Neotuck Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 39 minutes ago, goboking said: I'd still like to see a rocket module in which we can store materials to be dumped in space during missions. Like they did on Futurama? cuz ya, that worked out well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junksteel Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 1 hour ago, goboking said: I'd still like to see a rocket module in which we can store materials to be dumped in space during missions. Greatest suggestion I ever read! I need that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimsontide Posted January 21, 2020 Author Share Posted January 21, 2020 Shove voles aren't cutting it either. I now have 10 wild in a room and they aren't even making a small dent in the MASSIVE amount of regolith that is choking my game out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Crimsontide said: Shove voles aren't cutting it either. I now have 10 wild in a room and they aren't even making a small dent in the MASSIVE amount of regolith that is choking my game out... how much regolith are they eating per cycle? how much regolith do you get from meteor showers? and average that to per cycle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 3 hours ago, Crimsontide said: Shove voles aren't cutting it either. I now have 10 wild in a room and they aren't even making a small dent in the MASSIVE amount of regolith that is choking my game out... Groom them and they will eat 5x more. And breed more of them, which will eat even more yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimsontide Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 17 minutes ago, psusi said: Groom them and they will eat 5x more. And breed more of them, which will eat even more yet. Except that the problem is performance, more voles = poor performance. I'm sure there's some intersection of optimal performance, but at this point I've stopped caring. The game is clearly broken, I'm done with ONI and Klei. I got better things to do than slide-show my way through end-game. I don't understand, Mark of the Ninja was a masterpiece of game design... what happened with ONI!??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Crimsontide said: Except that the problem is performance, more voles = poor performance. I'm sure there's some intersection of optimal performance, but at this point I've stopped caring. Yes, but the same number of voles eating 5x as much = better. 1 hour ago, Crimsontide said: The game is clearly broken No; just the particular way you have been playing isn't working. Change it up. I took nearly a year off after they added rocketry because I felt exactly the same way you do now, only they hadn't yet added shove voles, or when they did I didn't want to start over to get some. This time I pretty much just ignore regolith and it isn't a problem. If you just ignore most of the surface instead of trying to cover the whole thing in bunker doors and auto miners then it can't become a problem. If you do want to cover the whole surface and use auto miners, then you either need a good shove vole ranch ( I'm pretty sure you don't need more than 20 or so groomed shove voles to eat ALL the regolith ( and you can feed the colony from the meat ) or a regolith melter, and don't use rails to move the stuff because rails kind of suck. Or you can just use mechanical airlocks to crush the regolith and forget about the miners and largely the shove voles. Give it a try; it was a game changer for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimsontide Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 15 minutes ago, psusi said: Yes, but the same number of voles eating 5x as much = better. No; just the particular way you have been playing isn't working. Change it up. I took nearly a year off after they added rocketry because I felt exactly the same way you do now, only they hadn't yet added shove voles, or when they did I didn't want to start over to get some. This time I pretty much just ignore regolith and it isn't a problem. If you just ignore most of the surface instead of trying to cover the whole thing in bunker doors and auto miners then it can't become a problem. If you do want to cover the whole surface and use auto miners, then you either need a good shove vole ranch ( I'm pretty sure you don't need more than 20 or so groomed shove voles to eat ALL the regolith ( and you can feed the colony from the meat ) or a regolith melter, and don't use rails to move the stuff because rails kind of suck. Or you can just use mechanical airlocks to crush the regolith and forget about the miners and largely the shove voles. Give it a try; it was a game changer for me. "Yes, but the same number of voles eating 5x as much = better." I don't want to ranch voles, I don't like ranching and up till now I've avoided it completely. I have no intention of starting. I have more than enough food and morale. "No; just the particular way you have been playing isn't working." - Yeah... how dare I actually try to use solar panels, silly me. Why didn't I realize they are just for taking up space in the power menu like ice makers and 1/2 dozen other things in this game... If the only possible way to use solar panels is to ranch the