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Pre-space sour gas boiler V3


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On 10/11/2019 at 12:29 PM, DRAKCORE said:

Sulfur accounts for 1/3 of all your cooling. If you had a reversed system to mine you could just leave it in the cooling chamber while in my design it is more preferable to ship it down to the higher temps so it can cool incoming sour gas and get the full heat exchange from -165C to 100c+-.

Efficiency is only lost if you sacrificing heat exchange and forcing more energy into brute cooling/heating, which is not the case here. Crude is going in at 90C and natural gas is leaving at 100C and it will stabilize further over time as the counter flows reach a equilibrium.

The temperatures will always increase over time both input crude / petro and output natural gas if you are only using counterflow even a PERFECT counterflow to bleed the heat, due to the fact that during state change from crude - petroleum - sour gas you increase your heat capacity from 1.69 or 1.760 to 1.898 and when it converts into methane / sulfur each g of Sour gas becomes 0.67 methane (0.67*2.191 =  1.46797) and 0.33 sulfur (0.33*0.7 = 0.231) 1.46797 + 0.231 = 1.69897 DTU per g not even enough to offset petroleum and 0.19903 DTU less per g than the sour gas it has to cool.

Crude / Petroleum cant offset Sour gas either so each g of sour gas has 0.208 DTU/g more than the crude oil it came from or 0.138 DTU/g more than the petroleum it came from.

Altogether if using crude oil you have an extra 0.40703 DTU/g and if using petroleum an extra 0.33703 DTU/g you have to remove to keep equilibrium assuming perfect counterflow.

Sulfur provides 13.6% of your cooling.

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1 hour ago, xenoborg said:

The temperatures will always increase over time both input crude / petro and output natural gas if you are only using counterflow even a PERFECT counterflow to bleed the heat, due to the fact that during state change from crude - petroleum - sour gas you increase your heat capacity from 1.69 or 1.760 to 1.898 and when it converts into methane / sulfur each g of Sour gas becomes 0.67 methane (0.67*2.191 =  1.46797) and 0.33 sulfur (0.3*0.7 = 0.21) 1.46797 + 0.21 = 1.67797 DTU per g not even enough to offset crude oil and 0.22 DTU less per g than the sour gas it has to cool.

Crude / Petroleum cant offset Sour gas either so each g of sour gas has 0.208 DTU/g more than the crude oil it came from or 0.138 DTU/g more than the petroleum it came from.

Altogether if using crude oil you have an extra 0.428DTU/g and if using petroleum an extra 0.358DTU/g you have to remove to keep equilibrium assuming perfect counterflow.

 

You got to remember, you constantly putting energy in on both ends to maintain temps, cold and hot which are self regulated by the thermo sensors, whether it is getting to hot or cold, they will adjust. I won't get hotter or colder unless you don't have capacity to maintain either temps on both ends.

Crude coming in will heat faster than the sour gas cooling which is means the door/diamond windows linked to the magma won't be required to heat the temps up to 540 C as much.

You get a 12,31% heat capacity gain from crude to sour gas but a loss of -10,75% when going from sour gas to (methane + sulfur). *incorrect conversion.

Real world means you save a little magma heat loss of 12,31% when heating crude into sour gas and you need to cool additional 10,75% to convert sour gas to methane + sulfur. *incorrect conversion.

Also my natural gas chamber soaks up the additional heat and gets pumped out into the steam room where it is converted into energy.

numbers.JPG

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14 minutes ago, DRAKCORE said:

You got to remember, you constantly putting energy in on both ends to maintain temps, cold and hot which are self regulated by the thermo sensors, whether it is getting to hot or cold, they will adjust. I won't get hotter or colder unless you don't have capacity to maintain either temps on both ends.

Crude coming in will heat faster than the sour gas cooling which is means the door/diamond windows linked to the magma won't be required to heat the temps up to 540 C as much.

You get a 12,31% heat capacity gain from crude to sour gas but a loss of -10,75% when going from sour gas to (methane + sulfur). *incorrect conversion.

