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It's been almost 4 years since DST released and the game largely plays the same


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On 2/1/2020 at 12:33 AM, Mike23Ua said:

About the “games don’t re-invent themselves every year or So..”

I think I and a billion other people can PROVE that they do.

Here I’ll give 3 or 4 good examples.

GTA 4 and GTA V

Red Dead Redemption & RDR 2.

Gears Of War Judgement & GoW 4.

and just encase those examples aren’t enough to satisfy you-

Batman Arkham City and Batman Arkham Knight.

Absolutely NOONE who played Arkham City Wanted or Expected to have a Transforming Tank Car shoved down their throat for 90% of the game, Because anyone who knows anything at all about Batman’s actual origins  knows that using a Tank with more weapons on it then a small Militia goes completely against everything he was created from.

So I believe I rest my case when I say games DO re-Invent themselves.. and they do it quite often For Better or For Worse.

GTA4 is still GTA4, so the game didn't reinvent its self.  League of Legends is still League of Legends even though balance patches and new abilities have altered what is meta.  Gta4 vs Gta5 are two completely different games, such as from DS to DST.

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isn't the point of a "meta" to minimise risks and challenge? it wouldn't be a meta if it's unnecessarily difficult, would it?

when people ask to "change up the meta" or "shift the meta" for a game like DST, it's a bit odd

let's get into a scenario where DST's "meta" is changed somehow, like let's say klei produces the following changes:
- wigfrid is now better than wolfgang at combat
- woodie is now better than maxwell at resource gathering
- wilson is now better than wicker at resource production
- farm plots finally regain their throne as the most efficient food source
- ratatouille is now the supreme crock pot recipe
- etc etc etc basically a lot of things are changed

so what happens here is the old meta completely dies and for a week or so DST feels like an entirely new game

and then, unsurprisingly, a new meta is later formed, just like the last one but with different names on it this time, forums soon get back to the business of arguing about the meta

no problem is solved and we're back to square one, unless of course you can convince klei to bring massive gameplay changes every few weeks

personally i think a player's refusal to engage in optional content in favour of sticking with "the meta" is not really the developers' problem, that is the player's own problem and it's a problem that'll stay on them for as long as they wish for it to stay

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1 hour ago, Jessie223 said:

personally i think a player's refusal to engage in optional content in favour of sticking with "the meta" is not really the developers' problem, that is the player's own problem and it's a problem that'll stay on them for as long as they wish for it to stay

Personally, I think it pretty much becomes... objectively bad game design if the only solution here is to cripple yourself. Players shouldn't have to force themselves to play a game a certain way to make the experience engaging in the slightest. For many, it is extremely hard to engage with content... that is really just wasting their time. Things like lunar island fail because there is absolutely nothing there that is interesting... or worth your time. Its just fluff. That's not so say fluff/just for fun content, like these rat races,  doesn't have any place in games, its just that there absolutely needs to be a well designed core experience without the fluff.. which right now, DST is lacking. 

As pointed out in this thread by many, DST's main flaw holding it back is that it relies entirely on memory (Which is not good when your game is supposed to be replayable!). Any threat in this game becomes completely obsolete once you know about it. ANY new content they add with DST's current combat system and non-existent progression system, will suffer from this same exact flaw. So...... that's where I would start. Revamp the combat system to rely less on memory and more on skill. This would make it so that even if you are familiar with how an enemy works, it would still require some skill to take it out. And as for a progression system.... well uhh...... add one! The world could get increasingly difficult with increasingly good/interesting rewards.. They could add world-changing events that cause these increases and open up the world in new ways, like for an easy example, killing the fuelweaver. Open up the portal to gorge and forge or something... and have content from those events leak into the world... as biomes... weapons... npcs/enemies... etc.. Another one could be the chunk of the moon falling. Have some event cause it to fall from the moon, changing the water from the classic cardboard to the real traversable water we have today. Of course, that would require them to change the lunar island and to make it actually rewarding and fun to go there.... same for the ocean in general. And I realize these changes might not be for everyone.... so..... it could be... OPTIONAL.. a setting you select when creating the world or something. There could be a "Classic mode", which would be what we have today... and a new "mode" for whatever you want to call these changes. 

As cool as I think all of that COULD potentially be.... I unfortunately really don't think any of these changes are plausible with.. err.. Klei's current mindset. Its clear that all of this new content is intentionally designed to be fluff and only fluff. Quite frankly, I'm not even sure they would know HOW to change the game, as that would require you to understand the game's current systems and flaws. Just go watch a stream of theirs, its abundantly clear they don't really... play the game. I hope I'm wrong there.. but ehhh...

