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How would you improve the fighting system?


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On 12/29/2019 at 2:04 PM, CameoAppearance said:

Making enemies - bosses especially - able to shove movable-but-indestructible items aside, and pathing that would allow them to back up and go around immovable, non-smashable structures.

Then how will people fight bosses who want to build systems of destruction rather than pressing f to fight?  Just because your playstyle is to fight things with weapons doesn't mean you have to ruin the game for people who like playing the game differently.  Hard to say pressing F to fight is the "intended way" now that we got Winona and her catapults...

I'm pretty sure there is no pleasing these type of people anyway...  Anything that violates the purity of -their- desired experience is problematic -to them- when in reality how -I- fight a boss means nothing for how -you- fight a boss.  So swing your sticks, meanwhile I'ma build a wall, a dozen catapults, utilize flingo's freeze, migrate beefalos, set up spider dens, ect ect ect...  You can't stop people from exploiting the game world, but none of this stops you from pressing F to fight if that is all you want to do...  Its not an either / or point of game design, we can have it both ways and that's okay...  The game has made it this far and game world exploitation has been a part of it this entire time...

10 hours ago, Terribad said:

More ranged monsters! Is it just Mactusk, bishops, gem deer, and splumonkeys? This will bring darts, boomerangs, and staves all into play, as well as additional tactics and uses for pig/bunny/lobster allies. 

Even though the Mactusk is trivial for me these days, that has to be my favorite set of monsters. Their behavior is awesome. Mactusk shouldn't run back home so quick, and should be a little quicker to turn and keep firing at his prey. But just... So cool how they behave on the hunt.

Imagine if other monsters used or recruited some ranged stuff. The world would become fun and dangerous all over again.

I don't think ranged enemies will make ranged weapons more popular.  Really I think the ranged weapons are at a good spot.  The boomerang is cheap but low damage, useful for getting aggro from some mobs.  The blow gun is great dps but costly.  Incredible burst damage if you put some time into farming them.  The rest are status effect based, so they are effective as much as those status effects are useful.  That is probably the biggest problem is just that the status effects aren't super useful.  If more monsters changed due to status effects like Goats did we'd see these items more often.

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Many MANY things in this game I have noticed can be exploited by simply just walking far enough away from it that it’s attacks don’t hit you.

#1 Example- You should NOT be able to Outrun Insanity Monsters like Crawling Horrors and Terrorbeaks if your already 100% Insane, those things should probably have new powers to disappear into the ground and then teleport somewhere else to pop up and attack you, Instead it’s not like this get far enough away from them and they’ll Unspawn to give you some breathing room long enough to restore sanity to acceptable levels.

#2- Example MOBS the biggest culprits for this are Bees, Killer Bees, and Spiders- I don’t even use a bee keeper hat because all you need to do is run in a straight line so they follow you in a straight line and then wack them with a simple axe 3x killing each one of them, If they attempt to sting you and fail they always retreat and another bee in that same line up attempts it’s attack, This same thing happens with Spiders, What I would LOVE to see is their A.I. updated to be smart enough to circle around and attempt to surround you.. Rather than being able to solve all your problems simply just by running in a straight line.

As far as actual Combat goes- the game is missing some enemy Variety when it comes to attacks, For example look at Shipwrecked- Shipwrecked had two enemy types that changed the way we approached things, Palm Tree Guardians would hurl coconut projectiles towards you.. something that Tree guardians and Birchnut Guardians currently do not.

A getting hit by a Spider Warriors attack was also a lot more deadly in Shipwrecked because it inflicted your character with a venomous Damage over Time Bleed Out effect- which Bleed out your Health core until you could craft an Anti-Venom. The Anti-Venom only stopped the DoT, it Did NOT restore your health cores.

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9 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Then how will people fight bosses who want to build systems of destruction rather than pressing f to fight?  Just because your playstyle is to fight things with weapons doesn't mean you have to ruin the game for people who like playing the game differently.  Hard to say pressing F to fight is the "intended way" now that we got Winona and her catapults... 

Dude, I don't think getting a boss stuck on a wall is, like, the thinking man's version of DS combat either. I didn't say that with the intention that improving mob pathing would force everybody to face bosses head-on and tank them to death in melee combat, I just don't think otherwise dangerous mobs should be easily rendered helpless by the scenery, especially naturally generated scenery like cave columns. I have no problem with taking advantage of additional mobs or moving them to the site of the fight, or setting up flingomatics and catapults.

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28 minutes ago, CameoAppearance said:

Dude, I don't think getting a boss stuck on a wall is, like, the thinking man's version of DS combat either. I didn't say that with the intention that improving mob pathing would force everybody to face bosses head-on and tank them to death in melee combat, I just don't think otherwise dangerous mobs should be easily rendered helpless by the scenery, especially naturally generated scenery like cave columns. I have no problem with taking advantage of additional mobs or moving them to the site of the fight, or setting up flingomatics and catapults.