Real world means you save a little magma heat loss of 12,31% when heating crude into sour gas and you need to cool additional 10,75% to convert sour gas to methane + sulfur. *incorrect conversion.

Also my natural gas chamber soaks up the additional heat and gets pumped out into the steam room where it is converted into energy.

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You're missing the point, you will have to put less and less energy into heating, but more and more energy into cooling as time goes on.

The sour gas at 530C will gradually increase your starting 90C petroleum at the bottom of the counter flow because of the heat capacity difference, you'll need less and less magma sure because your starting temps will go from 90-530 to 100-530 then 110-530 etc.

Which means your already lacking cooling, due to how inefficient methane / sulfur is to cooling sour gas, starting temps will rise you wont be cooling 100C sour gas, your methane / sulfur counterflow will be cooling 110C, 120C 130C etc etc. So you'll get warmer and warmer sour gas hitting your thermo regulators, which will have to work harder.

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3 minutes ago, xenoborg said:

You're missing the point, you will have to put less and less energy into heating, but more and more energy into cooling as time goes on.

The sour gas at 530C will gradually increase your starting 90C petroleum at the bottom of the counter flow because of the heat capacity difference, you'll need less and less magma sure because your starting temps will go from 90-530 to 100-530 then 110-530 etc.

Which means your already lacking cooling, due to how inefficient methane / sulfur is to cooling sour gas, starting temps will rise you wont be cooling 100C sour gas, your methane / sulfur counterflow will be cooling 110C, 120C 130C etc etc. So you'll get warmer and warmer sour gas hitting your thermo regulators, which will have to work harder.

You thinking of it only in 1 dimension, it is not just crude vs the sour gas going in opposite directions. The actual sour gas also interacts with all the other sour gas below it and more so above it (which is hotter), tempshift plates will improve this equilibrium if the dimensions of the chamber requires it. Yes the crude will get hotter at the begining but only to a extent depending on how long/wide(pressure buildup) the the chamber is and how much crude you are pumping in.

Mine will run a litter hotter since I set the thermo sensor to 540 but being the door closes and opens slowly the temp spikes to the 560s+ and gradually goes down again. You can increase the performance on the heating by lowering the thermal sensor temp till a point where petroleum takes a moment to turn into sour gas. Or make a two stage / door conversion where the crude it turned into petroleum and then sour gas, giving a more efficient and stable system, but more bulky.

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Again you don't seem to grasp the fact that no matter what the temperatures are interacting with, you are adding more DTUs when you create sour gas and lose cooling DTUs when it turns into methane / sulfur. And this continually warms up everything.

Your starting crude oil / petroleum heats up constantly, which means your sour gas has even less thermal energy it can transfer into it as time goes on, which means theres more thermal energy that your methane / sulfur has to cool, and you lose thermal capacity during the sour gas to methane / sulfur conversion anyway.

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15 minutes ago, xenoborg said:

Again you don't seem to grasp the fact that no matter what the temperatures are interacting with, you are adding more DTUs when you create sour gas and lose cooling DTUs when it turns into methane / sulfur. And this continually warms up everything.

Your starting crude oil / petroleum heats up constantly, which means your sour gas has even less thermal energy it can transfer into it as time goes on, which means theres more thermal energy that your methane / sulfur has to cool, and you lose thermal capacity during the sour gas to methane / sulfur conversion anyway.

Not true, if it was the case then the temperatures would reach 540 C at the starting point for the crude in the far future? You not getting a flat 540 C at the one end(purely magma heat but also feedback heat from the existing sour gas), hence they getting more efficient over time as they reach a equilibrium. Think of like this, that door with the thermo sensor will close if the temp hits below 540, if that crude is flashing directly into sour gas because it got pre-heated from the previous sour gas, that door will remain open, thus cutting off the heating for that time, so not a constant heat source in that equation.

There is definitely an equation we can think up to work out the exact temperatures you will get at the starting point for the crude.

Something using the chamber length, heat transfers between crude/sour gas, sour gas heat transfer between its self, pressure, quantities used in crude/sour gas and thermals between materials used for pipes, and other items that interact.

