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What makes character con good/interesting?


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I love downsides that affect your entire playtime as a character and demand a change of playstyle. Warly and Wormwood are great examples of this, as a Warly player has to memorize more recipes just so he can stay alive, and a Wormwood player can't just chaff down blue caps or pierogis anymore; You have to rely on poop, or god forbid a healing salve.

This is going to sound really egotistical on my part, but Im going to use the 049 mod here as a decent example of a harsh downside done right (or so I think / have been told.) If you don't care for this, stop reading here.

Spoiler

049 has 72% run speed. This may sound absolutely crippling at first, but this harsh downside is offput by his powerful upside (lethal touch), as it should be.

While you may originally think that a one-shot mechanic will make you untouchable, there are a handful of situations that 049 has to watch out for, which greatly impacts his playstyle and how he interacts with the environment:

-You are much more likely to get swarmed and stunlocked by spiders and hounds. One bite from a spider is usually enough to get you stunlocked if you're already being chased by a good amount.

-Bosses now pose a much greater threat as you can't kite them as tightly, usually leaving you with the option to tank. In the case of Bearger, it's a really bad idea to use melee against him at a speed that low, so you have to rely on treeguards (tbf most people do that anyway.)

-The Magiluminesance becomes much more valuable. It's actually a decent idea to use it for general everyday tasks and getting from point A to point B. This however comes at a cost of farming more nightmare fuel than Maxwell.

-Since tanking looks more favorable than kiting with decreased run speed, the Night Armor stops being a paperweight and starts being actually viable because it doesn't slow you down even more. Plus it goes well with the fact that you need to farm nm fuel for the magil.

While you may have temporarily forgotten where you are and thought you started reading a guide to slowness, my point is that one single number stat change can mean all the difference in the world and greatly impacts your playstyle.

Also slow runspeed is untapped potential in terms of a vanilla downside, but there would need to be a really good upside that compliments it, otherwise the character just becomes boring and annoying to play.

 

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7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

How is saying that everything someone posts is incorrect not a direct insult? 

Thats literally the same thing as saying everything I post is meaningless non-sense.

Which translates well into: Everything I say is a waste of your time and I have no purpose even being here.

Image result for just because i disagree with you doesn't mean i hate you

(image ctto)

If we point out that stuff that you say is incorrect, please, by the very least, at least try to see where you went wrong. It's not an insult to be incorrect. It's normal.

We find nothing wrong with you, just the things that you said, and it's only natural for us to correct the wrong things we find to avoid misinformation. We do not actually take offense to you. 

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I'm ignoring the slapfight, I just came in to say that as a part-time Wolfgang main his wimpy form and the higher hunger drain that pulls you toward it is his primary drawback to me, not his slightly higher sanity drain. Certainly some groups work like a well-oiled machine and keep the food supply abundant enough that you don't need to worry about ever entering wimpy form, but if you do get wimpy and need to hunt your own food to fix the problem it's a pain when you do less damage than Wendy.

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Well this blew up.

First of all, I want to say sorry to @Desblat for being rude and condescending to you. When I saw the Willow point I, well for lack of a better word, flamed up, readied my porcupine-ish spikes and defended my girl. Sorry again.

Second of all, I want to thank @Misa22 for pointing out my mistake and turning me from the direction of becoming yet another Edgy Rick. Thanks man, you help me on a better path.

After all that, well you know why I'm back again, guys. My eternal nemesis hath come'th and I shall fight till I drop!

Just kidding. I believe @Frashaw27 has already said what I needed to say.

@Mike23Ua, if you see this, just know that well... the things you complain about aren't actually that bad.

Call me if any of y'all needed some research power XD

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13 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

How is saying that everything someone posts is incorrect not a direct insult? 

Thats literally the same thing as saying everything I post is meaningless non-sense.

Which translates well into: Everything I say is a waste of your time and I have no purpose even being here.

No it only means that all the facts that you stated in that post in false. How is that an insult?

And I agree with him because 1) Any character can get Nightmare Fuel in day 1 if they want to, 2) You wouldn't understand about people killing Maxwell's puppets in public because you yourself stated that you DON'T play in public server because you play on Xbox, and 3) Yes Wurt is also a great resource gatherer but Maxwell can do the same thing so there's no reason to say that he's not. Keep in mind that Wurt is a DLC character and was only released recently, before that Maxwell is your only option.

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18 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Just because someone killed your shadow doesn't mean that maxwell is bad, he is actually one of the fastest gatherer characters, only limited by 4 shadows and the tasty nightmare fuel.

