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Artorias36

Super Sustainable Achievements

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Artorias36    10

I am trying to get all achievements in one map. I thought carnivore was hard but this is just a pain. I am on cycle 160 and still 200k / 240k. Are there any tips to make this achievement less painful, at least if i will try another time to get all achievement on a different map i can use precious advices.

My setup is mainly hamster wheels and 5 hydrogen generators linked to 6 electrolyzers. But it may take other 40 cycles to do those 40k left.

I thought about setting solar panels, but the robo miners cooling is quite challenging without petrolium.

 

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nakomaru    1,415

If you are otherwise suited to get this done with solar panels, you can build doors to crush the regolith for you. No cooling needed.

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Ketmol    147

My solution was using a map with volcano trait. It is fairly easy to set up a volcano powered steam turbine room without any space materials and it can be done very early.

What I did was hamsterwheel my way through the first 100+ cycles until I got the tech and duplicant skill needed for taming volcanoes (or at least for the way I want to do it, moving the hat around with transport belts.)

II don't remember exactly but I think I was done with super sustainable around cycle 300 or so...

 

 

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KittenIsAGeek    1,199
On 11/4/2019 at 11:10 AM, Artorias36 said:

I am trying to get all achievements in one map. I thought carnivore was hard but this is just a pain. I am on cycle 160 and still 200k / 240k. Are there any tips to make this achievement less painful, at least if i will try another time to get all achievement on a different map i can use precious advices.

My setup is mainly hamster wheels and 5 hydrogen generators linked to 6 electrolyzers. But it may take other 40 cycles to do those 40k left.

I thought about setting solar panels, but the robo miners cooling is quite challenging without petrolium.

 

Super Sustainable does take quite a bit of time.  It took me about 100 cycles on my map, using a combination of hamster wheels, hydrogen, and steam power.  One thing I noticed is that it only counts power that is both generated AND used.  So overproducing doesn't help your numbers.  This means that to get it done quickly, you need to sustain a high load.  

6 electrolyzers only draw 720 watts of power, while your 5 hydrogen generators are producing 4kw (or 6kw, with tuneups).  Without additional load, only the 720 watts will be counted toward your achievement.

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Artorias36    10

Thanks. This explain why it was taking so long. I did it by cycle 220 but i really hope the developers will adjust this cause is simply a waste of time. Unlike carnivore or localist it doesn't provide any challenge imo, it is just annoying.

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KittenIsAGeek    1,199
1 hour ago, Artorias36 said:

Thanks. This explain why it was taking so long. I did it by cycle 220 but i really hope the developers will adjust this cause is simply a waste of time. Unlike carnivore or localist it doesn't provide any challenge imo, it is just annoying.

Well, it does sort of present a challenge.  Often the power progression goes from hamster wheels to coal, which is plentiful and doesn't need a lot of infrastructure to set up.   Following that, players often go to natural gas generators, because there's often a nearby nat gas vent.  To obtain Super Sustainable, however, you have to go straight from hamster wheels to hydrogen (and/or steam).  While I'll agree that it isn't particularly difficult to do, it can also be somewhat of a challenge because it strays from the normal research/build progression.

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Artorias36    10

I meant that since to complete carnivore in time you are forced to have at least 10 dupes, 16 being the best, you are also forced to use electrolyer with hydrogen generator setup. I completed carnivore on cycle 92 and i realised i had just done 60/240 of super sustainable. At this point my colony had enough food, enough oxygens and enough power to self sustain. I had to wait almost 150 cycles of pretty much doing anything except expanding just because i had to wait this achievement. It did not provide any challenge in my game, just frustration of having to  wait so many cycles.

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KittenIsAGeek    1,199
25 minutes ago, Artorias36 said:

I meant that since to complete carnivore in time you are forced to have at least 10 dupes, 16 being the best, you are also forced to use electrolyer with hydrogen generator setup. I completed carnivore on cycle 92 and i realised i had just done 60/240 of super sustainable. 