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5 minutes ago, DRAKCORE said:

Not true, if it was the case then the temperatures would reach 540 C at the starting point for the crude in the far future? You not getting a flat 540 C at the one end(purely magma heat but also feedback heat from the existing sour gas), hence they getting more efficient over time as they reach a equilibrium. Think of like this, that door with the thermo sensor will close if the temp hits below 540, if that crude is flashing directly into sour gas because it got pre-heated from the previous sour gas, that door will remain open, thus cutting off the heating for that time, so not a constant heat source in that equation.

You are only getting the heating side more efficient, while making your cooling side work harder, I don't see whats complicated to understand about that?

540C sour gas and 90C petroleum, would equalize at 310-320C So that would be your starting temperature for your methane / sulfur cooling, your methane / sulfur cooling that already cant cool down an equal amount of sour gas, so your thermal regulators would be looking to have to cool down 150+C sour gas to -165C

Which at 3kgs is 1,793,610 DTU/s

Rather than doing what you should be doing and that is bleeding off heat from the sour gas to help the side that needs the efficiency the most because its the most inefficent part, the cooling.

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@DRAKCORE Ok, so 3kg/s of oil going in holds 456,300 DTU of heat.  The outgoing methane holds 438,200 DTU, and the sulfur 70,000 DTU, for a total of 508,200 DTU.  So your thermo-regulators have to pull the difference, or 51,900 DTU/s, which is about 1.55 thermo-regulators.  The video I saw was only processing 1 kg of oil/s so the thermo-regulators only had to work 1/3rd as much. Probably a little less than that even since the temperature gradient was lower due to having more pipe zig-zag in the heat exchanger.  Also I just noticed that the conversion from oil -> sulfur + natural gas deletes heat.  So the magma is putting more heat into the system than the thermo-regulators have to pull out.

 

Something may be gained by using an aqua-tuner to pre-heat the oil.  Leave a little more space between the incoming oil pipes and the liquid methane pipes for some space in the middle for the aqua-tuner to exchange coolant and pre-chill the sour gas.  Even with the aqua-tuner cooling petroleum as the coolant, it's still 46% more efficient than the hydrogen thermo-regulator.  You could try using polluted water instead for even better efficiency but risk it boiling in the pipes. I suppose with the petro coolant, it would only save you around 100 watts of power, but it could also do double duty pulling in extra heat from elsewhere that you want to get rid of.

 

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2 hours ago, xenoborg said:

Again you don't seem to grasp the fact that no matter what the temperatures are interacting with, you are adding more DTUs when you create sour gas and lose cooling DTUs when it turns into methane / sulfur. And this continually warms up everything.

Let me see if I get this.  At the cold plate, when the sour gas turns into sulfur and liquid methane, the SHC goes from 1.898 to 1.677.  That means that 1.898 DTU of heat had to be removed, and the liquid methane can only take care of no more than 1.677 of that, leaving 0.221 DTUs for the cold plate to make up.  At the same time when the oil changes to sour gas at the hot plate, its SHC changes from 1.690 to 1.898, so it only took 1.69J of heat to heat it up, but the incoming oil can only remove at most 1.690 DTC, leaving the hot plate to make up the 0.208 DTU difference.  Damn.  That sucks.  So the phase changes are like a phantom heat transfer from hot plate to cold plate that bypasses the heat exchanger.

 

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36 minutes ago, psusi said:

Let me see if I get this.  At the cold plate, when the sour gas turns into sulfur and liquid methane, the SHC goes from 1.898 to 1.677.  That means that 1.898 DTU of heat had to be removed, and the liquid methane can only take care of no more than 1.677 of that, leaving 0.221 DTUs for the cold plate to make up.  At the same time when the oil changes to sour gas at the hot plate, its SHC changes from 1.690 to 1.898, so it only took 1.69J of heat to heat it up, but the incoming oil can only remove at most 1.690 DTC, leaving the hot plate to make up the 0.208 DTU difference.  Damn.  That sucks.  So the phase changes are like a phantom heat transfer from hot plate to cold plate that bypasses the heat exchanger.