Ivo has a point Maxwell is VERY good if you know how to use him. Yes he may be annoying if you are playing with pub plebs, but he is still a good character.

16 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Uh huh sure- But When Another  Player whacks Abigail she either KILLS Them or she reverts back into her flower form.

NOT a few flower petals that I’ll need to go and gather more resources in order to ReSummon.

And THAT is the Difference Between WENDY & MAXWELL. 

Please though- Do Insult me some more. 

Maxwell needs a fix why can’t we all just agree on something for once? Dang. You literally just admitted yourself you don’t even PLAY Maxwell..

Dude.... You just got FLEXED on by @Swag Master69 :D 

That's hilarious!

11 hours ago, NormalPinkerton said:

Dude again..... Got absolutely FLEXED on.... :D 

@Mike23Ua

10 hours ago, Canis said:

I love downsides that affect your entire playtime as a character and demand a change of playstyle. Warly and Wormwood are great examples of this, as a Warly player has to memorize more recipes just so he can stay alive, and a Wormwood player can't just chaff down blue caps or pierogis anymore; You have to rely on poop, or god forbid a healing salve.

This is going to sound really egotistical on my part, but Im going to use the 049 mod here as a decent example of a harsh downside done right (or so I think / have been told.) If you don't care for this, stop reading here.

  Reveal hidden contents

049 has 72% run speed. This may sound absolutely crippling at first, but this harsh downside is offput by his powerful upside (lethal touch), as it should be.

While you may originally think that a one-shot mechanic will make you untouchable, there are a handful of situations that 049 has to watch out for, which greatly impacts his playstyle and how he interacts with the environment:

-You are much more likely to get swarmed and stunlocked by spiders and hounds. One bite from a spider is usually enough to get you stunlocked if you're already being chased by a good amount.

-Bosses now pose a much greater threat as you can't kite them as tightly, usually leaving you with the option to tank. In the case of Bearger, it's a really bad idea to use melee against him at a speed that low, so you have to rely on treeguards (tbf most people do that anyway.)

-The Magiluminesance becomes much more valuable. It's actually a decent idea to use it for general everyday tasks and getting from point A to point B. This however comes at a cost of farming more nightmare fuel than Maxwell.

-Since tanking looks more favorable than kiting with decreased run speed, the Night Armor stops being a paperweight and starts being actually viable because it doesn't slow you down even more. Plus it goes well with the fact that you need to farm nm fuel for the magil.

While you may have temporarily forgotten where you are and thought you started reading a guide to slowness, my point is that one single number stat change can mean all the difference in the world and greatly impacts your playstyle.

Also slow runspeed is untapped potential in terms of a vanilla downside, but there would need to be a really good upside that compliments it, otherwise the character just becomes boring and annoying to play.

 

Thank you for staying on topic lol

(That's kinda hypocritical of me to say :D )

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11 hours ago, Canis said:

I love downsides that affect your entire playtime as a character and demand a change of playstyle. Warly and Wormwood are great examples of this, as a Warly player has to memorize more recipes just so he can stay alive, and a Wormwood player can't just chaff down blue caps or pierogis anymore; You have to rely on poop, or god forbid a healing salve.

This is going to sound really egotistical on my part, but Im going to use the 049 mod here as a decent example of a harsh downside done right (or so I think / have been told.) If you don't care for this, stop reading here.

  Reveal hidden contents

049 has 72% run speed. This may sound absolutely crippling at first, but this harsh downside is offput by his powerful upside (lethal touch), as it should be.

While you may originally think that a one-shot mechanic will make you untouchable, there are a handful of situations that 049 has to watch out for, which greatly impacts his playstyle and how he interacts with the environment:

-You are much more likely to get swarmed and stunlocked by spiders and hounds. One bite from a spider is usually enough to get you stunlocked if you're already being chased by a good amount.

-Bosses now pose a much greater threat as you can't kite them as tightly, usually leaving you with the option to tank. In the case of Bearger, it's a really bad idea to use melee against him at a speed that low, so you have to rely on treeguards (tbf most people do that anyway.)

-The Magiluminesance becomes much more valuable. It's actually a decent idea to use it for general everyday tasks and getting from point A to point B. This however comes at a cost of farming more nightmare fuel than Maxwell.

-Since tanking looks more favorable than kiting with decreased run speed, the Night Armor stops being a paperweight and starts being actually viable because it doesn't slow you down even more. Plus it goes well with the fact that you need to farm nm fuel for the magil.

While you may have temporarily forgotten where you are and thought you started reading a guide to slowness, my point is that one single number stat change can mean all the difference in the world and greatly impacts your playstyle.

