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Gourmand

Wolfgang Rework

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Gourmand    540

How might you suggest Wolfgang be tweaked to become more of a team player? 

I think a dumbell, like the one shown in his character art, should be a craftable. A character could lift it for thirty seconds to boost their strength, minimally, so they can hit an extra 5 damage or so for a day. It would also allow Wolfgang to increase his mightiness.

A passive perk for him: Wolfgang can carry sculptures and boulders with no speed penalty when well-fed. He is a strongman after all.

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Brago-sama    1404
11 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

I think a dumbell, like the one shown in his character art, should be a craftable

Cool kinda like willow and her teddy

11 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

A character could lift it for thirty seconds to boost their strength, minimally, so they can hit an extra 5 damage or so for a day

Like on top of his mighty form? If not, massive nerf. Can other characters use it

11 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

A passive perk for him: Wolfgang can carry sculptures and boulders with no speed penalty when well-fed. He is a strongman after all.

I like it buuuut this this makes beefalo completely obsolete online for all but 2 characters 

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X-lem    335

Someone somewhere pointed out that Wolfgang is a scardy cat. They suggested that he gets stronger when more people are fighting with him rather than it based on his stomach. I really liked this idea.

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Jessie223    790

back then, people would be pushing for klei to just slap on stat nerfs on wolfgang, but nowadays i think klei is way past that sort of design (i do hope they don't just add weird gimmicks and be done with it)

people like to compare wolfgang and wigfrid, but i think they're fundamentally different, so i'd like it if klei doubled down on their differences, with wolfgang fitting his high-mobility high-damage role more and wigfrid fitting more of a facetanking role

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Ogrecakes    1904

I'd be interested if his strength was utilized for more than fighting.

Let him carry stuff like marble sculptures and moon idol pieces around much faster for a start.

Maybe let him carry around certain buildings and structures too, would be pretty funny and kinda awesome to see a Wolfgang lugging around an ice box full of food into the caves, or across the sea.

Could give him more item slots... maybe carry around players? Dunno what purpose that would really serve, but it could be fun.

All of this changing based on his hunger.

His hunger drain could maybe be changed based on his sanity, along side raising how much sanity he loses around monsters even further.

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Gourmand    540
1 hour ago, X-lem said:

Someone somewhere pointed out that Wolfgang is a scardy cat. They suggested that he gets stronger when more people are fighting with him rather than it based on his stomach. I really liked this idea.

I like this idea!

1 minute ago, Ogrecakes said:

I'd be interested if his strength was utilized for more than fighting.

Let him carry stuff like marble sculptures and moon idol pieces around much faster for a start.

Maybe let him carry around certain buildings and structures too, would be pretty funny and kinda awesome to see a Wolfgang lugging around an ice box full of food into the caves, or across the sea.

Could give him more item slots... maybe carry around players? Dunno what purpose that would really serve, but it could be fun.

All of this changing based on his hunger.

His hunger drain could maybe be changed based on his sanity, along side raising how much sanity he loses around monsters even further.

All of these are great. The carrying things like ice boxes would be especially cool.

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gd80    7
9 hours ago, X-lem said:

Someone somewhere pointed out that Wolfgang is a scardy cat. They suggested that he gets stronger when more people are fighting with him rather than it based on his stomach. I really liked this idea.

Would be terrible IMO. This would make him too OP for teamfights and totally ruin solo gameplay. I would like him to just continue to be in "Giant Killer" role for the team (maybe make him a bit more tanky or capable of damaging multiple enemies?) without too many buffs for/from the team.

He could be given some useful battle crafts instead of ruining his current playstyle.

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gghhrr    247

Wolfgang is scared of the darkness so how about

he deals more damage on the daytime

medium damage in the dusk

a little damage in night time and cave

Wolfgang now has new exlucisve weapon: an Axe with named Rhitta

Spoiler

Escanor Night Anime (Season 2)

 

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Canis    11417
Just now, gghhrr said:

Wolfgang is scared of the darkness so how about

he deals more damage on the daytime

medium damage in the dusk

a little damage in night time and cave

Wolfgang now has new exlucisve weapon: an Axe with named Rhitta

  Reveal hidden contents

Escanor Night Anime (Season 2)

 

"Oh my god, who touched Sasha Rhitta?
Who touched my gun axe?!"

 

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fimmatek    3910
14 hours ago, X-lem said:

Someone somewhere pointed out that Wolfgang is a scardy cat. They suggested that he gets stronger when more people are fighting with him rather than it based on his stomach. I really liked this idea.

Imagine all those players who rush ruins solo as Wolfgang... :D

But from the lore's perspective this makes a lot of sense, and would really encourage players to fight in groups. I like this idea!