Carnivore and Super Sustainable are different achievement types.  For "Carnivore" you have to quickly eat a lot of only meat.  Super Sustainable is meant as a long-term achievement.  The goal for Super Sustainable is to build a base that is.. um.. super sustainable.  In other words, the base doesn't use fossil fuels (or ethanol).  Its intended to be a design goal achievement rather than a quick grind one.  Certainly you can produce a HUGE amount of power very quickly by simply burning off the H2 from your carnivore map, but that does nothing for the long-term sustainability of your base.

30 minutes ago, Artorias36 said:

I had to wait almost 150 cycles of pretty much doing anything except expanding just because i had to wait this achievement.

I don't understand why you "had to wait" for this achievement.  Is it not possible to both expand your base AND continue developing it in a way that continues to use only renewable resources?  I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just curious.  I just don't understand the reasoning.

Certainly some achievements appear to be designed for grinding, such as Locavore and Carnivore.  Others are more of an "as you go," type achievement, like "One Year, to be Exact" or "Slick."  You don't really have to do anything for those except play the game.  Should the difficulty of "Carnivore" be reduced because of how hard it is compared to "Slick?"  The comparison doesn't make sense to me because they're categorically different.

Are some achievements complimentary?  Certainly!  You need 20 dupes for "No Place like Clone."  More dupes mean more mouths, so "Carnivore" becomes easier.  More dupes also means more oxygen, so more electrolyzers.  Which means more hydrogen, making "Super Sustainable" a bit easier to manage.  

I also don't understand the "You're forced to.." line of arguments.  Certainly there are requirements for various achievements, but no one is forcing you to solve those requirements in a particular way.  Start on a map with lots of algae and you can easily get "Carnivore" without having to use electrolyzers.  

I suppose that this is a symptom of schooling -- one that I've complained a LOT about in the pursuit of my education.  We're taught to only look at a problem from one perspective, or that a particular problem is solved only with a particular tool.  We're educated out of the adaptive creativity all children are born with and it limits our ability to grow.  I'm not saying that schooling is bad.  There's certainly a lot of benefit to a well-rounded education.  Rather, I'm disappointed that the process reduces our ability to discover alternative approaches to problem solving.  We lose our diversity for the sake of conformity and soon we find ourselves at the point that when we look at a door, we only see a door.  We don't see the potential of said door to be a table, or a desk, or an automation-controlled vacuum regulated thermal transfer device..

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6Havok9    229
7 hours ago, Artorias36 said:

I meant that since to complete carnivore in time you are forced to have at least 10 dupes, 16 being the best, you are also forced to use electrolyer with hydrogen generator setup. I completed carnivore on cycle 92 and i realised i had just done 60/240 of super sustainable. At this point my colony had enough food, enough oxygens and enough power to self sustain. I had to wait almost 150 cycles of pretty much doing anything except expanding just because i had to wait this achievement. It did not provide any challenge in my game, just frustration of having to  wait so many cycles.

I have to disagree. I just completed my locavore/carnivore achievement on my current colony, max difficulty settings, with carnivore completed on cycle 97, and I reached 5 dupes count approaching cycle 80/90. On Arboria, without going for the space biome, all from the single hatch you are granted at the start. Now at 9 dupes, I am barely at 20k/240k of super sustainable, on a metal poor, mixed boulders, magma channels asteroid.

I had no time to tame any water source, I'm running on rust deoxydizers, everything was painfully slow because every dupe is specialized in something and they just did THAT ONE thing all the time (e.g. ranchers), while the diggers frequently got wounded from digging in nasty places. But eventually things got done.

I had to build a short, ugly hamster wheel powered heavy watt wire circuit. It consumes a lot of dupe time... but hey, it builds up athletics and machinery. And makes things even slower.

It's exactly what I wanted. I'll probably reach space by cycle 400/600, if this trend continues, but still, it works. I risked starvation for 70 cycles out of 100, then suffocation, now I risk starvation again because I yellow/red alert all the time to get things done.