Also slow runspeed is untapped potential in terms of a vanilla downside, but there would need to be a really good upside that compliments it, otherwise the character just becomes boring and annoying to play.

 

Yep, being very slow will change the way you fight entirely, changes gameplay, great downside!

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This is really about opinions and preferences. I always play Wes because I like harder games overall. He's a basic characters with no perks and only flaws so I don't feel I have any specific advantage in any given situation.

When I started playing I didn't know characters had powers etc. I only thought it was just about skins & backstory and I just fell in love regardless. I can never play anyone else.

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8 hours ago, ComteHarebourgs said:

This is really about opinions and preferences. I always play Wes because I like harder games overall. He's a basic characters with no perks and only flaws so I don't feel I have any specific advantage in any given situation.

When I started playing I didn't know characters had powers etc. I only thought it was just about skins & backstory and I just fell in love regardless. I can never play anyone else.

Wes does have a perk though; his balloons brighten up what would otherwise be a dull base. Morale-boosting is important.

22 hours ago, Canis said:

I love downsides that affect your entire playtime as a character and demand a change of playstyle. Warly and Wormwood are great examples of this, as a Warly player has to memorize more recipes just so he can stay alive, and a Wormwood player can't just chaff down blue caps or pierogis anymore; You have to rely on poop, or god forbid a healing salve.

 

That certainly is a playstyle you can use for Warly, but many Warly players I've seen generally memorize only 3 recipes: meaty stew, meatballs, and volt goat jelly. A meaty stew can keep your hunger up long enough for the 1.75-day recipe handicap to wear off, and you can get around that handicap with meatballs alone by chowing on about 3 meatballs in one sitting so that you're not restarting the handicap timer.

Don't get me wrong. I think it would be fun if what you're saying is actually how Warly has to be played, but hunger-wise, this handicap is super easy; barely an inconvenience. 
 

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6 hours ago, Webber is bes said:

Webber;-;

No really am I being high I dont see him anywhere

Webber's con is fun as it's tied to his pro. If you find the spider mine setpiece... well you know what happens.

Another one of his con not told about in his character selection screen is the fact that he has the lowest amount of sanity which is both a pro and a con. Going insane? A few sanity stuff and you're good. Too sane? Eat a green cap and you're good.

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On 1/14/2020 at 10:40 AM, Desblat said:

Wickerbottom. No sleeping, needs fresh food. Insomnia cuts out content, no tents, no sleeping bags, bad design.

I don't see how locking out sleeping for Wickerbottom is "bad design" or "cuts out content" anymore than Wormwood's healing issue is.

Sure, Wormwood can partake in eating pierogies for the values of hunger and sanity just like Wickerbottom, but in the grand scheme of things, most of the available crockpot dishes become meatballs of varying magnitudes in the eyes of a Wormwood player, with some exceptions (Jellybeans, Warly's dishes, etc...). Dragonpies, pierogies, trailmix and the like become unnecessary, almost as unnecessary as a tent is to Wickerbottom.

I can understand how most people will view Wickerbottom's penalty as "uncreative" when Wormwood's is practically a Maxwell-esque challenge due to his disadvantage being one that can lead to his undoing, but in most cases, you will use your tent when you are on less-than-desireable health, sanity or both. In short, they both have "cut out content" and they both have one less lifeline to rely on.

To me, they are both two sides of the same coin when it comes to healing; Wormwood will likely pick sleeping in a tent to recover health and Wickerbottom will likely turn to eating healing foods (or both will go for healing items, which is fine too). I wouldn't call Wickerbottom's insomnia "bad design" either, as no other survivors even touch the subject of sleeping in any way, shape or form (unless you count hunger capacity as a benefit for sleeping longer). If you ask me, I'd say this is a creative design of a disadvantage, much more so than having a trio of monster-characters sharing essentially the same downside.

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mime.

but seriously, i think it's less based on gameplay (when it comes to the interesting part, anyways) and more based on design. since it's the first thing you see, it can draw you to a character before you even know their stats.

for gameplay, it really depends. what is your play style? what level of difficulty do you want? what abilities do you think you'll enjoy? I think it's ultimately subjective. I personally think that Wurt is one of the most interesting characters based on her design and gameplay. it makes me excited for the next batch of reworks.  

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On 1/14/2020 at 6:07 AM, Mike23Ua said:

Wormwoods no Food healing is a Non-Issue. Build a Tent or a Siesta-Lean-To, Wear Armor, carry buckets of poop, OR heal using Healing Slaves (your best choice for on the go action probably)

 

My profile picture says it all... 