But, what do I know? I won't act like I'm an expert game designer, I fully realize changes like these are difficult/time consuming... and I doubt are something I would be able to perfectly come up with myself... But...all I'm trying to say is that it might be worth a shot. I truly believe it would be very much so worth their time to just, at the very least........ think about something like this.... In the end, fluff content isn't going to be able to keep this game alive for much longer.

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3 minutes ago, Jessie223 said:

instead of saying "this should take more skill", explain how it should take more skill

it also shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that being better at a game makes it less challenging

Does getting better at almost any other game completely remove challenge? No, but memory helps for sure. There is still some skill required in executing a movement/plan in any other game ...but not in DST. That's what I mean.. by "it should take more skill".. it shouldn't just be counting to 6 in your head and walking backwards a tiny bit. 

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2 minutes ago, Crimson Chin said:

Does getting better at almost any other game completely remove challenge? No, but memory helps for sure. There is still some skill required in executing a movement/plan in any other game ...but not in DST. That's what I mean.. by "it should take more skill".. it shouldn't just be counting to 6 in your head and walking backwards a tiny bit. 

I wonder how many people here have soloed B. Queen without any glitch or setup. Just with a limited amount of healing food and hambat/dark swords.

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Just now, Sweaper said:

I wonder how many people here have soloed B. Queen without any glitch or setup. Just with a limited amount of healing food and hambat/dark swords.

Yeah that's probably something I should have mentioned too. Exploits like that make the unengaging combat system even worse, since its not even fun. 

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On 1/31/2020 at 12:48 PM, Bothead said:

I think the large problem with this is that the game is almost always predictable and there's basically no surprises. ...There could also be more weather events that aren't predictable at all. Or when a world is generated, it could have random traits that make some things easier and some things harder.

I like the idea of things being more random. I hate having to deal with the Antlion every summer. He's a fun boss, but I don't want to always have to fight him or appease him.

Maybe have several summer bosses and each summer you get a different one. Make some optional and others not. Same could go for other seasons.

I like the idea off a bit more randomness in world generation. We have a little bit of that in twiggy trees and juicy Berry bushes, but I would love to see more.

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2 hours ago, Crimson Chin said:

Does getting better at almost any other game completely remove challenge? No, but memory helps for sure. There is still some skill required in executing a movement/plan in any other game ...but not in DST. That's what I mean.. by "it should take more skill".. it shouldn't just be counting to 6 in your head and walking backwards a tiny bit. 

I don’t know about that. Dark Souls is always quoted and memed about being a nightmarishly difficult game that requires “skill”, but after playing it for 300 hours I can look away from my screen for all the boss fights and not really even worry about getting hit and the same goes for all the other people who put time. Whether they shake things up and you have to relearn or not, you’re going to get good at it, and you’re going to find a reason to talk about this again. Sandbox games (and not even just sandbox) rely on you making your own fun after a certain point. You can’t just expect yourself to enjoy the experience of doing the same things over and over. Also as a small side, give yourself more credit for thinking kiting is easy, because with my friends I play with, they’ve encountered deerclops at least 18x+ and most of them still would be dead if I didn’t help them kill it. It’s harder than you think for a good chunk of people! 

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59 minutes ago, Nickolai said:

Maybe something like this could change it drastically,

 

I don't think Klei sometimes adds altitude to the game because:                                                                                                                                       1. It doesn't fit well in the course of DST,
2.It wouldn't tune in with the artistic style of the game
3.It would be a lot of glitchy.

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1 minute ago, Fi7iP said:

 

I don't think Klei sometimes adds altitude to the game because:                                                                                                                                       1. It doesn't fit well in the course of DST,
2.It would be a very artistic style of the game.
3.It would be a lot of glitchy.

Fuffles has proved it is possible, the ground is already in 3D and DST has a y coordinate

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8 minutes ago, Kelloggs Dogfry said:

I don’t know about that. Dark Souls is always quoted and memed about being a nightmarishly difficult game that requires “skill”, but after playing it for 300 hours I can look away from my screen for all the boss fights and not really even worry about getting hit and the same goes for all the other people who put time. Whether they shake things up and you have to relearn or not, you’re going to get good at it, and you’re going to find a reason to talk about this again. Sandbox games (and not even just sandbox) rely on you making your own fun after a certain point. You can’t just expect yourself to enjoy the experience of doing the same things over and over. Also as a small side, give yourself more credit for thinking kiting is easy, because with my friends I play with, they’ve encountered deerclops at least 18x+ and most of them still would be dead if I didn’t help them kill it. It’s harder than you think for a good chunk of people! 