Then what do we build?  Because right now in the game we have certain structures and obstacles we can use.  Some of these are good for some mobs, others are good for others, its not 1 size fits all.  DS has never been a game where you only fight things yourself, like some Dark Souls simulator or something.  Even without walls, flingomatics, lureplants, star caller staff, fossils, catapults, pan flutes, ect we can still lure hounds into beefalos and bosses into trees until tree guards spawn and fight them...

The world has ever been about forcing you to fight something in single, hand to hand combat.  You can drop 20 some spider nests and lure the spiders to kill Bee Queen 100% for you, and people were up in arms about a wall / pathing method that still required you to fight her, spending some 7-8 bee hats, 4-5 dark swords, 30+ perogies, and 2-3 game days doing it...

If you want to try and best every boss in single combat, unaided by what you consider "exploits" go for it.  That's no reason to take alternate methods out of the game.

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44 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Then what do we build?  Because right now in the game we have certain structures and obstacles we can use.  Some of these are good for some mobs, others are good for others, its not 1 size fits all.  DS has never been a game where you only fight things yourself, like some Dark Souls simulator or something.  Even without walls, flingomatics, lureplants, star caller staff, fossils, catapults, pan flutes, ect we can still lure hounds into beefalos and bosses into trees until tree guards spawn and fight them...

The world has ever been about forcing you to fight something in single, hand to hand combat.  You can drop 20 some spider nests and lure the spiders to kill Bee Queen 100% for you, and people were up in arms about a wall / pathing method that still required you to fight her, spending some 7-8 bee hats, 4-5 dark swords, 30+ perogies, and 2-3 game days doing it...

If you want to try and best every boss in single combat, unaided by what you consider "exploits" go for it.  That's no reason to take alternate methods out of the game.

Did you even read what I said?? I specifically said I didn't want people to have to only fight things themselves. All I said was that I didn't like getting bosses stuck on walls as a combat strategy, particularly not when they're too busy running into the wall to attack you. I said nothing about sleep items or freezing or lureplants or staves and I specifically said I was okay with catapults and flingomatics and using mobs (such as beefalo, treeguards, and spiders) as backup.

Either address your arguments to the person you're actually talking to instead of quoting me and then arguing against someone else's position, or learn the difference between "I think it should be harder to prevent bosses from freely moving around or coming within reach of you while you're fighting them without using an immobilising item like a panflute or ice staff" and "I think the only acceptable way to fight a boss is to tank it in single combat".

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18 minutes ago, CameoAppearance said:

Did you even read what I said?? I specifically said I didn't want people to have to only fight things themselves. All I said was that I didn't like getting bosses stuck on walls as a combat strategy, particularly not when they're too busy running into the wall to attack you. I said nothing about sleep items or freezing or lureplants or staves and I specifically said I was okay with catapults and flingomatics and using mobs (such as beefalo, treeguards, and spiders) as backup.

Either address your arguments to the person you're actually talking to instead of quoting me and then arguing against someone else's position, or learn the difference between "I think it should be harder to prevent bosses from freely moving around or coming within reach of you while you're fighting them without using an immobilising item like a panflute or ice staff" and "I think the only acceptable way to fight a boss is to tank it in single combat".

Wall, lureplant, end table, fossile, pond, cave pillar, grave stone, what's the difference?

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7 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Wall, lureplant, end table, fossile, pond, cave pillar, grave stone, what's the difference?

Walls can be broken.

Lureplants can be killed/spawn annoying pests.

End tables need a blueprint which can only be gained by smashing the creepy version with 2 hammers.

Fossils are require you to keep farming fuel weaver or use up all the fossils in your world.

Ponds, unless you are nin the pond biome, are usually not together. They also spawn annoying pests.

Cave pillars are random.

Grave stones are random.

Lol don't kill me XD

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Stop making raids bosses because they suck, Press F 4 times, dodge and repeat for 24 minutes is not fun or hard.

I know that they made it thinking about how 4+ players would have it very easy but you're most likely to fight bosees alone, it's hard to convince people to do your thing.

Bosses should be more like the fuelweaver or klaus.

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29 minutes ago, Booklover said:

Walls can be broken.

Lureplants can be killed/spawn annoying pests.

End tables need a blueprint which can only be gained by smashing the creepy version with 2 hammers.

Fossils are require you to keep farming fuel weaver or use up all the fossils in your world.

Ponds, unless you are nin the pond biome, are usually not together. They also spawn annoying pests.

Cave pillars are random.

Grave stones are random.

Lol don't kill me XD

Obviously they are different things - yet every single one can be used as an obstacle for boss fights.

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Remove force attack and replace it with just an attack button instead. In the PS Vita version of Don’t Starve you are able to preform an attack even without a target which I found very cool.

Give most mobs more than one attack.

Make most mobs attacks AOE in a realistic way like a moose/goose is attack would hit most of the stuff close in front of it and not just a single spider lmao what a joke

Make stuff like pigmen or hounds jump over walls, statues, and random stuff like that then you can actually feel threatened when you pick a fight with them

Make mobs have random variation to their health and attack period per attack.