 

Sort of, Yes the methane / sulfur created from the sour gas, can only reduce the next gram of sour gas by 1.677 DTU/G/C so yes the aquatuner / themo regulator has to make up the difference, which is why you want your sour gas to be as cool as possible before it gets to your cold counterflow.

90C to -165C 3kg of sour gas takes 1,451,970 DTUs of cooling, 2kg of methane and 1kg of sulfur from -165 to 90C has 1,295,910 DTUs of cooling leaving 156,060 DTUs to get the sour gas from like -137 / -138C to -165C, thats with perfect instant transfer or perfect counterflow though so take it with a grain of salt.

The heating side is more interesting, as given enough perfect counterflow, if you could get the difference between the oil exit and the sour gas created from it within a few degrees it would basically cost you almost no heat to keep running, even if you didn't gain any DTUs from going from oil to sour gas, but as you do, you need to bleed heat from it either get it down to the incoming oil temperature ie 90C just before the oil comes in, or bleed lots of heat out of it after it comes in and before your cool counterflow, which is more efficient, given you could power a steam gen and get some power back.

This way you aren't spending cooling you don't need to, because left alone the sour gas will heat up more than the oil and methane / sulfur can remove until it hits an equilibrium with the incoming oils temperature, at which point it will cost you the most it ever will to cool down the sour gas.

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1 hour ago, xenoborg said:

You are only getting the heating side more efficient, while making your cooling side work harder, I don't see whats complicated to understand about that?

540C sour gas and 90C petroleum, would equalize at 310-320C So that would be your starting temperature for your methane / sulfur cooling, your methane / sulfur cooling that already cant cool down an equal amount of sour gas, so your thermal regulators would be looking to have to cool down 150+C sour gas to -165C

Which at 3kgs is 1,793,610 DTU/s

Rather than doing what you should be doing and that is bleeding off heat from the sour gas to help the side that needs the efficiency the most because its the most inefficent part, the cooling.

No way in hell would you be getting that temp at the starting point for the crude. That doesn't even make sense since the crude and sour gas have different heat capacities, you can't just add (540+90) = 630  then divide by 2 to get that 310-320c

And I am bleeding off some extra heat, which is the natural gas that is exported at a higher temp and converted into steam through the gens.

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5 minutes ago, DRAKCORE said:

No way in hell would you be getting that temp at the starting point for the crude. That doesn't even make sense since the crude and sour gas have different heat capacities, you can just add (540+90) = 630  then divide by 2 to get that 310-320c

And I am bleeding off some extra heat, which is the natural gas that is exported at a higher temp and converted into steam through the gens.

The Sour gas has more heat capacity, the second your oil hits 538, it gains heat capacity during phase change, it cant transfer all that heat back into the incoming oil, so the sour gas heats up the counterflow, its the same story with a crude oil to petroleum boiler, the petroleum slowly heats up which causes the starting temp of the crude to heat up, resulting in the exiting petroleum to gradually get hotter, as it has less of a temperature range to remove heat, it could start at 90-420 and will gradually go up to 100-420 110-420 given enough time.

theres only so much DTUs that can transfer from 540C sour gas to 90C petroleum before they equal out in temperature, which they will always do, the complex thing is finding what that temperature is so yeah 310-320 wouldnt be too far off depending on the counterflow length. How long it would take to get there is another story, a good few cycles depending on throughput, 10kgs will heat up faster than 3.

Again you dont bleed heat after the cold counterflow because you are wasting cooling you dont need to do. your natural gas has removed less heat from the sour gas, than just bleeding heat from the sour gas itself.

90C to -165C costs 156,500 DTUs of extra cooling that the methane/sulfer cant do. 150C to -165C with the methane and sulfur cooling if you could get them to 150C costs 192,780 DTUs extra for 3kgs

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The only way you are going to understand is if you start thinking in perfect instant transfer and counterflow.

The important thing to realise is that if you leave two elements in a room, it doesnt matter how many DTUs each one can hold they will always end up with the exact same temperature. Leave hot sour gas in the same room as cold crude oil and they will have the exact temperature.