I appreciate the compliment :D, but if we compare my... uhh kiting.. "skills" to being able to play dark souls without looking is kind of laughable, its very easy to see here which one really requires more skill. These games have immensely different combat systems and dark souls' is obviously the better one. Now, I'm not sure how many people are able to play dark souls blindfolded, but I'm pretty sure anyone can tell you its at least a tiny bit harder than counting to 6 in your head and slightly walking away from a beefalo. Kiting in DST is memory. I assure you, anyone can do it once they remember how many hits each enemy is. The difference between learning an enemy in dark souls, or a lot of other game's with drastically better combat systems, is that you still have to execute a movement/strategy and can still very well fail. I'm not specifically asking for something as intense as Dark Souls, but just ANYTHING that is more engaging. 

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25 minutes ago, Crimson Chin said:

I appreciate the compliment :D, but if we compare my... uhh kiting.. "skills" to being able to play dark souls without looking is kind of laughable, its very easy to see here which one really requires more skill. These games have immensely different combat systems and dark souls' is obviously the better one. Now, I'm not sure how many people are able to play dark souls blindfolded, but I'm pretty sure anyone can tell you its at least a tiny bit harder than counting to 6 in your head and slightly walking away from a beefalo. Kiting in DST is memory. I assure you, anyone can do it once they remember how many hits each enemy is. The difference between learning an enemy in dark souls, or a lot of other game's with drastically better combat systems, is that you still have to execute a movement/strategy and can still very well fail. I'm not specifically asking for something as intense as Dark Souls, but just ANYTHING that is more engaging. 

In DST people will cheese some bosses, most of those are the harder ones. Is DS you can cheese bosses too. You can even use glitches or unintended interaction in both games.

The same way there are tutorials for DST to make almost everything trivial there are those for DS too.

Killing a beefalo in DST is like killing your slow hollows in DS. Both easy, both requires some basic memory to not get hit. Killing a group of beefalos can be harder than a group of hollows and vice versa depending on what you're using.

Now try to solo B Queen with a hambat to see how many times you'll die trying. BOOM!! We just got the DaRk SoULs oF SuRvIvAl GaMeS.

Want something more engaging in DST? Stop playing safe and risk your life, but you don't want to die in DST so keep on complaining (edit) about difficulty.

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8 hours ago, Shosuko said:

GTA4 is still GTA4, so the game didn't reinvent its self.  League of Legends is still League of Legends even though balance patches and new abilities have altered what is meta.  Gta4 vs Gta5 are two completely different games, such as from DS to DST.

 Okay well Season 1 and 2 of Apex Legends took place on the same map, when Season 3 happened they destroyed the original map and moved us to a brand new planet.

is THIS the kind of change your talking about that DST should have?

I mean crap like that really only works in Free to Play games because I don’t know about you but.. I don’t buy a game because it is One thing.. and then years later they Change it into something completely unrecognizable that I may not even like..

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Only other thing is maybe I am tired of seeing flat world, having hills and stuff like that would make it a little more livelier for basebuilding and thinking of new ways of building and enjoyable pleasing to the eye 3D changes. We been getting a lot of 2D content, seeing the world more advanced of how it would generate would be super awesome.
On the other note from the first post, I would love to see the world having actual changes to weather events, having some sort of actual more life changing threats if not approached well would change our tactics and want to actually build structures we barely built ever. At least for once I would feel like clothing was actually designed for SOMETHING than just a neat little knitknack. Maybe these new updates will make the world changed and new. Something like these changes would actually make this game feel unique than being same old nostalgia we all replay on multiple worlds.
I don't hesitate to spend money on skins since Klei is doing their best, and I hope at least they will change things how this game is! I am slightly tired of everything having to be optional, but I will admit those things are quite neat but gameplay wise new players barely explore new content or are less forced to cause they don't get to explore things that are exciting, for veterans we want something to compete with newer titles that keep coming out, or just to get the expectations to feel like the game could feel more like a survival game. Or just feel less dead.

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1 minute ago, Mantas said:

Only other thing is maybe I am tired of seeing flat world, having hills and stuff like that would make it a little more livelier for basebuilding and thinking of new ways of building and enjoyable pleasing to the eye 3D changes. We been getting a lot of 2D content, seeing the world more advanced of how it would generate would be super awesome.