Allow both players and mobs to be able to attack while moving.

Add ranged weapons like a bow and arrow which the player must actually aim to fire, think the forge’s special attacks for the blowdart and don’t make them like heat seeking missles which always 100% hit their target LOL

Make each weapon having their own range at what they can hit mobs at.

Make players swing attacks hit everything very close in front of the player though it would depend mostly on the weapons attack animations and its range.

Add stuff like shields with a shield slot and you hold a button to block. You must be facing the direction of the mob attacking you to actually block the attack and you would be able to move slowly while blocking. Some attacks could be unblockable

Different types of weapons have different attack animations and effects like a spear being a piercing attack and hitting mobs in a straight line with good range while something like a hammer makes the player bash the mob maybe knocking it back a little or giving a chance to stun it.

Add sprinting or dashing then the player can quickly move while in combat or quickly reposition themself at the cost of hunger or increased hunger drain. Most mobs should also have abilities like this too like lunge attacks.

 

That would make combat more interesting for sure and even PvP as well, right now combat is boring and lame asf lol

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It would be cool if weapons had a bit more variance.  Giving them range, attack speed, and aoe properties would give more levers to give us reasons to craft different weapons based on our fight.  Fighting hounds or spiders would be a lot better with even a moderate AOE effect, and having a higher damage and range, lower attack speed spear could make them much better for fights with a lot of kiting.  This would be a pretty awesome advancement in the game.

However only Wolfgang and Wigfrid are combat based characters.  Does it really make sense for the other survivors to use these?

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21 minutes ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Remove force attack and replace it with just an attack button instead. In the PS Vita version of Don’t Starve you are able to preform an attack even without a target which I found very cool.

While this wouldn't be bad, the current attack system is fine as is. It works well for a game so that you don't have to manually do every attack so that you don't have to guess and find out you weren't actually hitting something. The perspective of DST doesn't allow for precision that a full 3d game would, so the current system of the computer attacking helps out a lot. If you are suggesting that it would be like consoles and offer button prompts for each mob, then that would also just be unnecessarily annoying.

25 minutes ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Make stuff like pigmen or hounds jump over walls, statues, and random stuff like that then you can actually feel threatened when you pick a fight with them

Oh boy, time to make walls even more useless! Even if we ignore that walls for actual defense are rarely use already, this would just completely negate that purpose since they could just ignore it. If you tried to make a sort of zoo? Then you couldn't make those mobs zooable. tried to block off their access to you so you could get a resource? Nope, they can just jump over it. This suggestion would literally put walls to just decoration status, since their main functionality is negated by most of the things it's try to protect you against.

30 minutes ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Make mobs have random variation to their health and attack period per attack.

Oh boy, time to make it a random fest of wondering if the pig is actually killable or if it's just going to be absurdly easy or hard based on it's  chance. While you meant is small changes, but those small changes can make a whole lot of difference. Get a hound attack and have all of them attack at different times? get ready to be stunlocked while trying to escape because it became the perfect s***storm of delay. Get ready to have a even more annoying misery toadstool battle since it can now have the potential of over 100,000 health. These may be isolated cases, but it shows how bad these types of variations can be if it happens just right. It also throws out any sort of learning curve since it can then very wildly based on only on how lucky you are and not skill, that is something I really don't want since it actively goes against the games trial and error style of difficulty.

40 minutes ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Allow both players and mobs to be able to attack while moving.

Oh, boy have every mob have the same type of weird dodging that Dragonfly has? This mechanic is honestly really annoying and only serves to make it so that you can't run away,  which locks you into a fight unless you are fast enough to outrun the mob who is going after you. This would just make combat more annoying and wouldn't give you any breathing room for mistakes since any time you aren't also fighting the enemy is going after you, without allowing you to run to get that breathing room.

47 minutes ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Add ranged weapons like a bow and arrow which the player must actually aim to fire, think the forge’s special attacks for the blowdart and don’t make them like heat seeking missles which always 100% hit their target LOL

While a bow and arrow may improve the verity of ranged weapons, making them having to manually aim the arrows would make them near actually unusable on controller since you can't just have a active reticle on screen like you can on pc. There is also the fact that making them manual aim would go against the other types of ranged combat as that's not how they act. A bow and arrow is a decet idea but making them maual aim would just be weird since it would be the only weapon of it's kind that would do that.

54 minutes ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Make each weapon having their own range at what they can hit mobs at.

While this would be a fine enough idea, the concept of giving every weapon slightly different ranges that most players won't even notice (since most players run right up to the enemy to attack) doesn't seem like a good way to spend development time.

1 hour ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Add stuff like shields with a shield slot and you hold a button to block. You must be facing the direction of the mob attacking you to actually block the attack and you would be able to move slowly while blocking. Some attacks could be unblockable

Oh, boy add invincibility on demand? what a great idea! The idea of shields may seem like a good one, but since most attacks come from one direction, your body, which could be used to give invincibility when you want. If you are suggesting that aoe goes over shields, then it would be mostly useless since a majority of attacks you want to block would be ignored by the aoe.