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gd80    7
27 minutes ago, fimmatek said:

Imagine all those players who rush ruins solo as Wolfgang... :D

But from the lore's perspective this makes a lot of sense, and would really encourage players to fight in groups. I like this idea!

Lore wise he should improvise, adapt, overcome as every other character after rework, and not become more cowardly, which only can fight with army by his side.

I don't think rework should change core character so radically: from one of the best to play solo to the only one unplayable without team. Would be much better to improve his current setup as always hungry ultimate slayer (for example, he could eat stuff like nightmare to acquire/enchance certain characteristics) and apply this idea to a new dlc charater.

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Pop Guy    3608

I think Wolfgang should have more stomach.
At 400 of hunger his strength becomes x2.5 and his speed x2, his health rises to 400 and he gets 10% natural armor.
At 500 of hunger his strength becomes x3 and his speed x2.5, his health rises to 500 and he gets 20% natural armor.

At 1,000 of hunger his strength becomes x4 and his speed x3, his health rises to 600 and he gets 33% natural armor, as well as a passive regeneration of 1 health point per second.

At 10,000 of hunger his strength becomes x5, his speed x3,1, his health rises to 700 and he gets 50% natural armor, as well as a passive regeneration of 2 health points per second.

At 100,000 of hunger his strength becomes x10, his speed x3.3, his health rises to 1,000 and he gets 60% natural armor, as well as a passive regeneration of 3 health points per second.
At 1,000,000 of hunger (maximum obtainable) his strength becomes x100, his speed x3.5, his health rises to 15,000 and he gets 80% natural armor, as well as a passive regeneration of 5 health points per second. He also dies of a heart attack after ten seconds.

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Toros    1182
3 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

I think Wolfgang should have more stomach.
At 400 of hunger his strength becomes x2.5 and his speed x2, his health rises to 400 and he gets 10% natural armor.
At 500 of hunger his strength becomes x3 and his speed x2.5, his health rises to 500 and he gets 20% natural armor.

At 1,000 of hunger his strength becomes x4 and his speed x3, his health rises to 600 and he gets 33% natural armor, as well as a passive regeneration of 1 health point per second.

At 10,000 of hunger his strength becomes x5, his speed x3,1, his health rises to 700 and he gets 50% natural armor, as well as a passive regeneration of 2 health points per second.

At 100,000 of hunger his strength becomes x10, his speed x3.3, his health rises to 1,000 and he gets 60% natural armor, as well as a passive regeneration of 3 health points per second.
At 1,000,000 of hunger (maximum obtainable) his strength becomes x100, his speed x3.5, his health rises to 15,000 and he gets 80% natural armor, as well as a passive regeneration of 5 health points per second. He also dies of a heart attack after ten seconds.

This is basically just turning Wolfgang into Goku.

On the topic of reworking Wolfgang, I wrote a rework mod that makes a bunch of changes that I believe put him more on par with Wigfrid and give him less stats but more utility.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1205119975

Basically here are the changes:

Buffs:

-ignores slowdown from marble armor and piggyback while mighty

-can carry heavy objects at 75% speed while mighty (up from 25% speed)

-mighty form hunger drain caps at 2x (down from 3x)

Nerfs:

-No speed boost (also no size change)

-1.3x sanity loss (up from 1.1x)

-Max hp in mighty form 200 (same as normal form)

-Max sanity 150 (down from 200)

The purpose of the changes were to put him more at Wigfrid’s level, make marble armor/piggyback worthwhile if you can sustain mightiness, and add extra utility with moving heavy things.

He still has massive damage, but being mighty isn’t always worth the extra food, and gains utility expected of the strongest survivor.

Normally Wolfgang’s size change is what causes the speed boost, and it looks ridiculous when carrying heavy things for them to dramatically increase in size and then shrink when dropped.  That’s part of why I removed it, another part being speed boosts are difficult to manage.

Specific to Wolfgang, a variable speed boost messes up your kiting because not only do you need wolfgang specific attack/dodge ratio, you get awkward intermediate stages where you have time for half a swing more.

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Shosuko    951

As much as everyone loves his speed - I think it could go.  Body builders and power lifters are not typically also fast runners.  I think replacing his speed entirely with the ability to lift structures and statues and move them around faster (speed varying with his form) would be pretty cool.