dumbest creature in the game, I'll just go play another game. "This time I pretty much just ignore regolith and it isn't a problem." - Well in my game its reduced it to a crawl. "If you just ignore most of the surface instead of trying to cover the whole thing in bunker doors and auto miners then it can't become a problem." - If I don't play the game it also isn't a problem either. You're solution of 'don't play the game' isn't really a solution... "If you do want to cover the whole surface and use auto miners, then you either need a good shove vole ranch ( I'm pretty sure you don't need more than 20 or so groomed shove voles to eat ALL the regolith ( and you can feed the colony from the meat ) or a regolith melter, and don't use rails to move the stuff because rails kind of suck." - A regolith melter doesn't work either, because it just converts regolith to igneous rock, so instead of 5000t of regolith, I'd have 5000t of igneous rock. I've gained nothing and wasted time/resources. "Or you can just use mechanical airlocks to crush the regolith and forget about the miners and largely the shove voles. Give it a try; it was a game changer for me." - The whole late-game of ONI is a complete and utter mess. None of it makes any sense, there's no rhyme or reason. Its not a challenge, its doesn't require any clever use of mechanics, its just broken. Its a game design disaster. I'm done debugging their game for them, at this point it'd be faster to decompile their code and just fix it for them than find non-sensical exploitive work-arounds. Its just ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodunit Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 I don't get it. There are so many ways to deal with excess regolith. - Feed to voles - melt and convert to power, feed igneous to hatches or store in a single tile in vacuum. - melt and dump magma into void - store in a single tile in vacuum out of the way It's not as big of a issue as it's being made out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 It's clear he just want's an easy fix and wine when he can't get it the way he want's it Just let the guy ragequit so the rest of us can move on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimsontide Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 15 minutes ago, Neotuck said: It's clear he just want's an easy fix and wine when he can't get it the way he want's it Just let the guy ragequit so the rest of us can move on Clearly an easy fix is setting up a massive multi-line full automated conveyor system with integrated cooling, auto diggers, automated integration with blastdoors, etc... The harder fix is of course, just use doors to magically delete it, or just ignore the problem and never use solar panels. /facepalm... 41 minutes ago, whodunit said: Feed to voles Covered that, not interested in setting up a massive vole ranch. I trapped all the wild ones and they're barely making a dent, I don't need the meat, and I don't like ranching. 41 minutes ago, whodunit said: melt and convert to power, feed igneous to hatches or store in a single tile in vacuum Don't need the power, tapped the 6 volcanoes around the map long before breaching the surface. The size of the regolith melter would be enormous to handle the 5000t (and growing) of regolith, in the end there's no way hatches would ever be able to eat that much rock. Voles eat around 3t per meal, stone hatches around 0.14 kg/meal. I would need 22x the number of hatches as I would voles. If 10 or so ranched voles were required, that would mean nearly 220 hatches... there's no way that would be a performance boost of any form. 45 minutes ago, whodunit said: melt and dump magma into void The amount of energy required would be ridiculous. Remember, regolith melting only works because after melting it you then cool it back down to regain 5x the original heat (due to change in SHC). If you don't cool it back down, you don't get the heat back. 47 minutes ago, whodunit said: store in a single tile in vacuum out of the way It has to get there, and the conveyor system required to do so is bringing the game to a screeching halt. But yeah, that is pretty much the option I went with, but its not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodunit Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Crimsontide said: Don't need the power, tapped the 6 volcanoes around the map long before breaching the surface. 1 hour ago, Crimsontide said: The amount of energy required would be ridiculous. So, which statement is true? Either you have tens of kW of excess power from 6 volcanoes or you're barely meeting your needs. Besides it's not like you just dump the magma straight into the void. You reclaim great part of the heat back to heat the next batch of regolith. Also not sure why you keep bringing "5000t", it's not like 5000t regolith rains down every other cycle. Once you take care of the backlog, subsequent showers of regolith are much lower in amount. But like Neotuck said, I guess you just want to rant. I'll stay away from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimsontide Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 46 minutes ago, whodunit said: So, which statement is true? Its not a contradiction. While I have more than enough for my base needs, the amount of power to melt 5000t of regolith would be enormous. A regolith recycling system would be massively large, so much so that again, we have performance issues. 