1 hour ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Make players swing attacks hit everything very close in front of the player though it would depend mostly on the weapons attack animations and its range.

1 hour ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Different types of weapons have different attack animations and effects like a spear being a piercing attack and hitting mobs in a straight line with good range while something like a hammer makes the player bash the mob maybe knocking it back a little or giving a chance to stun it.

I would suggest putting this near/before the concept this effects (i.e. not having one in between them). The different types of animations would be neat and would add more verity to weapons, but the differing range would still be unnoticeable with the exception of obvious ones like the spear. The differing ways they strike and adding actual effects to those differences would be nice. I do go against going against any type of stun or knock back since that would make any boss be able just be stuck in a corner, not being able to escape.

1 hour ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Add sprinting or dashing then the player can quickly move while in combat or quickly reposition themself at the cost of hunger or increased hunger drain. Most mobs should also have abilities like this too like lunge attacks.

Make the game much easier if you have stuff to spend on it? That doesn't sound familer at all. While it would make new players seriously use these tactically and stuff, veteran players would exploit the hell out of these. Having these tied to hunger would just give players that have a way to make so much food to give them a much easier time because they have resources and not skill.

There are some decent ideas here, but also some that aren't. They could be good with some simple re tweaking and not trying to add manual mechanics for no reason.

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39 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

higher damage and range, lower attack speed spear could make them much better for fights with a lot of kiting.

 Adding different properties to each different weapon can very much add a better verience to the system that it needs, but it can easily go horribly wrong if it's balenced wrong. I chose this one specifically because we do already have a example of this in DS Hamlet. The Cork Bat deals 51 damage at a slower hit rate and it is really bad. If the bat doesn't 1 shot it, then you are put at a immediate disadvantage since the time difference is so big. Dealing with something like a snake is much more difficult then if you just used a spear. It wouldn't even be good for kiting as the slower attack speed would make it harder to dodge and lower the dps that a normal weapon could. A slow weapon concept could work but the damage on the weapon would need to really high to equal out or surpass a normal weapon's dps.

48 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

However only Wolfgang and Wigfrid are combat based characters.  Does it really make sense for the other survivors to use these?

Yes, because while the rest aren't combat centralized, they still do use combat. It's like how Wormwood is good with planting plants but all characters do interact with planting plants.

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2 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

While this wouldn't be bad, the current attack system is fine as is.

And this is why combat will forever be lame and boring cause nobody wants a big change to add more depth to the very bare bone combat or they think they have to become a super pro dark souls level combat master to survive against fighting a spider lol

 

2 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

Oh boy, time to make walls even more useless!

Walls are already useless cause mobs can break them. They are only used for exploiting mob AI lol. I said only a few special mobs should be able to go over them like any mob which can embark a boat which is hound, pig, merm, and not a lot of mobs.

 

For random variation I meant like for example a spider will bite .25-1 seconds later or faster or it could have 10-50 more or less health not spider can have 500 health or attack every .01 seconds lol!!

 

Maybe attacking while moving isn’t good for mobs, but for players it would make the game more fun because you are not locked into one spot and it’s an important thing offset mobs can attack faster randomly and makes game more fun when you have more control over your character and don’t have to always repeat same go back and forth routine.

 

Bow and arrow would come with a rework of ranged weapons, right now ranged weapons are so lame it’s like using aimbot on minecraft. Changing them to be easier to get but require aiming is a fair trade off imo. I don’t know anything about the controller but I think the forge event was on playstation and xbox or that stuff so klei obviously got it working for controllers with a aiming mechanic for the blowdart special attack on there.

 

 this is suggestion for making combat actually fun not about how much development time it takes and I dont think adding some range value will take long but I digress.

 

Okay, then to use a shield you would have to specifically time it right when the mob attacks and they wouldn’t have so much durablity! So this way it is skilled and fun for someone who uses it and not op.

 

 Knockback and stun wouldn’t work on bosses just normal mobs then.

 

Okay then how about a naturally regenerating stamina bar which when you sprint or dodge it depletes or cost stamina and then it regenerates based on how high your hunger is and if your stamina reaches 0 your character has to catch their breath and can’t do anything for a few seconds leaving them very vunerable. The regeneration wouldn’t be so fast it would be like 1 every second and there would be 100 stamina and cost like 10 stamina to dash. The dash could also have only invincibility for like .5 second so it won’t be op and takes skill to use!

2 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

A slow weapon concept could work

That’s why weapons would need extra effects like doing a little knockback or stun against normal mobs! Making a weapon just attack slower or faster is not fun or creative, it’s just lazy.

 

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

only Wolfgang and Wigfrid are combat based characters

Well the animations wouldn’t be like some warrior moves like the forge or something just simple animation like the current wack animation but for thrusting a spear or smashing with a hammer, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t take combat master to do those lol

 

anyways I say for combat to be fun it requires a HUGE rework like how RoG changed base dont starve, that kind of change. Adding a few special forge moves or making it that some weapons attack faster or slower or have huge range or a weapon which causes electric damage or freezes things or explodes things, ect. won’t make combat more fun at all.