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On 1/14/2020 at 4:50 AM, Mike23Ua said:

But Maxwell.. his biggest con is Himself, the dude is supposed to be the “Puppet Master” & he can’t even properly manage to summon shadows of himself that other players can’t smack in one hit & destroy.

This is like saying Willow is bad because bernie can die.  Yeah, it's annoying that other people can do this, but you have to keep in mind other characters don't even have shadows to begin with.  If you're going to assume that everyone you play with is a troll, then winona is bad because people can destroy catapults, willow is bad because people can steal bernie, wendy is bad because people can steal abi's flower, wolfgang is bad because other people can eat all the food and make you starve, wick is bad because people can burn all the reeds, etc.  If someone is trolling then literally every character is bad, not just max.  The OP assumed that the people you're playing with arent going to try and screw you over, which is the case 9/10 times.  Not playing a character and actively saying they're the worst in the whole game just because of a minor pet peeve isn't really a good argument.  Shadows aren't even that expensive either, especially when you can go permanently insane with 2 duelists and 1 harvester to farm nightmare fuel, meaning the only "hard to get" materials are tier 1 tool, which is like... its tier 1 tools. 

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3 hours ago, Bronzebot said:

I don't see how locking out sleeping for Wickerbottom is "bad design" or "cuts out content" anymore than Wormwood's healing issue is.

Sure, Wormwood can partake in eating pierogies for the values of hunger and sanity just like Wickerbottom, but in the grand scheme of things, most of the available crockpot dishes become meatballs of varying magnitudes in the eyes of a Wormwood player, with some exceptions (Jellybeans, Warly's dishes, etc...). Dragonpies, pierogies, trailmix and the like become unnecessary, almost as unnecessary as a tent is to Wickerbottom.

I can understand how most people will view Wickerbottom's penalty as "uncreative" when Wormwood's is practically a Maxwell-esque challenge due to his disadvantage being one that can lead to his undoing, but in most cases, you will use your tent when you are on less-than-desireable health, sanity or both. In short, they both have "cut out content" and they both have one less lifeline to rely on.

To me, they are both two sides of the same coin when it comes to healing; Wormwood will likely pick sleeping in a tent to recover health and Wickerbottom will likely turn to eating healing foods (or both will go for healing items, which is fine too). I wouldn't call Wickerbottom's insomnia "bad design" either, as no other survivors even touch the subject of sleeping in any way, shape or form (unless you count hunger capacity as a benefit for sleeping longer). If you ask me, I'd say this is a creative design of a disadvantage, much more so than having a trio of monster-characters sharing essentially the same downside.

Look I’m just gonna say it- I’ve never seen an Old Lady past her 60’s have trouble with not being able to sleep... usually it’s the other way around. They can’t help but fall asleep at random occasions & sometimes in the middle of conversations.

Would be hilarious if Wickers Rework has her randomly falling asleep.. (though that would probably get really annoying really fast.)

But if a SMITE god can do it an MOBA game then.. I’m pretty sure if Klei wanted to do something like that With Wicker they would find a way.

———————————

The content in question however that people say Wicker is locked out of- Isn’t in any way shape or form similar to Wormwoods, Wormwoods is a con that has a simple workaround-

Wickerbottoms is a flaw in Game Design that HAS NO WORKAROUND

TL:DR Wickerbottom can’t sleep, therefore she can’t Sleep next to a WintersFeast Tree to get the free gifts every other character in the game can.

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1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

The content in question however that people say Wicker is locked out of- Isn’t in any way shape or form similar to Wormwoods, Wormwoods is a con that has a simple workaround-

Wickerbottoms is a flaw in Game Design that HAS NO WORKAROUND

TL:DR Wickerbottom can’t sleep, therefore she can’t Sleep next to a WintersFeast Tree to get the free gifts every other character in the game can.

There is a workaround, though. If you desperately need winterfeast gifts as Wickerbottom, you can be put to sleep by cooking a mandrake or eating mandrake raw/cooked/soup. Doing so by the tree at night will give you the gift, just the way it works for other characters. Mandrakes are limited when the world is generated, but more can be obtained from the lootstash by defeating Klaus, along with more gifts that you were working towards in the first place.

And even then, you don't have to sleep under the tree in the first place to get any of the items that the gifts contain. All items are obtainable through other means, the only RNG-based ones being the tam & cane from McTusk, gears and ruins gems from the ruins or tumbleweeds, and the panflute from Klaus' loot stash.