Now think of a perfect petroleum counterflow, just one long line, knowing what I have said above now, it doesn't matter how many DTUs petroleum has over crude oil, if the very end of that counterflow the petroleum starts at 400C that is the maximum the Crude oil can reach, the petroleum cant give its extra DTUs to make the crude oil hotter than itself. The other end is different however, lets assume the crude oil comes in at exactly 0C, because the counterflow petroleum has more DTUs as it transfers its heat to the crude oil, that crude oil wont stay at 0C it will get warmer, because the petroleum will be warmer when it gets to the end of the counterflow due to the extra DTUs it has, the crude oil coming in will continue to get hotter, because 1) the petroleum has extra DTUs its putting into the crude oil counterflow and 2) as the incoming crude oil warms up the petroleum has less of a temperature gradient to move into. What started as 400C 0C (crude) and 400C 1C (petro) is now 400C 5C and 400C 6C

This will hit an equilibirum eventually where the incoming crude oil will be the exact same temperature as the outgoing petroleum, and like i said above the petroleum cant force its extra DTUs into the crude oil to make it hotter than itself.

Hope this helps get your head round what exactly is occuring, and because we cant deal with perfect transfers its very hard to know exactly what temperatures things will be.

 

Edit

You could however if you knew the exact numbers move a little extra crude oil through the pipes to completely cancel out the extra DTUs so it stays 400C 0C but you would slowly build up a stockpile of 400C Petroleum on the hot side.

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Sigh. 

You are not pumping in 540 C at all times, the very sour gas traveling down the chamber is exchanging heat not just with the crude but also the sour gas along that very same chamber, like a very inefficient temp-shift plate. That sour gas feedbacks to the very start with the source.

It has diminishing returns the longer the chamber, based off transfer rates of the gas and the speed which it is moving down the chamber, but you still getting feedback from the existing sour gas.

It is not as simple as two elements transferring heat. You have two elements exchanging heat while becoming the same element at the heat source and that element (sour gas) also exchanges heat with the already existing sour gas in that chamber.

There is not wastage of the cooling, the methane is piped backwards right up to the crude piping then back into the natural gas chamber where it flashes into natural gas, the chamber also has a few metal tiles to further stabilize the temperatures at the begining cool/heat exchange point.

 

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6 minutes ago, DRAKCORE said:

Sigh. 

You are not pumping in 540 C at all times, the very sour gas traveling down the chamber is exchanging heat not just with the crude but also the sour gas along that very same chamber, like a very inefficient temp-shift plate. That sour gas feedbacks to the very start with the source.

It has diminishing returns the longer the chamber, based off transfer rates of the gas and the speed which it is moving down the chamber, but you still getting feedback from the existing sour gas.

It is not as simple as two elements transferring heat. You have two elements exchanging heat while becoming the same element at the heat source and that element (sour gas) also exchanges heat with the already existing sour gas in that chamber.

There is not wastage of the cooling, the methane is piped backwards right up to the crude piping then back into the natural gas chamber where it flashes into natural gas, the chamber also has a few metal tiles to further stabilize the temperatures at the begining cool/heat exchange point.

 

You're really hurting my brain now, you HAVE to get rid of that sour gas heat somehow, it doesn't matter at all that the heat is moving about between the sour gas, all that matters is 1) you are adding more petroleum, which is flashing to sour gas and gaining more DTUs, and 2) those DTUs have to go somewhere, they are going into the petroleum through counterflow, but it isn't enough, so the input temps rise, and now your cooling has to remove hotter temperatures.

Your methane / sulfur does not cancel out the heat from sour gas, and it never will, ergo you will continue to spend more KJs on thermo regulators, because he overall sour gas temperatures in your boiler will rise, until the 540C 90C equilibrium.

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4 minutes ago, xenoborg said:

The only way you are going to understand is if you start thinking in perfect instant transfer and counterflow.

