Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.

Recommended Posts

maradyne    4,957

Recently been encountering the Out Of Memory issue more often server-side, as many have before; as the modding community gets more creative and expansive, this problem gets more common. The game just can't handle what the community is coming up with.

It's been stated by a dev in the past that a full 64-bit game client upgrade isn't in the cards due to not wanting to raise minimum specs.
But, would a separate 64-bit server be considered? It would help alleviate some of the growing issues, at least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790

what mods were they using on their servers? 4 GiB of memory per process is a pretty huge allowance for a game like DST, i've seen people run tons of mods without running out of memory, so it's hardly a "growing issue"

DST's engine is klei's own made in c++ (using fmod as their sound engine, bullet as their physics engine, and angle for directx support), so while i don't think it would be difficult, it's not as easy as flipping a switch in something like unity3d like people seem to assume

i would rather have klei optimise the game further and encourage modders to do their own optimising, if possible, since i feel like people think switching to 64-bit will fix all of their problems

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
maradyne    4,957

I fully realize that it isn't as easy as flipping a switch, and that it won't fix everything; regardless, it would still be beneficial. It would also help with small servers using a few mods in the mid-late game, particularly those heavier on calculation than graphics. Wouldn't have to keep restarting the process to keep the thing running as often.

A few of the large mods being used at once can quickly cause the issue. Megarandom, Waiter, the various overhauls and equipment expansions...
The last server I experienced it on was a Forged Forge Playable Pets test; just FF and a bunch of tailored characters.

On that note, not having to worry about Out Of Memory issues would also make testing a bit easier. Mods should optimize of course, but that's no reason to limit the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790
15 minutes ago, maradyne said:

It would also help with small servers using a few mods in the mid-late game, particularly those heavier on calculation than graphics. Wouldn't have to keep restarting the process to keep the thing running as often.

i don't see how increasing the memory limit makes calculations better

if it's about using more precise number types: DST already does precise calculations using 64-bit floating points (doubles) as its sole number type

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
maradyne    4,957
12 minutes ago, Jessie223 said:

i don't see how increasing the memory limit makes calculations better

Not that it makes them better; it leaves room for more to happen at once. Essential for using several large mods in a long-term world.

I'm referring to running servers using the separated server process, not from in-game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790
5 minutes ago, maradyne said:

Not that it makes them better; it leaves room for more to happen at once.

more memory doesn't mean more simultaneous computations, memory is just for temporary storage

7 minutes ago, maradyne said:

I'm referring to running servers using the separated server process, not from in-game.

running a dedicated server isn't that much different from running a server from the game client

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
maradyne    4,957
8 minutes ago, Jessie223 said:

more memory doesn't mean more simultaneous computations, memory is just for temporary storage

Right. Storage of information. Required for server operation.
Which is currently somewhat prone to running out.
I'm not sure I see the point of the distinction.

Servers run out of memory and cease to function. This interrupts gameplay.

It'd be nice if that were addressed, and there are other games that have implemented cross-play between 64-bit and 32-bit versions.
Klei has somewhat of a solution to the graphic storage issues with the DYN setup; it's not perfect, but it's something.
Servers could use something to match.

 

 

Link to some of the older topics for anyone curious, including posts by devs and their reasons for not initially wanting to go 64:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790
Just now, maradyne said:

Right. Storage of information. Required for server operation.
Which is currently somewhat prone to running out.
I'm not sure I see the point of the distinction.

you implied that more memory meant more concurrent operations running at once, which isn't the case

ram doesn't work like magic, just think of it like a faster hard disk

in fact, you can use your hard disk for memory (virtual memory) and you can use your ram like a hard disk (ram disk)

Just now, maradyne said:

Servers run out of memory and cease to function. This interrupts gameplay.

It'd be nice if that were addressed, and there are other games that have implemented cross-play between 64-bit and 32-bit versions.

i still think this is a very special case, this doesn't happen often enough for everyone else to be a big issue

12 minutes ago, maradyne said:

Link to some of the older topics for anyone curious, including posts by devs and their reasons for not initially wanting to go 64:

12 minutes ago, maradyne said:

initially

not initially, they still currently don't want to port the game over to 64-bit for valid reasons

a developer even talks about it there on the last thread you've linked

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
maradyne    4,957
9 minutes ago, Jessie223 said:

in fact, you can use your hard disk for memory (virtual memory) and you can use your ram like a hard disk (ram disk)

i still think this is a very special case, this doesn't happen often enough for everyone else to be a big issue

Right, I usually set my VM somewhat high for edge cases whenever I get a new comp; might as well if it's there. Unfortunately, DST can't really take advantage of it.