Every other character has a way easier time getting those winterfeast gifts, but Wickerbottom is not locked out from getting the gifts or their contents.

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1 minute ago, Bronzebot said:

There is a workaround, though. If you desperately need winterfeast gifts as Wickerbottom, you can be put to sleep by cooking a mandrake or eating mandrake raw/cooked/soup. Doing so by the tree at night will give you the gift, just the way it works for other characters. Mandrakes are limited when the world is generated, but more can be obtained from the lootstash by defeating Klaus, along with more gifts that you were working towards in the first place.

And even then, you don't have to sleep under the tree in the first place to get any of the items that the gifts contain. All items are obtainable through other means, the only RNG-based ones being the tam & cane from McTusk, gears and ruins gems from the ruins or tumbleweeds, and the panflute from Klaus' loot stash.

Every other character has a way easier time getting those winterfeast gifts, but Wickerbottom is not locked out from getting the gifts or their contents.

Doesn’t that just seem like too much hassle to bother with though? I mean wouldn’t it instead be much much easier to just give Wicker the option of sleeping within a certain radius of a WintersFeast Tree to get the gift but Without actually gaining the Benefits of a good nights sleep?, Usually when I Cook or Eat mandrakes there’s some  highly annoying individual who screams at me through their headset to quote “Stop wasting the mandrakes you dumb son of..”

 

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9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Doesn’t that just seem like too much hassle to bother with though? I mean wouldn’t it instead be much much easier to just give Wicker the option of sleeping within a certain radius of a WintersFeast Tree to get the gift but Without actually gaining the Benefits of a good nights sleep?, Usually when I Cook or Eat mandrakes there’s some  highly annoying individual who screams at me through their headset to quote “Stop wasting the mandrakes you dumb son of..”

It would be a lot easier, sure, but downsides exist to limit or handicap the characters. I think it's great that there already exists a way to get the only character who can't (naturally) sleep to actually sleep for the sake of this one feature in this event. I'm pretty sure it would be gamebreaking for her to be able to sleep just for the sake of this event, considering we have yet to uncover the lore behind her insomnia. Being put to sleep is a pretty good excuse for someone with insomnia to uh... sleep.

Besides, if you are playing with others, you can always ask them to sleep under the tree for you.

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a good pro is something that gives the character a unique play style or builds on one in an interesting way, however it must not be an annoying one to use such as you must defeat fuel weaver to use it. or something that is OP such as 049 having wx speed buff. 

a good con must counter balance this to avoid overuse or actually lock the player into using this : warly food preference makes him much more exposed to using more/new crackpot recipes, whereas wormwoods living log recipe is massively op but offset by his health intake being fractured not only does this make his craftable item much more weaker but locks him into a much more pacifistic platstyle ( i think this is kinda negligible with addition to wortox on your team)

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1 hour ago, Bronzebot said:

It would be a lot easier, sure, but downsides exist to limit or handicap the characters. I think it's great that there already exists a way to get the only character who can't (naturally) sleep to actually sleep for the sake of this one feature in this event. I'm pretty sure it would be gamebreaking for her to be able to sleep just for the sake of this event, considering we have yet to uncover the lore behind her insomnia. Being put to sleep is a pretty good excuse for someone with insomnia to uh... sleep.

Besides, if you are playing with others, you can always ask them to sleep under the tree for you.

But what's stopping klei to give Wicker the option to just lay down on a mat without gaining/losing any stats though? She can literally just lay on the ground and "fake sleep" to get the gifts instead of having a backwards workaround which requires you to farm Klaus.

It makes even less sense when you consider the fact that Wigfrid can eat hallowed nights candy even though her perk flat out says she can only eat meat. 

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I don't know if it's a good idea but i thought about upside/downside which is scared/encouraging, that means they would gain more sanity and make sanity go up when near other players also really small damage multiplier. And when far from other players his sanity would go down and damage multiplier will be smaller. Also someone mentioned somewhere the clumsy downside which would make character to drop crafted item on the ground sometimes.

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1 hour ago, Kuba5565 said:

I don't know if it's a good idea but i thought about upside/downside which is scared/encouraging, that means they would gain more sanity and make sanity go up when near other players also really small damage multiplier. And when far from other players his sanity would go down and damage multiplier will be smaller. Also someone mentioned somewhere the clumsy downside which would make character to drop crafted item on the ground sometimes.

Yeah but Clumsy doesn’t sound fun at all it just sounds annoying as hell TBH- “Doggies are Approaching..” 

You- “Opps I dropped my Spear and my Football Helmet fell off my head, Clumsy Me Hehe!”

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