48 minutes ago, whodunit said: Also not sure why you keep bringing "5000t", it's not like 5000t regolith rains down every other cycle. Once you take care of the backlog, subsequent showers of regolith are much lower in amount. No, its only around 20t a cycle on top of the 5000t backlog... clearly a reasonable amount. 1 hour ago, whodunit said: But like Neotuck said, I guess you just want to rant. I'll stay away from now. Late games an unbalanced mess, but I just want to rant? So if I complain about the fun space scanner bug, clearly I'm just ranting. Rocket blast ignoring all physics and just heating up tiles that it can't even touch, simply whining. Heat deletion and heat multiplication bugs, all my fault. Endless mountains of regolith that bring the game to a screeching halt, clearly I just want to rant... Seriously Stockholm Syndrome is alive and well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junksteel Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 7 hours ago, Crimsontide said: clearly I just want to rant... Dude, you're having a breakdown with the game. Take a rest. Most likely no suggestion or advice will turn your frustration off as you don't seem open to try anything at this point. Everyone here acknowledge ONI has its bugs and inconvenient features but it's unlikely people will join this pitchfork mob vibe just because you don't want to ranch. I am having a break myself because of my own reasons. It's ok, dude. You will feel much better towards the game after that and perhaps more inclined to ranch next time? I always come up with different strategy, ideas and designs after a good break. Throwing the game in the trash bin is an option too, but as reasonable as doing it with your salary because you think you'd deserve more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 12 hours ago, Crimsontide said: I don't want to ranch voles, I don't like ranching and up till now I've avoided it completely. I have no intention of starting. I have more than enough food and morale. "I refuse to take option #1 for no rational reason" != the game is broken. 12 hours ago, Crimsontide said: "No; just the particular way you have been playing isn't working." - Yeah... how dare I actually try to use solar panels, silly me. Like I said, you can, you just need to use one of multiple options to deal with the regolith. You can't have your cake and eat it too. 12 hours ago, Crimsontide said: Why didn't I realize they are just for taking up space in the power menu like ice makers and 1/2 dozen other things in this game. Ice makers are very useful in the early and mid game. Much better than the old fan that deleted water and hardly cooled down anything at all. And you are really going to complain about having buildings that you consider useless while you refuse to do anything with any of the animals in the game? Just totally ignore that whole part of the game? 12 hours ago, Crimsontide said: "This time I pretty much just ignore regolith and it isn't a problem." - Well in my game its reduced it to a crawl. It isn't the regolith but apparently buttloads of rails will do that. Again, don't use them. There are better ways to move all of the regolith. 12 hours ago, Crimsontide said: "If you just ignore most of the surface instead of trying to cover the whole thing in bunker doors and auto miners then it can't become a problem." - If I don't play the game it also isn't a problem either. You're solution of 'don't play the game' isn't really a solution... That's your solution, not mine. One of my suggestions was to not bother plastering the whole surface with solar ( you already said you have plenty of power ), but there were others. 12 hours ago, Crimsontide said: Covered that, not interested in setting up a massive vole ranch. I trapped all the wild ones and they're barely making a dent, I don't need the meat, and I don't like ranching. It doesn't take "a massive ranch". A grooming station in a 4x4 room with pneumatic doors to get in on the side and drop regolith in on the top and let an auto miner reach through the door is all it takes. 9 hours ago, Crimsontide said: No, its only around 20t a cycle on top of the 5000t backlog... clearly a reasonable amount. A measly 8 shove voles when groomed will eat 20t per cycle. Yea, you have a good backlog you have accumulated and so it will take some time to get rid of it. It's not the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimsontide Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 3 hours ago, psusi said: "I refuse to take option #1 for no rational reason" != the game is broken. It is broken. If it was just a design issue, I'd lose the game, or be unable to progress. The game engine simply ceases to function and collapses under its own weight. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF BROKEN. If they restricted the number of loaders, or sweepers to some reasonable number and then designed with those limitation in mind that's a different story. When the game is buggy, unresponsive, and unplayable THAT IS BROKEN. 