I like the idea of the dumbbell craftable.  Maybe instead of eating he pumps weights to get his mighty form on.  Anyone can pump it for a temporary buff, but he gets his mighty form for a duration after lifting.  He can continue to stop and lift to keep his mighty form going.  This would keep him from raiding the fridge as much hehe

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maradyne    4957
22 hours ago, Ogrecakes said:

Let him carry stuff like marble sculptures and moon idol pieces around much faster for a start.

but
but then I'd have one less excuse for not working on the Abigail mod

No for real though, that would be awesome. Had that idea a while back.
Newer player being dumb, getting krumped by boss, about to die.
Straight up lift them above your head and run away while they flail around.

 

add a trashcan in the same update so we can dunk people in it

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Gourmand    540
1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

As much as everyone loves his speed - I think it could go.  Strong people are not typically also fast people.  I think replacing his speed entirely with the ability to lift structures and statues and move them around faster (speed varying with his form) would be pretty cool.

I like the idea of the dumbbell craftable.  Maybe instead of eating he pumps weights to get his mighty form on.  Anyone can pump it for a temporary buff, but he gets his mighty form for a duration after lifting.  He can continue to stop and lift to keep his mighty form going.  This would keep him from raiding the fridge as much hehe

Yeah, his speed is definitely not needed. He's a must pick in any boss fight as of now due to his strength, speed and natural armor. Make him specialize in his role rather than let him be a jack of all trades.

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async-await    9
10 hours ago, Shosuko said:

As much as everyone loves his speed - I think it could go.  Strong people are not typically also fast people.

That's usually a silly stereotype.

8 hours ago, Gourmand said:

Yeah, his speed is definitely not needed. He's a must pick in any boss fight as of now due to his strength, speed and natural armor. Make him specialize in his role rather than let him be a jack of all trades.

His speed is his specialized skill for fighting tho, that's what his "natural armor" is, and it's what makes him different from wigfrid - she has dmg reduction and he has speed for safer kiting.

Most suggestions above are straightforward nerfs for wolfbuddy, we need more interesting mechanics, not scrapping/nerfing existing ones:

1) he could have his sanity drain increased but new mechanic for sanity refill in battle would be added, like additional sanity gain for eating or fighting;

2) he could get ability to hurl rocks at enemies.

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Toros    1182
16 hours ago, Gourmand said:

Yeah, his speed is definitely not needed. He's a must pick in any boss fight as of now due to his strength, speed and natural armor. Make him specialize in his role rather than let him be a jack of all trades.

Minor correction: Wolfgang doesn’t have any inherent armor, that’s Wigfrid.

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

As much as everyone loves his speed - I think it could go.  Strong people are not typically also fast people.

While I agree that his speed should go, it’s for mechanical reasons not realism ones.

Look at olympic sprinters.  They are muscular and their thighs are massive.  Many competitive bicyclists also have very strong legs.

Strength (more accurately power which is strength over a short time period) is how speed is generated.  Being stronger relative to your weight should make you faster because you’re able to apply more force to move the mass.

Wolfgang almost certainly would be the fastest survivor in a sprint (ignoring overcharged wx) simply because he has the strongest legs and would be the strongest relative to weight.
 

That said, he would not be well suited to a long distance race because he is carrying a lot of weight in his upper body that would work against him.

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Shosuko    951
11 hours ago, async-await said:

That's usually a silly stereotype.

 

3 hours ago, Toros said:

While I agree that his speed should go, it’s for mechanical reasons not realism ones.

Look at olympic sprinters.  They are muscular and their thighs are massive.  Many competitive bicyclists also have very strong legs.

Strength (more accurately power which is strength over a short time period) is how speed is generated.  Being stronger relative to your weight should make you faster because you’re able to apply more force to move the mass.

Wolfgang almost certainly would be the fastest survivor in a sprint (ignoring overcharged wx) simply because he has the strongest legs and would be the strongest relative to weight.
 

That said, he would not be well suited to a long distance race because he is carrying a lot of weight in his upper body that would work against him.

Which picture do you think has the fastest runners?

bolt_embed_.jpg&w=1600&h=1200&c=sc&poi=f

5a7c905202a15.png?width=1200&quality=80

Which picture do you think our strongman belongs in?

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Toros    1182
21 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

 

Which picture do you think has the fastest runners?

bolt_embed_.jpg&w=1600&h=1200&c=sc&poi=f

5a7c905202a15.png?width=1200&quality=80

Which picture do you think our strongman belongs in?

The olympic sprinters, obviously.

Thing is, our baseline for speed isn’t an olympic sprinter, it’s an average sized person who probably doesn’t exercise.

NFL linebackers as a whole are substantially larger and faster than average people.  College football players and powerlifters are substantially larger and faster than average people (most of which don’t exercise at all)

If your “strong implies slow” statement was true 6’8” linebackers would be slower than people who don’t strength train at all.