It's slow because it's your choice to make it slow. The fastest thing is debug mode... You can still expand, dig out, and build structures without consuming any energy. You just build/dig and leave them disconnected until you want them go go online.

You DID NOT HAVE to wait for that achievement. It was your choice, and it has implications on your gameplay. If it was easier/faster... meh. This reminds me of an old topic where achievements were explained as potentially harmful, depending on how the player approached them. I did agree with parts of it. I can't find it, I would link it if I could. 

You get the point, I hope.

 

Edit: I understand that the map type forces your hand a lot. Francis is speedrunning the achievements on a Rime map and pretty much chewing through them. He chose to make it fast, and it has... implications on his gameplay :mrgreen:

 

 

Edited by 6Havok9
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Artorias36    10

 

My base was already sustainable. So in my own way i was already in the spirit of the achievement. I produced more powers for 16 dupes without using anything but hamsteer wheels and hydrogen generator. I disagree with the design too. The moment you put a limit, you are setting up a grinding achievement. If the achievement was something like "reach the temporal tear without building any coal / petrolum, etc or complete all other achievements without ever building coal / petrolium etc" then i would agree it was a design choice achievment. You put a big no on those building for the rest of your playtrought and you are forced to play without them. But thats not the case, there is no limit of cycles so you are not forced to create a good setup to consume as much as power as you can before the deadline. The only limit is the amount of energy which is just pure grinding. As i learned on this thread, the energy counted is just the one spent and not produced, if it was the other way around i would probably not have written this topic cause i am pretty sure i produced tons of energy more than i used.

 

22 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I don't understand why you "had to wait" for this achievement.  Is it not possible to both expand your base AND continue developing it in a way that continues to use only renewable resources?  I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just curious.  I just don't understand the reasoning.

Of course is possible and i did expand, it was just boring cause when you have 3 natural geyser on your seed you want a giant natural generator setup linked to your slicksters, all things that i couldn't do until I get this achievement. The reason to place nat gas gen was to reduce dupes time and expand much faster. In 120 cycles with those generators that don't requires any dupes time, i could expand like 10 times faster.

 

22 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I also don't understand the "You're forced to.." line of arguments.  Certainly there are requirements for various achievements, but no one is forcing you to solve those requirements in a particular way.  Start on a map with lots of algae and you can easily get "Carnivore" without having to use electrolyzers.  

I disagree, if it says you cannot plant anything in farm box, it is forcing you to either ranch or wild plants. If it says you have to eat 400k of meat, it is forcing you to ranch and based on your cycle it is also forcing you to get more dupes (i dislike the binge eater setup as i consider it a bug or exploit)
 

If it says that you can only use 3 power generator types, it is forcing you to use just those. Like i said before, if it was a big no forever then this achievement would been more fun than it is, but when you put a 240k limit you are asking for grinding and it is plain boring.

22 hours ago, 6Havok9 said:

I have to disagree. I just completed my locavore/carnivore achievement on my current colony, max difficulty settings, with carnivore completed on cycle 97, and I reached 5 dupes count approaching cycle 80/90. On Arboria, without going for the space biome, all from the single hatch you are granted at the start. Now at 9 dupes, I am barely at 20k/240k of super sustainable, on a metal poor, mixed boulders, magma channels asteroid

Because you used different settings. If you play on normal your 5 dupes wouldn't suffice. You have 5 dupes that  eats like 10, i had 10 that eats like 10. The point stands, is your base ok now? Can 5 dupes lives without any special effort on your side? If yes your base is self sustainable and yet you are at 1/10 of that achievement.

 

22 hours ago, 6Havok9 said:

It's slow because it's your choice to make it slow. The fastest thing is debug mode... You can still expand, dig out, and build structures without consuming any energy. You just build/dig and leave them disconnected until you want them go go online.

And thats what i did, but to me, is no fun.

 

22 hours ago, 6Havok9 said:

You DID NOT HAVE to wait for that achievement. It was your choice, and it has implications on your gameplay. If it was easier/faster... meh. This reminds me of an old topic where achievements were explained as potentially harmful, depending on how the player approached them. I did agree with parts of it. I can't find it, I would link it if I could. 