3 hours ago, psusi said: Like I said, you can, you just need to use one of multiple options to deal with the regolith. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It wasn't multiple options, you gave one (manual feeding of voles). The rest are either ridiculous (remember, you did suggest feeding it to hatches /facepalm) or fail to fix the performance problem. 3 hours ago, psusi said: Ice makers are very useful in the early and mid game. Much better than the old fan that deleted water and hardly cooled down anything at all. Ice makers are trash. The strongest early game heat deletion device is atmosuits (stupidly op, and easy to have around cycle 70) followed by the sledgehammer that is the be all and end all of heat delete, aquatuner/steam turbine (easily available around cycle 100, earlier if you want to be aggressive). Just because they were worse doesn't change the fact that they messed up heat (not nearly as bad as space, but still bad). 3 hours ago, psusi said: And you are really going to complain about having buildings that you consider useless while you refuse to do anything with any of the animals in the game? Just totally ignore that whole part of the game? I don't ignore the animals, quite the contrary. What I ignore as best as possible is ranching because I think it completely undermines the resource acquisition part of the game and is poorly designed. It also kills performance. 3 hours ago, psusi said: It isn't the regolith but apparently buttloads of rails will do that. Again, don't use them. There are better ways to move all of the regolith. Manually because handling an extra 10 dupes just to shuttle regolith around would also kill performance? Or are you talking door exploits? So what you're saying is a system designed to move material from A to B, explicitly stated in game text and the wiki, is not to be used, but airlocks (which don't lock air in any meaningful way btw) are the proper way to move material from A to B? But the game isn't broken??? When the devs rename the airlocks to regloith moves, I'll concede the point... 3 hours ago, psusi said: That's your solution, not mine. One of my suggestions was to not bother plastering the whole surface with solar ( you already said you have plenty of power ), but there were others. In part due to solar. I'm primarily volcanoes, nat gas geysers, and solar. So while you are correct, I could just ignore solar and not play that part of the game, I specifically wanted to play around with solar this play through. I could ignore solar, or space, or heck the whole game at this point... How dare I want to actually play the game... silly me, what exceedingly high expectations I have. 3 hours ago, psusi said: It doesn't take "a massive ranch". A grooming station in a 4x4 room with pneumatic doors to get in on the side and drop regolith in on the top and let an auto miner reach through the door is all it takes. No, that only works when you only have 1 or 2 small rocket silos and ignore solar. When you have most of the surface opened up the sheer amount of regolith that needs to be moved requires duplicants, a fair number in fact because the AI is ******ed and moves only a tiny amount each time. Trying to strawman my argument will get you no where. I don't disagree that vole ranching will work (albeit costing much more than you suggest). I just have no intention of doing it. And if that is the ONLY way (short of maybe some buggy airlock exploit) then I'm not interested in playing. Every other system in the game has multiple ways of tackling problems, and this has kept the game interesting. Stating that there is only one, rather obscure method for handling regolith, is poor design. The point of this run through for me was to play around and spend time in the space biome, and so far its been nothing but a catastrophic disaster. Nothing works. Heat transfer bugs, rockets bugs, scanner bus, endless non-stop regolith causing the game to grind to a halt, and just poorly thought out game design across the entire biome. Best part is that none of the errata is documented requiring trial and error with save/reload times exceeding 15min or scouring 2 year old reddit posts and youtube videos when I'd rather be playing a video game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewreckedangle Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Crimsontide said: When the game is buggy, unresponsive, and unplayable THAT IS BROKEN Bethesda would like to know your location 21 hours ago, Crimsontide said: The game is clearly broken, I'm done with ONI and Klei. I got better things to do than slide-show my way through end-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimsontide Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, thewreckedangle said: Bethesda would like to know your location Hehe : ) Yeah there has been worse, no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Crimsontide said: I don't ignore the animals, quite the contrary. What I ignore as best as possible is ranching because I think it completely undermines the resource acquisition part of the game and is poorly designed. It also kills performance. How do you ignore ranching but not animals in general? You mean you only keep wild pacu? I'm around cycle 1000 now and am raching half a dozen