Combat right now sucks extremely barebone because the player does not have much control over their character except for running back and forth and holding F.

for it to be fun it needs to be engaging in a FUN way which is not repeating the same cycle for X amount of times.

Allowing players to move while preforming an attack first of all makes it you can move in any direction while fighting so it adds more control and interaction player can have which gives more fun and makes it feel less like the same exact thing over and over.

Adding shield parrying, dashing, sprinting also adds variation to the combat and player has more control over what they can go in the combat and it adds skill too you can feel satisfied when you block every attack in a fight with that .25 second of invincibility time you had.

Adding small random period to mobs attacks makes them less like robots and more like a natural creature trying to fight for its life and with the shield, dash, sprinting, and moving while attacking it negates anything like the players getting stunlocked cause you got hit earlier than you anticipated because the player can do stuff to counter that (blocking and dashing)

Different weapon attacks makes it players can have different playstyle and can make it useless weapons nobody uses could even have a use and dark sword isn’t the god of all weapons all the time!

 

 I’ll just say one last time combat in dst sucks cause it always is the same thing running back and forth and without adding alternative to that or changing it it will always be boring cause there’s no unique player input in such a way of combat you are forced to do the same exact thing all other players must do. Without big rework and changes to its core it can’t be fixed. No matter how much you polish a piece of dried up manure it will still be a piece of dried up manure.

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2 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

And this is why combat will forever be lame and boring cause nobody wants a big change to add more depth to the very bare bone combat or they think they have to become a super pro dark souls level combat master to survive against fighting a spider lol

You tpok me out of context. That paragragh was how the auto targeting works fine for the game as the perspective doesn't truely allow you to do it manually without unneeded frustration. You took that statment and made into a triad. I understand that the combat system needs changes, its just that your changes you presented were bad.

2 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Walls are already useless cause mobs can break them. They are only used for exploiting mob AI lol. I said only a few special mobs should be able to go over them like any mob which can embark a boat which is hound, pig, merm, and not a lot of mobs

Again, this would make walls useless. Walls are designed to be protection against hounds since a new player doesn't know how to properly fend them off, and the walls give them time to fend them off one by one then all at once. If they can just jump the walls, then that player has died because the walls didn't even work as they were suppose too. The walls aren't meant to be this tool of mob farming, they are meant for defence, and giving the one mob, hounds, the ability to completely ignore them is a bad idea. Its not about how it would break mob farming or fencing stuff, its how it ruins the purpose they were made to be used for.

2 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

For random variation I meant like for example a spider will bite .25-1 seconds later or faster or it could have 10-50 more or less health not spider can have 500 health or attack every .01 seconds lol

I adressed that you meamt to uave slight variations, but that doesn't matter, it's still works against the player. The inconsistencies of how the mobs work will greatly effect the players learning and strategy when dealing with the creture at question. The player is going to be confused when all the spiders start dying at a seemingly random amount of hits for each one and thus confuse them even more when they all attack differently. Its even worse in large groups as, again, it could very easily stunlock them. It sucks when you are fighting spiders and the stars align where they stunlock you. It also sucks whem the spiders bit once and then its essentially a free kill. These typea of variations very rarely reach their peak good range and would instead shift fights into winnable and unwinnable based on chance. The mechaic would flesh out the world but the difficulty to occurs from it would stagger a playera progress greatly as, again, it would take more luck then skill to actually be good, and thats not rewarding. I don't want to play some softcore gambling game where I have to roll the dice If Im going to stomp or be stomped by the exact same fight with 2 different groups. The variations are neat on paper but very poor in excecution as it takes skill away from the players and has luck be the deciding factor instead. 

2 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Maybe attacking while moving isn’t good for mobs, but for players it would make the game more fun because you are not locked into one spot and it’s an important thing offset mobs can attack faster randomly and makes game more fun when you have more control over your character and don’t have to always repeat same go back and forth routine.

Games like dark aouls that have these great combat systems are great because of a few reasons bit one of the big ones is predictability. Darks souls easily allows the player to kill any boss or encounter first try, but people usually don't because they don't know the bosses patterns. Once they get those patterns, it gets gradually gets easier and easier until you finally beat it. Dst works in sort of the same way. You learn these patterns and the bosses get gradually easier and easier over time. The reason why it's becomes a back and forth routine is because a majority of games like this have the same concept in place. Wait out the attack for a distance to dodge and go into hit. The reason why it's different in other games is that they have a focus arpund combat while dst doesn't it keeps its perspective and thus they way the concept is potrayed is different. Instead of in the characters shoes, you are viewing it from a outside perapective. The characters might think they are expertly baiting out attacks and using the window of oppertunity to attack but its really just the back and forth routine. On the concept of moving attacks, if made for both enemies and players, it would just desolve into tanking because both of you can't dodge because the moving attack can close the distance so it's makes no point to try and just tank. If made juat for players then it would make kiting a little easier but it won't change the actual method. The perspective the game takes still doesn't allow for flippy s*** to occur (unless the game either changes perspective for fighting which could get nauseating and very annoying after awhile or add aome may button promps that it confuses and baffles players) so that can't be added. A simple constant attacking while running wouldn't change much as the same back and forth routine will still occur, just with additional blows done by the player. Trying to change kiting isn't oing to work as changing kitting also means changing dodging in the game which is the only thing that actually makes it press F to fight with occational healing.