 

It is definitely a special case. Doesn't happen often, most people who play the game will probably never experience OoM.
Just suggesting that it might be worthwhile, because a server could absolutely run as 64-bit while supporting 32-bit clients for crazy community shenanigans. I'm not always the best with communication, though that was what I was trying to get at; server handles the back-end, while the client only has to handle the local area around them (well, and a few weird global things).
The option for a more powerful server would be beneficial to large, sustained community servers, and big 'event' servers, as well as making solo play a smoother experience in some cases.

Major priority that Klei should put everything into right now? Nah. But still something worth looking into.

If not this, then perhaps they can work on other server-side optimizations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790
2 hours ago, maradyne said:

as well as making solo play a smoother experience in some cases.

64-bit being able to support ridiculously expansive servers is true, however making the game run smoother is not something it'll do in any case

i just want it to be clear that the only thing 64-bit will practically do is increase the memory limit for each process, there won't be noticable performance improvements

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Saiph    28
On 30/10/2019 at 1:42 AM, Jessie223 said:

what mods were they using on their servers? 4 GiB of memory per process is a pretty huge allowance for a game like DST, i've seen people run tons of mods without running out of memory, so it's hardly a "growing issue"

DST's engine is klei's own made in c++ (using fmod as their sound engine, bullet as their physics engine, and angle for directx support), so while i don't think it would be difficult, it's not as easy as flipping a switch in something like unity3d like people seem to assume

i would rather have klei optimise the game further and encourage modders to do their own optimising, if possible, since i feel like people think switching to 64-bit will fix all of their problems

I do think it's a growing issue. Look at the mods "Tropical Experience" and "Island Adventures", both of them have 50 000 + subscribers and I guarantee most people playing with these mods suffer from this limit a lot. IA has a an "Out of memory" section in FAQ and recommends to reduce the size of the map, while Tropical Experience recommend setting "Small Textures" in the comments when playing with other mods. You don't need to play with tons of mods, just a few big ones are enough (just Multi Worlds + Tropical Experience is enough for me).

They did the 64-bit port for MacOS Catalina quite easily, so I think it's fair to say the switch would be technically easy for them. I respect Klei dev team and think there's probably an other reason they don't want to make the change. However the "minspecs" one I don't really get. Some other Steam games have both 32/64 bit releases and let you choose the one you want.

On the contrary, optimizing is probably much harder and risky than porting the game to 64 bit (at least now that they have made it for macOS).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790
21 minutes ago, Saiph said:

I do think it's a growing issue. Look at the mods "Tropical Experience" and "Island Adventures", both of them have 50 000 + subscribers and I guarantee most people playing with these mods suffer from this limit a lot. IA has a an "Out of memory" section in FAQ and recommends to reduce the size of the map, while Tropical Experience recommend setting "Small Textures" in the comments when playing with other mods. You don't need to play with tons of mods, just a few big ones are enough (just Multi Worlds + Tropical Experience is enough for me).

i'm not really sure how this is klei's issue to fix

21 minutes ago, Saiph said:

They did the 64-bit port for MacOS Catalina quite easily, so I think it's fair to say the switch would be technically easy for them. I respect Klei dev team and think there's probably an other reason they don't want to make the change. However the "minspecs" one I don't really get. Some other Steam games have both 32/64 bit releases and let you choose the one you want.

On the contrary, optimizing is probably much harder and risky than porting the game to 64 bit (at least now that they have made it for macOS).

klei prioritises compatibility as of now: they made a 64-bit osx port for catalina for compatibility reasons, not for performance or memory reasons

i don't believe that klei will switch DST to 64-bit as long as linux and windows are still supporting 32-bit applications

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
maradyne    4,957
5 hours ago, Jessie223 said:

i'm not really sure how this is klei's issue to fix

It really isn't. But it would be beneficial to the game; when modding first started out with this game, there was actually one dev focusing on working with mod creators to see what was needed. There are still some mod-specific design elements/leftover compatibility that you can spot in the game files (several of those instances have dev comments indicating them).
It would be helpful to not only the modding community, but the players they serve; people associating a game with crashing and modders having to tell people 'you can't play with all of your favorites at once due to game limitations' is never a positive, at least. Whether that's 100% accurate or not...that seems to be where we're at, and due to a game limitation being part of the problem, it catches on.

Again, whether it's a good use of Klei's time, or a good use of their time right now, is questionable. But...I do feel that it's something that should be considered, and something that should happen eventually.

 

That said, they mentioned looking into some memory optimizations a while back. If it's anything beyond the dynamic loading expansion, there might be something to look forward to there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Saiph    28
10 hours ago, Jessie223 said:

i'm not really sure how this is klei's issue to fix

You don't see how 50k+ players encoutering "Out of Memory" crashes here and there is not Klei's issue ?