slicksters, sage hatches, I don't know how many glum pacu, twenty or so drakeos, probably 20 shove voles ( who spend most of their time starving ), and half a dozen pufts on and off, and don't have any lag. The only thing I use rails for is unloading rockets. It sounds like they cause a lot of lag and do kind of suck in terms of throughput so I avoid them. 5 hours ago, Crimsontide said: It wasn't multiple options, you gave one (manual feeding of voles). The rest are either ridiculous (remember, you did suggest feeding it to hatches /facepalm) or fail to fix the performance problem. Someone else suggested melting it and feeding to hatches, which I agree is a bit extreme. I suggested using sweepers and droppers to move it all into the shove vole ranch instead of rails, or door crushers, which delete 90% of it for no effort once they are set up. This one I think is the best thing since sliced bread. It may feel a little cheaty but it works great. 5 hours ago, Crimsontide said: No, that only works when you only have 1 or 2 small rocket silos and ignore solar. When you have most of the surface opened up the sheer amount of regolith that needs to be moved requires duplicants, a fair number in fact because the AI is ******ed and moves only a tiny amount each time. You said how much regolith falls per cycle and I showed the math for how many shove voles it takes to eat that much. As for moving it, I agree that both manual and rails suck. The other two options are door crushers and auto sweepers + droppers, both of which work just fine. A while back someone posted a thread where they had covered the entire surface in auto sweepers, miners, and droppers and they were able to move all of the regolith to the side and dump it into the shove vole ranch with no lag, and the shove voles easily ate it all. Maybe rails are broken, but there are other options that do work and can let you enjoy the game. If you refuse to use them, then I can't give you too much sympathy. Some I suppose, because rails should work, but oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speckle21 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 3 hours ago, thewreckedangle said: I agree. Take care @Crimsontide We respect your decision to leave. Plenty of great games out there. One of my personal favorites is Rimworld. I suggest taking a look. The mod community for rimworld is amazing and you can bludgeon it into exactly the game you want with enough mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 21 hours ago, Junksteel said: perhaps more inclined to ranch next time? No need to ranch. 25 wild voles (probably even less) is enough to deal with all regolith. Dupes as collectors are fine too. Doing it with rails is broken performance-wise, but not needed. I now only have 4 short rails going into the vole-pen, because dupes are not allowed in there as they would remove the regolith in a circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Gurgel said: I now only have 4 short rails going into the vole-pen, because dupes are not allowed in there as they would remove the regolith in a circle. Don't need rails for that either; just put a pneumatic door in the roof with an auto dropper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, psusi said: Don't need rails for that either; just put a pneumatic door in the roof with an auto dropper. Is that reliable? I sort of expect that voles will slip out on occasion, that is why I did not try that. The other problem is that I have an atmosphere in there to cool the needed auto-miner on the roof. That precludes a door to the outside. Could be solved with some visco-gel and atmosphere up to the dropper though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Just now, Gurgel said: Is that reliable? I sort of expect that voles will slip out on occasion, that is why I did not try that. The door is locked. Debris will fall right through it. I put my auto miner on the floor outside the room and it shoots right through the pneumatic door. I was planning on dripping some water on the floor to keep it cool but haven't bothered yet... it seems to be fine without it for at least a hundred cycles. I may have deconstructed and reconstructed it at some point but I don't remember now... been running for hundreds of cycles, but I am not capturing all of the regolith and feeding it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobucles Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 The space layer offers an ability to delete gases and liquids. If those types of resources can be arbitrarily deleted without a second thought, why can't solids be given similar love? IMO there should absolutely be a brainless "item deleter" to take care of anything. It doesn't mean that deleting the resource is efficient or wise, but it definitely should be easy. One idea to delete debris is to load it into a slingshot and shoot it into space. Poof, it's gone, never to be seen again. No dupes got injured, and there's no need for weird setups or forcing players into gameplay styles that they may not enjoy. It's just a fun simple trash disposal and I suspect that veterans could get some good use out of it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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