2 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Bow and arrow would come with a rework of ranged weapons, right now ranged weapons are so lame it’s like using aimbot on minecraft. Changing them to be easier to get but require aiming is a fair trade off imo. I don’t know anything about the controller but I think the forge event was on playstation and xbox or that stuff so klei obviously got it working for controllers with a aiming mechanic for the blowdart special attack on there.

Again, with the controller it wouldn't work. Firing every shot would requires its own aiming and thus get old very quickly. If you suggest making so that you can gire once you like a target, then whats the point of actually aiming it since you will just hit the enemy every time (if it moves slowly enpugh) and lessens the need for reaiming. It also makes so that really fast mobs is a actual fools errand since no god can hit a moving target moving speratically. While the current system may seem broken, its really not. If you had to manually make all you shots, I guarantee that notany people would use them in favor of a spear because the pain of aiming is too much  to deal with whem there is this better option without that problem. The auto targeting also allows players to not frivoulsy waste darts because of misclicks and random mouse/controller fits, the system we have now ensures that your weapons are being used for combat and not for shooting a tree or something.

2 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

this is suggestion for making combat actually fun not about how much development time it takes and I dont think adding some range value will take long but I digress

You should always consider it is actually possbile for the dev team to create because massive ideas like these would make the team unable to actually handle them. For range values, it would go like this. Make range value, set standard range value, make range values fot all weapons, test all values, reblaence, test, rebalence, test, rebalence, ship out. This ptocess could be over a few days or, more likely, a few weeks to a month for this one mechanic due to needing its own balencing.

3 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Okay, then to use a shield you would have to specifically time it right when the mob attacks and they wouldn’t have so much durablity! So this way it is skilled and fun for someone who uses it and not op

100% protection will always be op but I digress, making it time based for a online game is real bad idea becuase of lag. Since it seems that you are demanding near second perfect timing, something tjat would be possible in a tightly controlled single player game, not a laggy online game. The problem woth it always being is that the threat of lag is always looming over head and is a constant fear among everybody. What would happen way too much is some does the shieldinh but the lags eats it and they get hit anywaybso thats why timed mechanics like these wouldn't work in any sort of fashion.

3 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Knockback and stun wouldn’t work on bosses just normal mobs then.

Then why have it at all? Im most certinly going to try and stun something like a spider or beefalo becuase it would literally just be easier to off it. Stun would be broken for bosses, but its also only valuable to bosses since they are the only targets that require it. Its have fuelweaver in a corner with hammers or just kiting him witj the highest damage weapon. There is little room for in between.

3 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Okay then how about a naturally regenerating stamina bar which when you sprint or dodge it depletes or cost stamina and then it regenerates based on how high your hunger is and if your stamina reaches 0 your character has to catch their breath and can’t do anything for a few seconds leaving them very vunerable. The regeneration wouldn’t be so fast it would be like 1 every second and there would be 100 stamina and cost like 10 stamina to dash. The dash could also have only invincibility for like .5 second so it won’t be op and takes skill to use

This is literily worse in everu single facet. Having stanima is the worst mechanic since it breaks off the fight so that you can recharge it. Having mechanics like sprinting would be good for kiting and traveling but walking with a walking cane will be faster since there is no need to stop. Dazhing is still broken if you give it invincibility and near worthless without. Wheeler from Hamlet has the ability to dodge and the ability is super broken. You can dodge any attack by going towards the enemy, which allows you to ignore any damage and kite enemies even easier. The slower recharge might make it seem baleneced, but it really isn't since you still do the same stuff, but with a cool down period. The stanima rwgen time is also too low since you would be able to uwmse 9 dashes and them go back to the same routine for nearly 2 min. And the usw it 9 more times and wait again. Thats not spicing up the entire dish, thats adding chcoclate chips in a few portuons of a otherwise bland cookie. The entire mechanic is underwhelming and wouldn't spice up combat like you are wanting.

3 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

That’s why weapons would need extra effects like doing a little knockback or stun against normal mobs! Making a weapon just attack slower or faster is not fun or creative, it’s just lazy

Again taking me out of context, I was saying how they couls wprk if theyade thwm really powerful not if they added effects. We aren't working with tomes of various effects, we are dealing with different beating sticks, they don't need different effects aince theone with the most damge will almost always be the prefered choice unless the ability is really really good which can very easily break any semblance of balence in the game.