10 hours ago, Jessie223 said:

klei prioritises compatibility as of now: they made a 64-bit osx port for catalina for compatibility reasons, not for performance or memory reasons

i don't believe that klei will switch DST to 64-bit as long as linux and windows are still supporting 32-bit applications

I didn't claim they did it for memory reasons. I said if they managed to do it easily for Mac, then it's probably not a technical problem to do it also on Windows.

Well you suggested earlier that they optimize the game, following your argument I would say that as long as the game is working on your PC they don't have to optimize it more...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790
54 minutes ago, Saiph said:

You don't see how 50k+ players encoutering "Out of Memory" crashes here and there is not Klei's issue ?

klei didn't cause those, a mod did

so like every other problem caused by mods, that isn't klei's problem

i'm not exactly sure why this is hard to grasp

54 minutes ago, Saiph said:

I didn't claim they did it for memory reasons. I said if they managed to do it easily for Mac, then it's probably not a technical problem to do it also on Windows.

how do you know they did it easily for catalina?

i was still guessing when i said earlier that it wouldn't be difficult

54 minutes ago, Saiph said:

Well you suggested earlier that they optimize the game, following your argument I would say that as long as the game is working on your PC they don't have to optimize it more...

i don't understand what this is even trying to say

klei doing some optimisation, especially with memory, will not sacrifice compatibility

klei switching the game to 64-bit will sacrifice compatibility

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Saiph    28

No one asks for the game to switch to 64 bit. People ask for a separate version in 64 bit, that you can select when launching, just as many Steam games already do. The OP even asked for a server version, which will hardly affect anyone. (But I ask also for a client 64 bit version, if they want to keep the modding community alive in the long run). How will that affect compatibility at all ?

Let's agree that we have different views on modding. However I don't get why you're against it, as it won't take you anything from the normal game and it won't take Klei significant dev time, because they already updated the code to support it. And I'm quite confident they will have to make the switch anyway at some point...

Also not sure if that's what you're thinking, but it's not possible for modders to "optimize" anything at all. All the mods are run inside a LUA virtual machine, the low-level memory management is done by Klei's c++ engine and an automatic garbage collector, modders have no way to access it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790

i wasn't asking modders to do low-level optimisations, i don't get this part lol

remember that more versions of the game means even more versions that they need to support

and i don't have a negative view of modding, i just think problems caused by mods aren't klei's problems to solve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
--- -.-    3,373
On 11/2/2019 at 9:15 AM, Saiph said:

I ask also for a client 64 bit version, if they want to keep the modding community alive in the long run

DST is very outdated, other than selling skins for $$$ it's not up to date as other games which have both versions and have textures which don't like an upscaled blurry mess. It needs to get with times and fix both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790

the textures aren't that blurry, you're not supposed to play with the camera right up your character's face

people wanting HD-everything is pretty funny tbh, the game's not a screenshot simulator

and again: mods needing over 4 GiB of memory are super rare cases, stop acting like this is a huge problem that everyone has

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
--- -.-    3,373
1 hour ago, Jessie223 said:

people wanting HD-everything is pretty funny tbh, the game's not a screenshot simulator

You know what’s more funny? Someone being against the idea of HD textures! Judging from how much you replied here it seems you are very adamant on DST to stop evolving.

Not everyone plays on a potatoe and I’m sorry if you do which’s why you’re against the idea of DST becoming more demanding, but some people like me would like to play a game with graphics which don’t like a 64x64 image upscaled 5x.

64-bit DST and HD textures will only add to the game, other companies including smaller indie companies than Klei do it, so Klei should try to bring their games up to date too.

 

Also, I haven’t mentioned mods at all. Why are you telling me stuff about 4 GiB mods?

I want 64-bit DST because I heard other people say it’s the only way to have HD textures. I even wouldn’t mind rebuying a 64-bit DST with 4k textures they did something similar with one of their other games, ninja or whatever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790
1 hour ago, Warbucks said:

You know what’s more funny? Someone being against the idea of HD textures! Judging from how much you replied here it seems you are very adamant on DST to stop evolving.

64-bit DST and HD textures will only add to the game, other companies including smaller indie companies than Klei do it, so Klei should try to bring their games up to date too.

the game looks fine, there is nothing to "evolve" graphically right now: again, the game looks perfectly ok at normal zoom

you only get to see blurry textures when you zoom all the way in, which in my opinion is a plainly silly way to play the game

some textures are actually ridiculously huge that i think they should be scaled down by a step, since you'll never even get to see them near their true scale in-game

1 hour ago, Warbucks said:

Not everyone plays on a potatoe and I’m sorry if you do which’s why you’re against the idea of DST becoming more demanding,

the game runs ok on my machine, but i'd find it very asinine if the game ate up multiple times more memory just to look a bit better on the extremely rare occasion that i zoom in

loading times are also already annoyingly long even when i use a ramdisk

and still, klei currently prioritises compatibility and performance over graphics, they wouldn't drop support for a chunk of their playerbase just to appease the tiny minority that wants to turn the game into a screenshot-taking simulator