The important thing to realise is that if you leave two elements in a room, it doesnt matter how many DTUs each one can hold they will always end up with the exact same temperature. Leave hot sour gas in the same room as cold crude oil and they will have the exact temperature.

Now think of a perfect petroleum counterflow, just one long line, knowing what I have said above now, it doesn't matter how many DTUs petroleum has over crude oil, if the very end of that counterflow the petroleum starts at 400C that is the maximum the Crude oil can reach, the petroleum cant give its extra DTUs to make the crude oil hotter than itself. The other end is different however, lets assume the crude oil comes in at exactly 0C, because the counterflow petroleum has more DTUs as it transfers its heat to the crude oil, that crude oil wont stay at 0C it will get warmer, because the petroleum will be warmer when it gets to the end of the counterflow due to the extra DTUs it has, the crude oil coming in will continue to get hotter, because 1) the petroleum has extra DTUs its putting into the crude oil counterflow and 2) as the incoming crude oil warms up the petroleum has less of a temperature gradient to move into. What started as 400C 0C (crude) and 400C 1C (petro) is now 400C 5C and 400C 6C

This will hit an equilibirum eventually where the incoming crude oil will be the exact same temperature as the outgoing petroleum, and like i said above the petroleum cant force its extra DTUs into the crude oil to make it hotter than itself.

Hope this helps get your head round what exactly is occuring, and because we cant deal with perfect transfers its very hard to know exactly what temperatures things will be.

You comparing apples to oranges, and you still not clicking on that you not getting the 100% heat from the original source, the heat transfer from the petroleum to petroleum has feedback. Hence you slowing get more efficient over time and less energy to convert crude to petroleum (besides counterflow mechanics). It is not just the crude exchanging heat with the petroleum through the pipe, the actual petroleum is transferring heat down the line via itself. It is a secondary heat variable.

Just think about it, if we went off your thinking, crude has a heat capacity of 1.69 and petroleum of 1.76, which is a 4% difference. I use airflow tiles in a vacuum so no energy is lost. You would have the very pump at the begining where the cool crude use to come in overheating, even if it was steel over time.

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3 minutes ago, DRAKCORE said:

You comparing apples to oranges, and you still not clicking on that you not getting the 100% heat from the original source, the heat transfer from the petroleum to petroleum has feedback. Hence you slowing get more efficient over time and less energy to convert crude to petroleum (besides counterflow mechanics). It is not just the crude exchanging heat with the petroleum through the pipe, the actual petroleum is transferring heat down the line via itself. It is a secondary heat variable.

Just think about it, if we went off your thinking, crude has a heat capacity of 1.69 and petroleum of 1.76, which is a 4% difference. I use airflow tiles in a vacuum so no energy is lost. You would have the very pump at the begining where the cool crude use to come in overheating, even if it was steel over time.

Please read and understand, it doesn't matter how many DTUs one element has over another, at some point in time they will both be the exact same temperature, so yes given perfect counterflow, and a lot of cycles, like a lot of cycles, that crude oil if it had perfect instant heat transfer, would be the exact same temperature in the first pipe as the petroleum coming out. Even if you listen to yourself, the heat gets transfered backwards too, so what part don't you get about turning one element into another with higher DTUs in a room will make the average temperature in that room hotter? and therefore the starting temperature of the counterflow.

I have spent a few thousand cycles watching sour gas boilers doing exactly what I describe, the input crude oil heats up from its original starting temperature, because it cannot remove the DTUs from equal kg sour gas packets, and the cooling section warms up over time because of this and because methane / sulfur removes less DTUs than an equal amount of Kg sour gas.

So yes the best thing to do is remove DTUs from sour gas itself before it gets to the cooling counterflow, to save yourself several Kjs of cooling requirements.

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xeno's right here drak.  The phase change is stealing extra heat from the hot plate, and right now it is delivering it to the cold plate, so your coolers are working harder.  I think he has been hinting that the fix is to have an aquatuner in the middle cooling the sour gas some more between the oil and methane pipes.  That way the phase change heat transfer will be moving the heat between the hot plate and the aquatuner instead of the cold plate, which you can cool more efficiently.

 

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