You get the point, I hope.

No my point is different. I could either :

a) do something else and check my computer when the achievement was done because all i had to do was wait to reach the 240k cap
b)  ignore the achievment that posed no challenge at all and continue playing the game in the most fun way (for my own tastes)

I choosed A. Now that i have done it, i can continue playing in the most fun way. In my opinion they should either lower this cap, even 100k is enough, or add a complete different achievement that doesn't allow you to ever build those power plants.

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KittenIsAGeek    1,199

You make some good arguments, but I still disagree.

On 11/6/2019 at 12:36 PM, Artorias36 said:

I meant that since to complete carnivore in time you are forced to have at least 10 dupes, 16 being the best, you are also forced to use electrolyer with hydrogen generator setup. 

Here you claim that you are "forced to use" an electrolyzer and hydrogen generator setup.  I disagree.  You were not forced to. There are MANY methods of supplying oxygen to ten dupes that don't require an electrolyzer.  Also, just because you're using an electrolyzer doesn't mean you also are forced to use a hydrogen generator.  It may be the simplest route, but it is not the ONLY route.  You aren't forced into anything. You chose to make that design choice.  
Additionally, you claim that you are "forced to have" at least 10 dupes.  You even go further with this line of argument.  When @6Havok9 gives an example of doing it with only 5 dupes, you claim that its only because he used different settings.  So what?  The settings are there for the player to chose whether or not they wish to use them.  He wasn't FORCED to use different settings. He chose to.  Just as you aren't forced to use 10 dupes, you chose to.

You also make the argument that because you don't have to remain sustainable until the end of time that the Super Sustainable achievement is a grinding achievement.  Again, I disagree completely with this.  Can you grind it? Certainly.  You can grind just about anything you set your mind to.  However, I do not believe that grinding is in the spirit of the achievement.  You could easily have continued to expand and grow your base and your electric power grid until the achievement clicked.  Or you could have gone "full grind" and built 4kw worth of refridgerators to burn off all that extra power your hydrogen generators could provide.  You could have taken another 20 dupes for the achieve and doubled your power production.  10kw of refrigerators would have had you done in 25 cycles.  Instead, you claim that you were "forced to wait."  Again, this was a personal choice, not the game forcing you into a method of action.  You CHOSE the option to wait, so that you could later expand by using your natural gas vents.

I will admit that there are some achievements that require a very specific methodology, such as the Locavore that prevents you from using planter boxes.  However, that isn't forcing you into a specific action.  You can chose whether or not you want to go for that achievement.  If you make the choice to try for Locavore, then you are also choosing to not use planter boxes.  Its a choice.  Even if someone held a gun to your head, the choice would still be yours to make.  Granted, one of the choices could go very badly, but you still have the power to choose.

Finally, you point out that you had two choices when it came to Super Sustainable:

19 minutes ago, Artorias36 said:

a) do something else and check my computer when the achievement was done because all i had to do was wait to reach the 240k cap
b)  ignore the achievment that posed no challenge at all and continue playing the game in the most fun way (for my own tastes)

I see many more choices.  You could have:

  1. Done something else until the achieve was done.
  2. Ignored the achievement because "its too challenging" and continued to play how you wanted. (If something poses a problem you have to work around, it isn't "no challenge."  Sorry.)
  3. Designed and built your slickster farms and large power plant room without actually building the generators.  Get all the infrastructure in place, then hook up the power when you're ready.
  4. Put your power plant/slickster farm design on hold and work toward a different goal.  Maybe start some space exploration.
  5. Go "full grind" and burn off a lot of that power, run on more hamster wheels, get more dupes. Build a thousand lightbulbs.  Whatever it takes to get 'er done quick.

These are just the ones that come off the top of my head.  You didn't have to wait. You chose to.

