his inventory, only his equipped items (with backpacks being an exception.)

[Sweaper]

56 minutes ago, BeanBagSonic said:

Now you may correct me if I'm wrong here, but this could also be an example of potential passive-aggressiveness.

Omitting names isn't being passive-aggressive. EDIT: Nor is saying what happened.

Quote

Arguing is alright so long as it stays on topic. When posts boil down to jabs at others and passive-aggressive behavior without contributing to the topic in question is when it's problematic, or as I've put it, toxic.

People were arguing about revamping the combat in some way or another, be it through boss or not. They used Dark Souls mechanics to defend or not as a base. It was on topic since revamping the combat can change the gameplay on DST after 4 years of no changes. So, on topic. And by that quote logic, not toxic on this post on the parts I participated.

Quote

I could argue that constantly bringing up Dark Souls hasn't help this thread in the slightest

People were using Dark Souls as the base of their arguments, to counter argue I used the same to show the flaws on whatever they were talking. It did help on the discussion for these arguments, and as I said just above those are on topic by changing the gameplay after 4 years.

 

56 minutes ago, BeanBagSonic said:

and then the exchanges got worse and worse.

Not for me, it didn't get worse. I was just defending my point of view with different arguments, but someone kept trying the same discourse as I said on what you quoted already with few arguments here and there that quickly were counter-argued and never defended back in any way. Don't expect a discussion to evolve if one side (with multiple people at the end) keep tapping the same letters.

56 minutes ago, BeanBagSonic said:

this has gone so deep and has branched so far that at this rate we can get lost in what is being said now and what the original message was.

It was expected to branch off to various other topics considering the title, a lot of things can change to make DST different from 4 years and people went on to add suggestions. If someone agreed or not on one of them they could certainly discuss about that specific suggestion, and there are plenty so a lot of branches.

56 minutes ago, BeanBagSonic said:

Now we're going down the path of gaming philosophy. Like others have said, this is more a matter of how you perceive what is and isn't considered "grinding." On another note, grinding isn't always a bad thing in a game. It depends on how it is implemented, and how you go about doing the grind. If the game is bare-bones and only relies on grinding, then yes, it could get boring fast. If a game has more to offer besides the grind though, then the grinding doesn't become as much of a problem because there's something you're working towards.

I agree on grinding not being bad, most everything you do in DST is grinding after all. But making something a requirement and not an optional thing will make someone have to grind more than they do now just to survive and grinding is time you could be doing what you wanted to do to take care of an annoyance for most people that knows how to get rid of that annoyance. Compare that to an optional thing that if you want to do, then you grind, otherwise you have the choice to work on another optional thing. It gets worse if you play on public servers for 20-30 days where you want to do something that takes a lot of time, but because of all those new/modified (4?) bosses OP suggested are there to eat your time that you were going to use on whatever project, be it base building, sea exploration, ruins rush, raid bosses setups, etc.

Optional grinding -> Obligatory grinding

Imagine if Klei added obligatory grinding but to skip that you could pay her some bucks. Bad right? Plenty of online game will bump up the grind but give some item the minimize the grinding back, Klei wouldn't do it. I'm just exemplifying with the worst case scenario for obligatory grinding. I went more in depth somewhere in this topic scattered in multiple posts.

56 minutes ago, BeanBagSonic said:

I would say there isn't so much of a right or wrong stance on what would be considered grindy, as others could say the grind isn't a grind and is just a lot of fun. I can't fault them for thinking that. It's as subjective as what would be considered "fun" to people. I don't mind grinding so long as there's something to look forward to, and other games have done that formula right. It would be fantastic if Don't Starve Together also got that formula right.

Fun or not it is time consuming. There is already grinding for anyone who wants to grind for harder stuff if that's what they want to. For those that are not so found of grinding they have the choice to grind or not. So by adding more obligatory grinding won't make the people who likes the grind more happy than if those were optional, but it will make those with limited time or playing in publics not quite happy might I say.

49 minutes ago, sudoku said:

and you use the word grinding because of its negative connotation it has to gameplay when i just stated I do not share that same sentiment. 

Grinding is time consuming, that is all. I explained that whatever you wanted were adding to grinding. Is grinding bad, no, I didn't say they were. I said optional grinding is better than obligatory grinding and explained why I said that. Don't project.

 

Edit: Typos, commas, words, grammar

[sudoku]

Except what about seasonal variants or bosses,who are threats and seek you or  impact you in some way, is grinding? If you don't want to "grind" for materials for deerclops, just run away and he will despawn. 

Again you say it's "time consuming" to prepare for threats and that's your opinion. My opinion is that it gives me something to do and work towards which I enjoy.

[Mike23Ua]

6 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Except what about seasonal variants or bosses,who are threats and seek you or  impact you in some way, is grinding? If you don't want to "grind" for materials for deerclops, just run away and he will despawn. 

Again you say it's "time consuming" to prepare for threats and that's your opinion. My opinion is that it gives me something to do and work towards which I enjoy.

This game isn’t designed like that though- Especially since they focus a lot on limited time seasonal events.

if they just spawned Monster after Monster to destoy the Christmas village I won’t get to rebuild until NEXT Wintersfeast I would be heartbroken and pissed off with this game.

But the compromise is Optional content that you can tackle when your ready for it (For example building a boat setting sail for a Biome where the lands are charcoal and the rivers are Magma and then battling some fearsome fire giant that wrecks that whole island..)

This keeps him from destroying the massive Carrat Race track I just built, while at the same time providing YOU with that new challenge your looking for.

[Sweaper]

25 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Except what about seasonal variants or bosses,who are threats and seek you or  impact you in some way, is grinding? If you don't want to "grind" for materials for deerclops, just run away and he will despawn. 

Again you say it's "time consuming" to prepare for threats and that's your opinion. My opinion is that it gives me something to do and work towards which I enjoy.

That's what I do already on publics unless it spawns near me and I have a weapon.

Is my opinion that preparing is time consuming? Do you prepare for something in 0 seconds or you need to use time go prepare for something. I'm pretty sure this is not a matter of opinion but knowing how the world works and its physics.

If you enjoy that, great. More power to you. I too enjoy preparing for something and accomplish that something I wanted to accomplish. But then when you suggest to Klei to throw some obnoxious boss that will annoy you until you do something about it, that's doing something out of obligation. Not everyone is always happy or in the mood when dealing with a certain obligation when that calls for you, I'm sure that happens to you too.

You can always prepare for threats, did some of the harder boss respawned? Well, since you enjoy the threat feeling go there the moment it respawns stopping everything you're doing, with only you have. No one is stopping you from that. This is a sandbox game after all.

Edit: Building on the seasonal boss. Do you really think that I don't find Deerclops a nuisance if it spawns near the base of the people (usually casuals) and kill everyone. Now they are demanding me to kill it otherwise they will reset the world, so if for some reason I'm getting rid of splumonkeys huts now I'll have to go all the way back to surface then to where Deerclops is, kill it, and resurrect a bunch of people just because I don't want the game to reset yet.

That's another reason I don't want more obligatory boss, I guess.

[minespatch]

Why is this thread seven pages long?

[Sweaper]

6 minutes ago, minespatch said:

Why is this thread seven pages long?

My fault.

Edit: Now it's 8...