3 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

for it to be fun it needs to be engaging in a FUN way which is not repeating the same cycle for X amount of times

Adding more ways to move and interact with combat would make thwm seem more gleahed out but would eventually boil back down to sanding back, wait out the attack, them go back to wait again. Nothing you do will change that unless you get rid of it entirely in which case the only form of dodging managable with the lag is removed and the meta shifts to just tanking which is even more boring. Adding more combat manouvers woyld just make thw current method more flashy, but not actually change it.

3 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Allowing players to move while preforming an attack first of all makes it you can move in any direction while fighting so it adds more control and interaction player can have which gives more fun and makes it feel less like the same exact thing over and over.

Disreguarding that this is already in the system with less button pushing, you make it seem likes its not the falut im on my 500th spider kill thats boring me, its the angle im doing it. Changing the angle of where im attacking won't change my perspective of the fight, it just tells me that I switched my angle. Changing my angle of attack doesn't add excitment of intriuge pf the fight, I just moved into a different angle because of something like terrain.

3 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Adding shield parrying, dashing, sprinting also adds variation to the combat and player has more control over what they can go in the combat and it adds skill too you can feel satisfied when you block every attack in a fight with that .25 second of invincibility time you had

It would most certinly add verity to combat, until you run out of shields or stanima and have to resort back to kiting. The way you gave made it a band aid to a gaping wound, or its not doing much to actually help the issue at hand. It will fell satisfying if you pull off a parry, but those moments few and far between. You might feel satisfied after dodging a attack but once you run out of stamina, you have to eait to get those back. The fact the players has gaps inbetween these momwnts might make feel sweeter when they pull them off but makes the inbetween periods soured with self loathing of your incorrect timing or impatience with your gradual refilling stamina.  If you make them less resrictive, then you make the mechanic btoken and thus make combat as boring as it is now, but with a different flavor. Its a lose lose situation that occurs because of the very idea of the concept of on demand invincibility is flawed. 

3 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Adding small random period to mobs attacks makes them less like robots and more like a natural creature trying to fight for its life and with the shield, dash, sprinting, and moving while attacking it negates anything like the players getting stunlocked cause you got hit earlier than you anticipated because the player can do stuff to counter that (blocking and dashing)

Get into a hoard of spiders, starts getting stunlock, dash to escape, hoard blocks my escape and continues there fury. That is a very plausible situation since the fact that groups of enemies can swarm you and stunlock you is a very real possibility and can't be negated by moving attacks or of the like. Kiting a single mob will turn into taking the lowest period for that mob possible and basing the pattern of that and make the fight much more annoying and tandom which leads to unnessary frustration/death since you rolled the dice badly. The mechanics can't protect you against hoards, and barely effect single target combat since the good old kiting method is tje game's way of allowing the player to dodge a opponet, and no amount of changes can change that factor. Kiting is so ingrained to the system that it literally can't be removed without alsp getting rid of the ability to not have a fight be based on who has the higher numbers. Charging, dashing, paerying, all of them still are over shadowed by kiting for its constiancy and not reliance on timers.

3 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

Different weapon attacks makes it players can have different playstyle and can make it useless weapons nobody uses could even have a use and dark sword isn’t the god of all weapons all the time!

Again, weapons are easentially just beating sticks. The one with the highest damage will always winout without the others having balence breaking abilities. Adding verity to weapons may make them be used more but people will always revert to the dark sword when the going gets tough since it deals the most damage. 

4 hours ago, Handsome_Jack said:

I’ll just say one last time combat in dst sucks cause it always is the same thing running back and forth and without adding alternative to that or changing it it will always be boring cause there’s no unique player input in such a way of combat you are forced to do the same exact thing all other players must do. Without big rework and changes to its core it can’t be fixed. No matter how much you polish a piece of dried up manure it will still be a piece of dried up manure

Again, the way how combat is made in most games is made to be the same bait out then strike for it's combat. You may adding a few flips or sidesteps in there to spruce it up, but the same waiting put to attack is still going to be there. The reason why its so apparent in dst becuase you are looking at this phenomenon from a outsiders perspective and not the perspective of the main character. No matter how much dodging or partying you have DST, it wull always boil down to the same concept of bait, attack, run to bait just with some slight varations to steps.

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11 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

 Adding different properties to each different weapon can very much add a better verience to the system that it needs, but it can easily go horribly wrong if it's balenced wrong. I chose this one specifically because we do already have a example of this in DS Hamlet. The Cork Bat deals 51 damage at a slower hit rate and it is really bad. If the bat doesn't 1 shot it, then you are put at a immediate disadvantage since the time difference is so big. Dealing with something like a snake is much more difficult then if you just used a spear. It wouldn't even be good for kiting as the slower attack speed would make it harder to dodge and lower the dps that a normal weapon could. A slow weapon concept could work but the damage on the weapon would need to really high to equal out or surpass a normal weapon's dps.