 

29 minutes ago, Artorias36 said:

As i learned on this thread, the energy counted is just the one spent and not produced, if it was the other way around i would probably not have written this topic cause i am pretty sure i produced tons of energy more than i used.

I'm certain that you were producing a lot more energy than you were using.  The achievement only counts power that is both produced AND used. With as many hydrogen generators as you claimed were running, the achieve could have taken a mere 50 or 60 cycles without making any dupes run on hamster wheels. 

Thank you for this discussion.  I have nothing against you and I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I am simply passionate about the freedom of choice and the application of creativity.  It is my firm belief that there are many solutions to any given problem.  If you don't like the obvious solution, find another way.  No one can EVER force you to do anything.  You may feel that you are forced, but the choice is always yours.

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Artorias36    10
18 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Here you claim that you are "forced to use" an electrolyzer and hydrogen generator setup.  I disagree.  You were not forced to. There are MANY methods of supplying oxygen to ten dupes that don't require an electrolyzer.  Also, just because you're using an electrolyzer doesn't mean you also are forced to use a hydrogen generator.  It may be the simplest route, but it is not the ONLY route.  You aren't forced into anything. You chose to make that design choice.  
Additionally, you claim that you are "forced to have" at least 10 dupes.  You even go further with this line of argument.  When @6Havok9 gives an example of doing it with only 5 dupes, you claim that its only because he used different settings.  So what?  The settings are there for the player to chose whether or not they wish to use them.  He wasn't FORCED to use different settings. He chose to.  Just as you aren't forced to use 10 dupes, you chose to.

You misunderstand. My settings forced me those choices. I did not say that everyone has to choose my settings, i said that those settings, that map, that particular seed, forced me to make those choices. Different choices wouldn't grant me most of those achievements. Maybe i express myself wrong since english is not my native language. I was forced to use 10 dupes or i wouldn't be able to consume the 400k of meats in time. It is a math issue after all when you have X cycles left and you can only consume Y kcal, you have to raise your dupes.

My point stands, even in the case of 6Havok9, after 100 cycles he is only at 1/10 of that achievement. He choose a different path that worked out for him, but my path worked better to complete that achievement faster.

 

26 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I see many more choices.  You could have:

  1. Done something else until the achieve was done.
  2. Ignored the achievement because "its too challenging" and continued to play how you wanted. (If something poses a problem you have to work around, it isn't "no challenge."  Sorry.)
  3. Designed and built your slickster farms and large power plant room without actually building the generators.  Get all the infrastructure in place, then hook up the power when you're ready.
  4. Put your power plant/slickster farm design on hold and work toward a different goal.  Maybe start some space exploration.
  5. Go "full grind" and burn off a lot of that power, run on more hamster wheels, get more dupes. Build a thousand lightbulbs.  Whatever it takes to get 'er done quick.

These are just the ones that come off the top of my head.  You didn't have to wait. You chose to.

1) I did something else, dug and build at least the infrastructure of what my powers gen would be, etc as well as bunker doors, petrolium setup, plastic setup, vents, pipes.
2) But this is where we differ opinion, is not challenging, i did it after 40 more cycles from when i wrote this thread, i consider it annoying as it doesn't pose any challenge except going on slower pace that i would have if i build other kind of power generator.
3)Yes i did that, as i said on point 1, i started on cycle 120, but the achievement was done 100 cycles after.
4) Did that too, but again is boring when your dupes need 5 cycles to do something that you know already takes max 1 if they don't run on hamsteer wheels.
5) You told me that and i am thankful, but still i consider this achievement too grindy, thinking of ways to burn power is simply not fun.

 

 

33 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Thank you for this discussion.  I have nothing against you and I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I am simply passionate about the freedom of choice and the application of creativity.  It is my firm belief that there are many solutions to any given problem.  If you don't like the obvious solution, find another way.  No one can EVER force you to do anything.  You may feel that you are forced, but the choice is always yours.

I never thought that don't worry, but i still think that based on your map and based on your settings, there are few options left to do if you want to get ALL achievement. If you don't care then yes any map can be played as you want of course.

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