Wolfgang should be the fastest in a sprint.

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ShadowDuelist    4937

I agree on not removing core skills of the character, specially one of the most popular ones. If it makes sense or not, in this specific case it doesn't matter much, the speed boost has to stay mostly to prevent backlash of the community. 

  • I'd probably make his transformations more linear, same as in recezib rebalance so they become easier to handle.
  • Increase noticeably his sanity aura and darkness penalty so it does become a problem. 1.3x mult sounds good, and maybe when sanity is below 50% you take 5% more damage and when sanity is below 10% you take 10% more damage. This is regardless of forms, so a mighty sane wolfgang will be the strongest char you can have, and a wimpy 0 sanity wolfgang will be by far the worst.
  • I do like the ideas to add him a skill to carry heavy objects with less or no penalty, so mighty form gets no penalty for marble suit and piggyback, and minimum penalty from carrying around sculptures, setpiece parts, and cave ins.
  • New skill: being able to throw said setpiece parts, sculptures, and cave in boulders, for a large AOE damage, at the cost of hunger (Obelix , anyone?). The impact can also probably stagger most creatures for half a second.
  • New team skill: Tossing other players too, if they agree somehow (I was thinking of the way the high five taunt works on TF2, you start the animation but they have to press E next to you or something, and they decide where to land), also dealing some AOE damage upon landing, and also being useful to bypass map obstructions. Players can only land on land, obviously, so no throwing people to the ocean or to the caves abyss... dont get any funky ideas.

I mean a wolfgang could always keep a sculpture near battles for some crowd control, or throw around player so they deal more damage and instantly reach places. It can be useful when exploring or to reach the atrium, to just thow your buddy there. The distance could be the same as a telepoof. (Its also dumb and funny)

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Shosuko    951
2 hours ago, Toros said:

The olympic sprinters, obviously.

Thing is, our baseline for speed isn’t an olympic sprinter, it’s an average sized person who probably doesn’t exercise.

NFL linebackers as a whole are substantially larger and faster than average people.  College football players and powerlifters are substantially larger and faster than average people (most of which don’t exercise at all)

If your “strong implies slow” statement was true 6’8” linebackers would be slower than people who don’t strength train at all.

Wolfgang should be the fastest in a sprint.

Funny you mention linebackers - here is an entire article talking about how teams are using lighter linebackers as speed becomes a bigger focus in their playbooks...
https://www.espn.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=2995887

Not even breaking down the different types of muscles and exercise regimen, the weight of a person is part of the resistance slowing them down when they run.  A person with more mass is going to run slower because of that mass.  Yes light people need muscle too, but without all of that resistance slowing them down they don't need as much to overcome their body weight.

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Gourmand    540
2 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I agree on not removing core skills of the character, specially one of the most popular ones. If it makes sense or not, in this specific case it doesn't matter much, the speed boost has to stay mostly to prevent backlash of the community. 

  • I'd probably make his transformations more linear, same as in recezib rebalance so they become easier to handle.
  • Increase noticeably his sanity aura and darkness penalty so it does become a problem. 1.3x mult sounds good, and maybe when sanity is below 50% you take 5% more damage and when sanity is below 10% you take 10% more damage. This is regardless of forms, so a mighty sane wolfgang will be the strongest char you can have, and a wimpy 0 sanity wolfgang will be by far the worst.
  • I do like the ideas to add him a skill to carry heavy objects with less or no penalty, so mighty form gets no penalty for marble suit and piggyback, and minimum penalty from carrying around sculptures, setpiece parts, and cave ins.
  • New skill: being able to throw said setpiece parts, sculptures, and cave in boulders, for a large AOE damage, at the cost of hunger (Obelix , anyone?). The impact can also probably stagger most creatures for half a second.
  • New team skill: Tossing other players too, if they agree somehow (I was thinking of the way the high five taunt works on TF2, you start the animation but they have to press E next to you or something, and they decide where to land), also dealing some AOE damage upon landing, and also being useful to bypass map obstructions. Players can only land on land, obviously, so no throwing people to the ocean or to the caves abyss... dont get any funky ideas.

I mean a wolfgang could always keep a sculpture near battles for some crowd control, or throw around player so they deal more damage and instantly reach places. It can be useful when exploring or to reach the atrium, to just thow your buddy there. The distance could be the same as a telepoof. (Its also dumb and funny)

All of these are solid suggestions! The throwing teamates/mobs is brilliant.

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Jessie223    790
15 hours ago, Shosuko said:

etc

i feel like you're arguing against toros before even reading his posts

again: he assumed that the baseline was an average person, since wolfgang is kind of the only visibly athletic character

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