Omg spot on, may i post this on the Elevation post?

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3 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

In DST people will cheese some bosses, most of those are the harder ones. Is DS you can cheese bosses too. You can even use glitches or unintended interaction in both games.

The same way there are tutorials for DST to make almost everything trivial there are those for DS too.

Killing a beefalo in DST is like killing your slow hollows in DS. Both easy, both requires some basic memory to not get hit. Killing a group of beefalos can be harder than a group of hollows and vice versa depending on what you're using.

Now try to solo B Queen with a hambat to see how many times you'll die trying. BOOM!! We just got the DaRk SoULs oF SuRvIvAl GaMeS.

Want something more engaging in DST? Stop playing safe and risk your life, but you don't want to die in DST so keep on complaining (edit) about difficulty.

What! Of course I don't want to die, that's the entire point of a survival game! Kiting bee queen might be harder than counting to 6 with that beefalo example... but that doesn't make it a fun or engaging combat system.. Most of the DST bosses are just health sponges. And like I said, I think exploits just add to the problem. Why would I suffer through a long boss fight since the combat system isn't fun when I could just cheese a boss? Its such a silly thing to suggest that this is somehow the player's fault. Of course you can create your own fun with sandboxes, but that core experience still should be engaging and fun. I think you need to realize how shallow DST's combat system is, ESPECIALLY when compared to Dark Souls. Difficulty isn't the only thing I'm complaining about here, combat in DST just isn't fun.

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Just now, Crimson Chin said:

What! Of course I don't want to die, that's the entire point of a survival game! Kiting bee queen might be harder than counting to 6 with that beefalo example... but that doesn't make it a fun or engaging combat system.. Most of the DST bosses are just health sponges. And like I said, I think exploits just add to the problem. Why would I suffer through a long boss fight since the combat system isn't fun when I could just cheese a boss? Its such a silly thing to suggest that this is somehow the player's fault. Of course you can create your own fun with sandboxes, but that core experience still should be engaging and fun. I think you need to realize how shallow DST's combat system is, ESPECIALLY when compared to Dark Souls. Difficulty isn't the only thing I'm complaining about here, combat in DST just isn't fun.

Why would you suffer through a long boss in DS when you could cheese it?

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The problem with optional bosses is that they pose no real threat or challenge to the player. Because of the fact that they will sit on the map indefinitely waiting for you to be fully prepared to fight them. And even if you do fight them the risk/reward is not worth it. I mean look at d fly or moosegoose in singleplayer vs in multiplayer. The single player versions are 10x more engaging and more of a threat to the player simply because they are made to act as a threat to the player and seek them out. And obviously if bosses like bequeen and toadstool became more of a threat to the players survival they would be tuned to account for the player having to prepare for those fights in addition to their normal survival.

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3 minutes ago, sudoku said:

The problem with optional bosses is that they pose no real threat or challenge to the player. Because of the fact that they will sit on the map indefinitely waiting for you to be fully prepared to fight them. And even if you do fight them the risk/reward is not worth it. I mean look at d fly or moosegoose in singleplayer vs in multiplayer. The single player versions are 10x more engaging and more of a threat to the player simply because they are made to act as a threat to the player and seek them out. And obviously if bosses like bequeen and toadstool became more of a threat to the players survival they would be tuned to account for the player having to prepare for those fights in addition to their normal survival.

Make it a requirement/threat. Someone comes with the best way to kill it. Becomes repetitive. Back to where we started.

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21 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

Why would you suffer through a long boss in DS when you could cheese it?

I'm absolutely not saying Don't Starve's combat system is better than DST's, if that's what you are implying. They are the same exact thing.

EDIT: Sorry for the confusion. Actually fighting through a long Dark Souls Boss can be rewarding and fun since the combat system is actually engaging... unlike DST's

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1 minute ago, Crimson Chin said:

I'm absolutely not saying DS's combat system is better than DST's, if that's what you are implying. They are the same exact thing.

By DS I meant both Dark Souls and Don't Starve (Together). The same thing you said applies to both.

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5 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

Make it a requirement/threat. Someone comes with the best way to kill it. Becomes repetitive. Back to where we started.

If that boss was fun to fight thanks to a nice combat system, maybe it wouldn't get as repetitive.

3 minutes ago, Sweaper said:

By DS I meant both Dark Souls and Don't Starve (Together). The same thing you said applies to both.

In what ways are they the same at all really? I'd explain why... they aren't... but I would just be repeating myself.

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