I'm not sold on that.  There will be a meta where the best weapon is used, that is true.  But that doesn't mean the game designers could devise a way in which the meta for different situations required different weapons.  This would be a very large rework of the entire game, and I'm not holding my breath that it happens lol, but I firmly believe multiple weapons could be simultaneously viable IF the situations presented for us to use them were also varied to fit them.  Attack speed may not be a great lever, I have seen other games where slow weapons don't keep up even with higher damage, but what might be better is if weapons could include some type of special effect which was on a cool down.  When you attack you get a nifty effect, but while on cool down the weapon works as they currently do.  These weapon procs could be any number of useful effects such as a bleed effect increasing damage dealt to the mob, disorient causing the mob to lose aggro, a single high damage attack or attack with increased range, and more.  If the cool down were item dependent then players could exploit many effects, so the cool down should probably be player dependent.  A player might carry multiple weapons for the synergy they can bring.

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Yes, because while the rest aren't combat centralized, they still do use combat. It's like how Wormwood is good with planting plants but all characters do interact with planting plants.

Yeah, I guess that is true.  I really like the atmosphere of the world.  Even as Forge gave us more battle oriented aspects of our characters I'm not sure how the base game would feel if we brought those Forge characters in...  I'm certainly not against the idea, just unsure.

Anyway - its something that seems interesting to me whether the game devs would do it or not.  I kinda feel they wouldn't because they like the simplicity of the game - and in your second post you hit the nail on the head.  As simple as DST is, the game weighs player skill much more than other things like what armor you're wearing or what weapon you're wielding.  If a player is good at DST then they could be dropped in the world randomly and survive.  In this regard this game is much more similar to Monster Hunter than World of Warcraft.  Whether I'm using an axe, a basic spear, hambat, dark sword, or thulecite club the fight remains largely the same.  This isn't a flaw.

We already having blocking in the game via Bone Armor and Thulecite Crown.  These both block differently, and are very useful for what they do.  They are both appropriately difficult to obtain too.

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5 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

Then why have it at all?

LOL man you are really against the idea of combat changing at all. Tell me how YOU would improve combat then, eh? What are your so ever great and balanced ideas, milooord?

You want combat to be the same level as a mobile game’s combat system which is holding a button and kiting and you want nothing added that introduces skill or variety, forever? DST combat can never be improved then and always will suck forever, sad.

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I can't think of any changes that doesn't involve a radical and fundamental restructure of everything, involving movement, hitboxes, timing and items. Which, with the way combat has been for so long; I don't have much faith as a concept would be implemented in any way but awkwardly, less there was a great amount of precision, intent and understanding funnelled into the project at this late stage. Works alright as it is now, any subtler changes would to me presumably feel too much out of place anyway, incompatible experience simply.

Though, adding more movement variety to mobs so your approach with the combat changes? That'd always be swell.

Things like perhaps a mob that charges around it's target in a quick banana-shaped skid, to throw off direction and hit people from behind.

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10 hours ago, Cosheeta said:

Though, adding more movement variety to mobs so your approach with the combat changes? That'd always be swell.

Yeah by 'improve fighting' I more or less meant your ideas about new cool attacks for mobs. Not a complete rework of fighting system

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This are some ideas I have had while playing DST and The Forge (also SW):

  • Bosses should have a few more attacks depending on how much health they have. Similar to bosses in The Forge. Also, you shouldn't be forced to fight deerclops and bearger each year, but rather they become optional (but way stronger) bosses after the 1st fight.
  • A "new" category of weapons: magic (technically, it already exists, but I mean, to give it more focus). So, all staves would become viable for combat (well... maybe a few exceptions) and they would just have basic ranged attacks with effects (example: lazy explorer does no damage with the basic cast but can sleep enemies similar to sleep darts, cost 10 sanity per cast and it retains the ability to teleport the player to a desired spot; fire staff does a bit of damage and has a chance to burn the enemy with the basic cast, cost 15 sanity per cast, and retains the ability to burn a forest from a safe distance; etc.). NOTE: all kinds of magic use sanity, and without enough sanity you can't use magic (example: if you currently have only 3 sanity you can neither "attack" with the lazy explorer nor teleport with it, as you don't have enough sanity to use any of them). This would make sanity management more interesting, and would also make staying sane more of an advantage instead of doing it because you are nauseous of the insanity music and effects.
  • Improve ranged weapons to be more accessible or easy to use (who thought it was a great idea to make the boomerang work like that!?) even if this means considerably reducing their damage. Darts are currently almost only a Wickerbottom's thing because of how they are made.
  • Change some equippable items to be more useful for combat similar to The Forge (for example: garlands recover 1 health every 2 seconds; top hat makes all magic use 10% less sanity; Wigfrid's helmet increases movement speed and damage by 5%; grass suit gives 10% movement speed; etc. While they all retain their original effects). Would also add special abilities to weapons like The Forge, but that comes with a whole can of worms: 7 dark swords in cooldown from 1 player alone!
  • Poison mechanic from SW would be interesting to have, both to use it, and to face it.
  • Decrease the amount of Health some Health foods give, and buff some healing items. They are almost useless unless you play the DLC character Wortox, and maybe Wurt (but I doubt it).

That is all I can remember.

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