1 hour ago, Warbucks said:

but some people like me would like to play a game with graphics which don’t like a 64x64 image upscaled 5x.

please point me to an asset in the game that's upscaled five times from 64x64, since i don't remember any

the only 64x64 textures as far as i know are inventory icons, and they look like this at the highest HUD size setting on my 1080p monitor:
image.png.02c80e63196eb2bc1456035c1d97774a.png

if this looks blurry to you then i think you might have a different problem

1 hour ago, Warbucks said:

I want 64-bit DST because I heard other people say it’s the only way to have HD textures.

yes that's true, because higher resolution textures demands significantly more storage and more memory

here's my attempt at a simple way to explain how textures are stored for games:

let's say you want to store information about a picture

you have store it in a texture with dimensions that's a power of two, that means the length and width can only be 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, and so on (computers work more efficiently with these numbers)

this means if you want to scale up a 1024p texture by a step, you'd have to end up with a 2048p texture

then let's say the compression method you use stores 8 bits per pixel (like dxt5), and you settle for a 1024x512 texture

the size of this texture would be 1024*512*8 = 4194304 bits = 512.00 KiB (682.82 KiB with mipmaps)

now let's take it up by a step: 2048*1024*8 = 16777216 bits = 2,048.00 KiB (2,730.83 KiB with mipmaps)

and another step: 4096*2048*8 = 67108864 bits = 8,192.00 KiB (10,922.84 KiB with mipmaps)

basically: one step up needs 4x as much storage, two steps up needs 16x as much storage

now imagine doing that for nearly all textures in the game

1 hour ago, Warbucks said:

I even wouldn’t mind rebuying a 64-bit DST with 4k textures they did something similar with one of their other games, ninja or whatever.

most people, probably including you, own a 1080p monitor: i hope i don't have to explain why it's hilarious that you're willing to pay for 4096p textures

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
--- -.-    3,373

Yeah, at normal zoom it may look okay kind of, but still looks low quality. Leaves much to be desired when you play at closer zoom levels :(...

I don’t really want textures to be turned huuuge, I’d just like them to become clear instead of blurry at least for common things such as trees, rocks, grass, berry bushes, ect. this game has a nice artystyle and it’s a shame for that to all go away when you take a closer look at it...

 Klei already includes options for a “small textures” mode which makes the game look VERRRYYY bad, so instead of forcing high quality textures on everyone I would be fine with them adding a “Texture Quality” setting which you can choose between small, default, and high like basically almost every single game to exist! Also, just because we are a “minority” I don’t think it would be fair to dismiss the point entirely! I’ll have you know I’m not the only one who’d appreciate a high quality textures option, heck even on the general forums there’s a “screenshots” topic where dozens of people post their screenshots and that’s not including Steam users! So, a lot more people take screenshots than you think ;).

I wasn’t really talking about inventory icons, but now that you brought it up they should have an option to be higher quality too. I do get annoyed when I pick an item up from my inventory it looks very blurry. A great example of what Klei should add as a new setting would be some “HD Twigs Inventory Icon” mod or something that came out a while ago. All inventory items should have the setting to be high quality like that!

As for low quality textures, most stuff can be noticeable are very low res like flint, log, cutgrass, ash, tomato crop, spider, ect. to the point which they look like they’re jpeg artifacts in cases such as spiders, ugh...

Maybe a FULL HD textures wouldn’t be very easy to achieve (but Klei can definitely do it, they used to say DST is impossible and here we are) but I want at least very common to find things to be high quality then when you explore the world stuff can look good when you zoom in! It can be an option like I said! It’s about time we got more options to as Klei doesn’t seem keen on adding much except for trivial things like Wigfrid’s Umlauts (why is this an option before insanity volume)

Yes, I don’t own a 4k monitor, but what if I did and wanted to play DST in 4k? That would be nice. Also, I’m not the one who created a “remastered” version of one my games with 4k textures and then sold it for full price, Klei did with their Ninja game. So, I was just saaaying that if they wanted to do the same with DST I would be all for it because I would like a high quality DST and I’m sure there would be other people who buy a remastered DST with very high quality textures too!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
--- -.-    3,373
8 minutes ago, Jessie223 said:

please get your eyes checked

Ah, how respectfully passive aggressive of you, ma’am. You remind me of someone, I forgot what where they called again... JohnW...? Hmm, maybe you know what was their name ;)?

Anyways, I was speaking about small items, but of course you put a very big item and then switch to snarky mode, but if that’s how you want to be that tree is also low quality and not clear when zoomed in ;).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jessie223    790

other than certain items like grass suits, most items look fine, and that tree is zoomed all the way in

again, you have to get your eyes checked if you think this looks anywhere near blurry enough to sacrifice memory space for

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites